Not firing after major work tdv6

[Bulletman]

Gday All

Looking at ideas on what possible causes are stopping the engine from firing after basically a top end rebuild. The engine cranks and has been bled as the manual says to do it so i can cross off the lpfp , plus i loosened the pipes on the fuel rail and injectors and have fuel at these locations.
Things i know that are right..
-Timing is good.. i checked it atleast 10 times and it was timed correctly
- the injectors were marked and stored in seperate bags and the electrical connectors were also numbered so im positive they are correct
- i dont have any electrical connection left un connected and am confident they are all connected to the right place.
- i dont have any codes showing.. im assuming a faulty crank or cam senser would throw a code even in the cranking stage ??

I have tomorrow off so will connect the gap tool and see if it reveals anything but my general thought are either the hpfp which is about 4 yrs old or a crank or cam sensor.. i cant think of much else that will stop it firing..

Any suggestion of things to check with the gap tool when i have it hooked up will be appreciated.

Cheers Bulletman

[loanrangie]

They can be hard to bleed from what i've read, mine only took 2 or 3 cranks to fire up after having all the injectors and fuel lines off.
GAP tool will be your best bet.

[DazzaTD5]

when you say you bled it....

as noted some fire straight up, others not so.

I bleed the line from the Schrader valve that I connect a clear tube going to a gauge that has a pressure relief button on it.
ignition on sit there and watch for all the air, noting the pressure from the low pressure pump, 6 - 8 psi, wait for the pump to time out, ignition off, repeat until there are no bubble left.
this might be anywhere from 10 times to 20 times.

*Injectors dont need to be marked 1 - 6, its nothing more than a best workshop practice when working on lots of different engines.
*unlikely a failed cam or crank sensor unless you have damaged them or wiring.

[shack]

As above...

And I'd be hooking up the gap tool, find rail pressure and see if it's building when you crank... Mine wasn't after I had some fuel system parts off, I had to replace the HPFP.

I think one of valves maxed out when trying to build pressure and stayed there, or the inverse of what I just said.. Either way it wouldn't build pressure.

[DiscoJeffster]

When I did my injectors, I ended up killing the battery such that the vehicle would crank, but the voltage was dropping low enough that the ECU wasn’t firing the injectors. I think Dazza has it, but worth considering battery health as well for the extended cranking.

New battery and started up after a short crank cycle.

[Bulletman]

Ok so im positive its not air in the system.. i had trouble making shrader valve fittings work without ****ing fuel out so i removed the valve centre and i filled a couple of 1ltr glass jars with no hint of airation and i dont have a pressure guage but how easily and quickly that filled would tell me the lpfp is certainly pumping plenty of fuel.

Connected the gap tool and the fuel pressure rised to 630kpa but fluctuates between about 480 and the 630 the longer i crank..

Are there and other things i should be checking..

The only faults logging is a suspension fault as the car is on the bump stops.
The battery is fully charged and is only 6 months old so im positive its not voltage related

Any suggestions greatly appreciated

Cheers Bulletman

[Bulletman]

Ive gone back and rechecked the timing and that is definately correct.. i guess next step is change out the cam sensor as im guessing thats something that could stop it running altho i would suspect it to show as a fault but maybe that only happens if/when the engine is running ..

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

You’ve got a gap tool. Use the live data and read the sensors and confirm the signals are showing. Plot them.

[Graeme]

Watch or graph the rpm while cranking to determine if the crank sensor is working.

A faulty camshaft sensor should log a fault if the crankshaft sensor is working but no faults logged if nothing from the crankshaft sensor.

[Bulletman]

I may have found a problem ... both the solid high pressure pipes that go to each fuel rain are leaking at the hpfp and its possible the pressure drop is enough not to fire the engine.. couldnt really tell i had the leaks till the boss arrived home and had someone to crank the engine whilst i could have a close look.

Trying to tighten them turned into damaging them but i did notice the fuel pressure did increase up to 1300kpa before i stopped and called it a day

Funnily i dont seem to have the fuel rail pressure option on my gap tool....

So its now source some pipes and those bloody fuel return line clips as 2 of those bloody things disappeared into the depths of the engine..

