Bought a 100Ah Lithium for $399

[p38arover]

EDIT: I've moved this thread as the sale is over and there's been a bit of discussion about this.

As you can guess, I bought one.

-----------------

Jaycar are selling a 12v 100Ah lithium battery for $399 (allegedly $500 off, i.e., usually $899) until Sunday 22nd Oct.

12.8V 100Ah Lithium Deep Cycle Battery | Jaycar Electronics (https://www.jaycar.com.au/12-8v-100ah-lithium-deep-cycle-battery/p/SB2215?utm_content=SB2215&email&tc&tc-oct23)

[p38arover]

Dunno if I've done the right thing but I bought one today. My 2 x 45Ah deep cycle AGMs are pretty much dead so I plan to replace them with this. The problem now is how to charge it. I might need to replace my dual battery isolator.

[V8Ian]

Read the linked ad, Ron. You'll need a DC DC charger.

[V8Ian]

I'm a bit wary of these type of battery, especially entry level priced ones.

[drivesafe]

Hi Ron and for the price, they are OK.

From the specs, you should at least be able to get the full 100Ah when using it. A lot of other lithium batteries will only supply around 80% if you are lucky.

But the current limits are not that good. You could not power an induction cooker or a microwave oven.

The cycle rate is well bellow average.

And yes the only safe way to charge that specific battery is with a DC/DC device even though your L322 could have charged some other lithium brands direct from your alternator.

[Red90]

100Ah Deep Cycle Battery, Lithium Ion Batteries | Renogy Australia (https://au.renogy.com/core-12v-24v-48v-100ah-deep-cycle-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery/)

[p38arover]

I'm a bit wary of these type of battery, especially entry level priced ones.

So am I. I agonised over it.

I’ve bought a Kings DC/DC charger that was on special. I have solar panels.

I only want it to run my Engel fridge plus some lighting. The AGMs I had used to be depleted too quickly.

[drivesafe]

So am I. I agonised over it.

I’ve bought a Kings DC/DC charger that was on special. I have solar panels.

I only want it to run my Engel fridge plus some lighting. The AGMs I had used to be depleted too quickly.

As you are not using it for high current applications, that battery should be fine for what you intend, just going to take much longer to recharge.

[drivesafe]

100Ah Deep Cycle Battery, Lithium Ion Batteries | Renogy Australia (https://au.renogy.com/core-12v-24v-48v-100ah-deep-cycle-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery/)
Hi Red90 and that battery is not much better than the other battery.

They state their battery can be discharged up to 100 amps but that has nothing to do with the CONTINUOUS discharge rate.

[Red90]

Hi Red90 and that battery is not much better than the other battery.

They state their battery can be discharged up to 100 amps but that has nothing to do with the CONTINUOUS discharge rate.

Maximum Continuous Discharge Current 100A
Peak Discharge Current 300A@10s
Cycle Life(0.5C/1C, 25℃) 5000 Cycles (80% DOD 80% EOL)

These are as good as anything out there.

https://au.renogy.com/content/battery%20new/100%20core/RBT12100-SPEC.pdf

[drivesafe]

Maximum Continuous Discharge Current 100A
Peak Discharge Current 300A@10s
Cycle Life(0.5C/1C, 25℃) 5000 Cycles (80% DOD 80% EOL)

These are as good as anything out there.

https://au.renogy.com/content/battery%20new/100%20core/RBT12100-SPEC.pdf
Those specs are a lot more useful than the info supplied on the Australian site.

At the price they have them at right now, you should get your moneys worth.

The problem is that the lithium battery market is a mine field and it is hard to find out everything you need to know.

For example, there are heaps of lead acid batteries that are suppling with 3 year warranties, yet on average, 4 or 5 years of use is all you can expect.

But they claim 10+ year life expectancy for lithium batteries but only offer 2 to 3 year warranties.

Furthermore, there is now a major problem showing up with lithium batteries being used under the bonnet.

Even the so called Drop-Ins, which are marketed as being designed to use in the engine bay, are failing after 2, to 3 years, and they are NOT cheap.

