Brake Upgrade - 130 300tdi

[jay_guess]

Looking for advice. The brakes on my 130 are woeful at best when empty and shockingly bad when fully laden.

Looking for options to improve the standard set up. My thoughts so far



Replace pads with higher spec - options please
Replace discs and pads - perhaps something like a fixed c grove Alcon type?
Replace the lot with a big brake kit - I spoke to Bowler and their Alcon kit will fit under Standard WOLF rims, or so they say.


What are you thoughts? I'm really keen on significantly improving my braking. Cheers

[Bazzle218]

Before you throw money at it. Try the simple things. Check booster operation, they have form for cracking where master cyl bolts on. Adjust wheel bearings. Bleed brakes. My 130 twin cab stops no worries on standard brakes. Also use the gears to slow down and dont Mexican freewheel. Clutch in braking. Just my opinion.

[shack]

Before you throw money at it. Try the simple things. Check booster operation, they have form for cracking where master cyl bolts on. Adjust wheel bearings. Bleed brakes. My 130 twin cab stops no worries on standard brakes. Also use the gears to slow down and dont Mexican freewheel. Clutch in braking. Just my opinion.Yep do this.

We have 2 130 TDI's, one very heavy, if everything is stock and working, they are fine, as good as any vehicle.

As mentioned, cracked master cylinder, assist the vacuum pumps die after the master cylinder cracks.

With the engine off, pump the brake pedal several times... Then hold it in reasonable firmly while starting the engine, the pedal should sink in noticeably, if not, there's a vacuum problem.

[TonyC]

^^^
What has already been said.
I have had a cracked booster and it was OK under very light pedal pressure but the hader you push the worse the brakes got.

If you go the big brake route, 300Tdi 130 rims are NOT wolf rims, and have less clearance inside for brakes.

Tony

[AK83]

I'd say for sure do Shacks' recommendation of confirming vac pump operation. Very high likelyhood of it not vacuuming right. 300 tdi vac pumps are notorious for doing this.

Other simple and easy to upgrade/service ... fluid and hoses.
They may be old, and replacing can make enough of a difference.

HAD to do this on the D2 a while ago. The brakes felt woeful compared to the D1.
In the D1, I used 'ceramic' pads. Didn't realise the difference to initial bite that the pads could make(on the D1). I haven't (yet) updated the fluid/hoses on the D1 .. no time and a bit down the list of stuff to get done still.

But the D2 desperately needed shocks, chopped out bushes, so do it once and do it right. Got longer travel shocks and new coils, but of course previous owners 2" lifted suspension didn't include the pretty much required longer brake lines, and only found this out once stuff started to get disassembled. On full drop, lines were stretched to high heaven(idiots!). Anyhow once it was all seen, I ordered braided lines as you do. No pad change, but the D2 now brakes better than the D1 overall. Just still didn't on initial bite.

As I regularly swap between the D1 and D2, I have to adjust the braking. The D1 initially bites harder, but overall has less power(more pedal push needed as harder braking is needed), but the D2 had no initial bite, but needed less pedal for the same harder braking effect. Weird, but this is how it was.

But for sure the D2 really needed its braided lines, and then I recently changed pads to 'ceramics' too, and while it gave a slight initial better bite, it's only this part that hasn't really improved. Brother installed a set of some ebay cheapie pads after he got it years ago. So the pad change didn't seem to give as much an improvement as did the braided lines(and flushed fluid).

Also, without knowing your 130's setup, does it have 'big wheels' and a ton of accessories fitted that will affect braking too.

[jay_guess]

Thanks for all the advice will definitely look into the booster this weekend.

Running 33's Km2. Pretty much zero accessories - certainly no bling. It's my work ute / daily driver but is often at GVM carrying materials.

I understand the use of engine braking BUT this doesn't help when at GVM + GCM and an idiot P plater cuts in-front out you then slams the brakes on as the lights change red.

What pads are you guys running?

Cheers

[AK83]

My D1 had TRW pads(newly installed as well as discs all round when bought), and I changed to Repcos' ceramic pads (RCT or something). Super easy to get them, and like I said, I found that initially they felt an immediate improvement, but really it was only just the first (say) 10 or 20% of pressure, where the braking force was a lot more than I used to feel. Overall power tho ... they feel not so linear. Feels like I need a LOT more pressure for not so much more braking.

D2 had whatever unknown Chinesium pads that bro fitted, and when I did suspension, brake lines, etc I had a lot more time and found, what I thought a good balance between price and reputation. I got DBA ceramics online (from sparesbox) as they were on special at the time too. Hard to say if the better braking is due to lines, pads or both.

ps. its not just the idiot p platers either .. it's everyone! Drive heavy vehicles for a living and I know where you're coming from. [bighmmm]

But as already said, there are a few checks you can do with booster/vac pump ... etc, to be sure you actually have the power at your foot.