Cheers Bulletman

[DiscoJeffster]

That would make sense. If the high pressure side is bleeding out then it won’t fire the injectors - not until the pressure is high enough.

Fuel rail pressure at start is around 8000psi dropping to around 6000psi idling on my car as a guide.

[BradC]

Manual says : "During starting, the fuel rail pressure must be at least 150 bar. Should the pressure be below this figure, the
injectors will not operate, resulting in the vehicle not starting."

That's 2175 PSI.

1300kPa is 13 Bar. The sensor is probably bottoming out at that (lack of) pressure.

Those lines are single use only, because like an olive union they're a crush fit. When I bought them in 2019 they were $55 each from an Indy. Yes I know in theory they can be re-used, but .....

Edit : Part Numbers :
LR004715 - Fuel Pipe
LR004714 - Fuel Pipe

[DazzaTD5]

and those bloody fuel return line clips as 2 of those bloody things disappeared into the depths of the engine..



did i not say in your priv msg to me that i have plenty of these clips?

far better people ask questions in the thread rather than contacting me directly...

[Narangga]

did i not say in your priv msg to me that i have plenty of these clips?

far better people ask questions in the thread rather than contacting me directly...

Agreed.

However it's nice to know someone has finally given Bulletman a decent clip... [bigwhistle]

[Chivalry]

Given that you state to be from 'McGowanstan' and that good ol Dazza has offered assistance in one way or another... Book it in and pay the bloke to solve your issue? He knows his ****.

[Bulletman]

Maybe i should have read the manual better , didnt realise steel injector pipes were single use only..

Thanks Brad for the part numbers and also thanks to Dazza for his offer of parts..

I have put in an order for new parts so hopefully that will solve my issues..

Cheers Bulletman

[loanrangie]

Maybe i should have read the manual better , didnt realise steel injector pipes were single use only..

Thanks Brad for the part numbers and also thanks to Dazza for his offer of parts..

I have put in an order for new parts so hopefully that will solve my issues..

Cheers Bulletman

They can be reused but you risk a leak if you didn't put them back in order.

[DazzaTD5]

*If one uses some very fine emery paper round 1200 (or if u have courser, rub 2 pieces together) and clean the end of the pipe, then clean it all with some brake clean, diesel whatever the pipes wont leak.
*When you fit the pipes use a bit of lube, be it a small amount of grease or diesel.

some exceptions to the workshop rule is:
*Engines with internal injectors and internal pipes, use new pipes as you cant see a leak (internal as in internal to the cam/rocker/valve cover). (Hino / some Toyota engines)
*The Ford engines used in the Defender TDCi the pipes will rarely ever seal again and do require new pipes when doing the injectors.

P.S if one followed word for word everything said in a workshop manual then just about every bolt you ever undid you would have to replace.

[Tins]

P.S if one followed word for word everything said in a workshop manual then just about every bolt you ever undid you would have to replace.

Given the current prices for copper I would have "discarded" a fortune if I followed WS manuals scrupulously about copper washers.

[Farrengui]

Hello I have a 2016 RR HSE TDV6 3.0 and I did the exact same thing fully rebuilt the engine. New Timing Belt, New cam timing chains, new lifters, new oil pump, New head gaskets. Changed the HPFP, installed it, and not firing. Seems like there is a fuel issue.

Starts with starter fluid, but backfires in the intake

Bled the fuel lines … Nothing
We checked the timing and it was 2 teeth off, adjusted and nothing.
Checked the Cam Sensors and we get rpm’s

One of the things we are currently thinking about is maybe the injectors were placed in the wrong locations

Does anyone have any idea what else we could check ?

After reading the other posts, does the TDV6 3.0 have the same fuel lines as the 2.7 TDV6.

Thanks in advance for your advice

[Bulletman]

Hello I have a 2016 RR HSE TDV6 3.0 and I did the exact same thing fully rebuilt the engine. New Timing Belt, New cam timing chains, new lifters, new oil pump, New head gaskets. Changed the HPFP, installed it, and not firing. Seems like there is a fuel issue.

Starts with starter fluid, but backfires in the intake

Bled the fuel lines … Nothing
We checked the timing and it was 2 teeth off, adjusted and nothing.
Checked the Cam Sensors and we get rpm’s

One of the things we are currently thinking about is maybe the injectors were placed in the wrong locations

Does anyone have any idea what else we could check ?

After reading the other posts, does the TDV6 3.0 have the same fuel lines as the 2.7 TDV6.


Thanks in advance for your advice

My understanding is the 3.0ltr high press fuel pump needs to be timed to the engine so if you engine timing was out then maybe your new high press fuel pump has been mis-timed as well..

Im sure someone with more knowledge of the 3.0 ltr engine will clarify if im correct about the hpfp needing to be timed.

Good luck with it..

Cheers Bulletman

[shack]

One of the things we are currently thinking about is maybe the injectors were placed in the wrong locations



Care to elaborate on this comment? I'm confused!


And yes, the 3.0l HPFP timing needs to be set.

[RANDLOVER]

Care to elaborate on this comment? I'm confused!


And yes, the 3.0l HPFP timing needs to be set.

Pro'ly applies more to the injector wiring?

[DiscoJeffster]

The 3L codes each injector to the ECU in each slot for optimum fuel efficiency. That said, it won’t stop it starting if the wrong coded ones are in the wrong spot etc. It may just not run as smoothly as expected.

[Farrengui]

My understanding is the 3.0ltr high press fuel pump needs to be timed to the engine so if you engine timing was out then maybe your new high press fuel pump has been mis-timed as well..

Im sure someone with more knowledge of the 3.0 ltr engine will clarify if im correct about the hpfp needing to be timed.

Good luck with it..

Cheers Bulletman

Yes it needs to be timed, and it was timed correctly and confirmed to be functioning properly

[Farrengui]

The 3L codes each injector to the ECU in each slot for optimum fuel efficiency. That said, it won’t stop it starting if the wrong coded ones are in the wrong spot etc. It may just not run as smoothly as expected.

That’s heartbreaking because that was my last hope … is there anything else I could check ? I just want to get it started to run on its own instead of running on starter fluid

[DiscoJeffster]

That’s heartbreaking because that was my last hope … is there anything else I could check ? I just want to get it started to run on its own instead of running on starter fluid

What fuel pressure do you have whilst it’s cranking? If it’s not high enough it won’t fire.

[Farrengui]

Hey guys thanks for the feedback, so here is an update, the fuel pressure is spot on to spec, the only issue now is the Crank Position Sensor. It may be a faulty sensor, or the shop that has it says that the Crank Position Sensor has to be “Indexed” which as I understand is gapping like spark plugs. Can someone comment if that is a real thing that can cause it not to start, incorrect crank position sensor gapping ? Does The transmission have to be dropped to correctly index it ? Thanks for the input

[DazzaTD5]

Hey guys thanks for the feedback, so here is an update, the fuel pressure is spot on to spec, the only issue now is the Crank Position Sensor. It may be a faulty sensor, or the shop that has it says that the Crank Position Sensor has to be “Indexed” which as I understand is gapping like spark plugs. Can someone comment if that is a real thing that can cause it not to start, incorrect crank position sensor gapping ? Does The transmission have to be dropped to correctly index it ? Thanks for the input

*whomever rebuilt the engine did they fit the crankshaft tone ring in the correct spot?
*when setting the tone ring, you follow the fitting instructions in the workshop manual.
*the crankshaft sensor has a small retaining bolt, it can only go in a set position.
*to fit the tone ring you need to drop the auto.
*the sensor with enough other bits removed, front diff dropped down etc, can be removed/replaced without dropping the transmission.
*the HPFP while it is timed, wont stop it running or starting if the timing on it is out.
*injectors dont need to go back in the same spot.

[PeterOZ]

mate did you get it sorted?

[Bulletman]

Yes its up and running.. the fuel leaking on the hpfp didnt allow for enough pressure... once fuel lines were fitted that didnt leak it fired on the 2nd crank.

Thanks to all for their input and a big thanks to Dazza for his help and offer of parts

Cheers Bulletman