[MLD]

as for pads, sad to say but LR factory is the best all round in a defender. one of the few things they nailed as factory spec.

upgrading defender brakes is expensive and not always meet the cost reward equation. Without being held to figures, about 80% of braking performance comes from piston area. Defenders have pretty large pistons from factory. Attached is a spreadsheet of different callipers noted by piston area. Defender is 100% and the comparable callipers based as a % of that. 80 series are largely the same as defender and patrol is a meaningfully larger. Petrol GU have larger brakes again. The GM JB6 is a 3/4T truck calliper (2500HD) and JB7 is the 1T (3500). The 3/4T and 1T rotors are about 12" on the older trucks (pre 2010) and that calliper and rotor fit inside a 16" rim. The other relevant factor is Front to Rear brake bias. Land Rover is 2:1 from factory. 80 series is 1.77:1 (more rear bias) and GU patrol is 1.78:1. Conventional wisdom that ~2.5:1 for road cars and 4wds and tow vehicles are more rear bias.

In the schedule, i included callipers from the Wilwood catalogue that were larger (but not significantly so) than the defender. Only 2 callipers made the cut and both are 6 piston requiring 17" or larger rims.

The relevance of all the above, the UK aftermarket kits that are 6 piston callipers will offer braking improvement but they require an 18" rim and are numbingly expensive. I haven't seen the specs of the 4 piston front package but i'd bet my left testicle (no longer needed) that you will get something smaller than LR offer. Wilwood don't offer a 4 piston calliper larger than the defender. You need to fit a rear aftermarket kit to match the front 6 piston to have any remote prospect of maintaining the front to rear bias that is suitable for a 4wd, especially a working 130.

I did the above because i plan to build and fit dana 60 to the front and GM corporate 14 bolt in the rear both with 8 stud hubs (HD truck) and the brakes in the schedule are those that bolt on. I am also fitting hydroboost to the 130. Hydroboost offers +/- 3 times the braking assist compared to vacuum. It's overboard for a stock defender but i have a 6.6L LS (525hp/525 lbs-ft) engine to bolt in. I want/need stronger housings for a heavy 130 that will stop. Gazza Lloyd has hydroboost in his 130 with the Duramax and says it's a vast improvement even with stock rotors and callipers.

The long and short, if you must upgrade and money to burn, hydroboost will offer you equal or better braking performance at 25% the cost of a large brake kit from the UK. LRA sell a hydroboost kit. PowerBrakeService in US supply the same as the LRA kit and would be cheaper to source direct.

Having said all that, i agree with others that your problem rests in a failure or aged part of the system not the system itself.

[130camper]

1998 130 with built on camper, ended up gaining weight to have a standing weight of 3.5kg all the time, then in 2019 I got a GVM upgrade to 3850kg.

Basically all the above done and it brakes okay as far as I am concerned.

Done over a period of time:-
New booster - it was cracked.
Fitted electric vacuum pump - went to renew but found damaged drive lobe. (My son has just gone electric pump on his 130).
New master cylinder.
New pistons and seals in calipers.
Rotors replaced.
Braided Flexible lines.
Been using EBC Green Stuff Series 6000 pads from the UK. They probable wear out faster than other brands, but I reckon they give better braking.

Andrew

[86mud]

my 1998 130 runs around at 3.2t.

I use vented/cross drilled/slotted discs up front with genuine pads. Stainless steel braided hoses all around. Rears are standard discs and genuine pads


Brake Rotors PAIR Solid Front Cross Drilled Grooved RRC Disco 1 Defender FRC7329 (https://www.4wdindustries.com.au/brake-rotors-pair-solid-front-cross-drilled-groove'scid=346505&utm_campaign=PaidShoppingAds&utm_medium=Shopping&utm_source=RL&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9oP25IiSgQMVsJlmAh2JXAFjEAQYASAB EgKYa_D_BwE)







Check from cracked booster 186848

[jay_guess]

Yep do this.

We have 2 130 TDI's, one very heavy, if everything is stock and working, they are fine, as good as any vehicle.

As mentioned, cracked master cylinder, assist the vacuum pumps die after the master cylinder cracks.

With the engine off, pump the brake pedal several times... Then hold it in reasonable firmly while starting the engine, the pedal should sink in noticeably, if not, there's a vacuum problem.


Great thanks will test this today!

[Tins]

Mike has some info for you. Have to say, I hadn't thought of the crankcase pressure angle before...


https://youtu.be/0Fcrvs9x8Vc'si=0YgOUwyzVLtb6QWo

[123rover50]

I just converted to discs but found not much improvement so I put a pressure gauge on the bleed nipples and I am getting 1250 odd PSI from all of them. Anyone else get a pressure reading for comparison?
Keith

[Red90]

I just converted to discs but found not much improvement so I put a pressure gauge on the bleed nipples and I am getting 1250 odd PSI from all of them. Anyone else get a pressure reading for comparison?
Keith

What vehicle are we talking about and what year?

Why would you think discs would improve braking performance?