Although it may not sound like it but I am a big fan of lithium batteries, but sorting good from bad is almost impossible.

[p38arover]

Furthermore, there is now a major problem showing up with lithium batteries being used under the bonnet.


Mine will be in the right rear quarter of the car below the electrics (Tim knows where I mean). The depth of that area isn't quite deep enough for a 100Ah battery so it will protrude upward (that's the reason I had 2x45Ah AGM Deep Cycles in there).

[Graeme]

My 105AH AGM fits there, albeit with a small section of the plastic under the floor cover removed.

[Red90]

Those specs are a lot more useful than the info supplied on the Australian site.

The specs I posted are directly from the Australian page that I linked.

[Red90]

Make sure your charger has a remote temperature sensor that can be placed with the battery. It is important that the charger adjust for temperature especially with a cheaper battery that may not have a great onboard BMS.

[loanrangie]

Those specs are a lot more useful than the info supplied on the Australian site.

At the price they have them at right now, you should get your moneys worth.

The problem is that the lithium battery market is a mine field and it is hard to find out everything you need to know.

For example, there are heaps of lead acid batteries that are suppling with 3 year warranties, yet on average, 4 or 5 years of use is all you can expect.

But they claim 10+ year life expectancy for lithium batteries but only offer 2 to 3 year warranties.

Furthermore, there is now a major problem showing up with lithium batteries being used under the bonnet.

Even the so called Drop-Ins, which are marketed as being designed to use in the engine bay, are failing after 2, to 3 years, and they are NOT cheap.

Although it may not sound like it but I am a big fan of lithium batteries, but sorting good from bad is almost impossible.


Tim, would this battery charge correctly with your SC80 ?

[drivesafe]

Tim, would this battery charge correctly with your SC80 ?
Hi Loanranger, what vehicle is this in?

Your D3 would be fine and your Kombi would be perfect for lithium battery use.

It will work in some vehicles but not in others, like D4s.

With D4s, you must use a DC/DC device.

Also note, no lithium batteries should be mounted in an engine bay. Thats cranking batteries or auxiliary batteries.

This is proving to be a big problem with lithium battery use

[loanrangie]

Hi Loanranger, what vehicle is this in?

Your D3 would be fine and your Kombi would be perfect for lithium battery use.

It will work in some vehicles but not in others, like D4s.

With D4s, you must use a DC/DC device.

Also note, no lithium batteries should be mounted in an engine bay. Thats cranking batteries or auxiliary batteries.

This is proving to be a big problem with lithium battery use

Yep in my D3, even in the aux compartment on the drivers side ? I've not found it to be excessively warm in that spot and my AGM has been there for 5 years but starting to show its age.

[drivesafe]

Yep in my D3, even in the aux compartment on the drivers side ? I've not found it to be excessively warm in that spot and my AGM has been there for 5 years but starting to show its age.
Hi again Loanranger and I strongly recommend against mounting a lithium battery where you plan.

There have been a number of D4s with cranking and auxiliary batteries fitted under the bonnet and they have not lasted 3 years.

The cranking battery in a D4 is in a similar environment to your D3 auxiliary compartment so, NOT a recommended location.

Your lithium battery needs to be mounted somewhere in the cab.

There are now so many reports from all different makes of vehicles, where lithium batteries, both cranking and auxiliary batteries, are failing in as little as 18 months in some cases.

But when mounted in the cab, there does not seem to be a problem.

[p38arover]

Re the 100Ah lithium battery to replace the failing deep cycle AGM House batteries in the Rangie, I also bought a Kings 25A DC/DC charger that has both an alternator input and solar input. For a test I connected my rigid 2x80w solar panels to the charger to test it and charge the battery.

The charger has an in-built MPPT (allegedly) regulator so I bypassed the panel PWM regulator.

Today, with full sun and the panels perpendicular to the sun’s rays, the best I saw was 4.78A @ 14.37V (68W) into the battery. The panels are rated (under ideal conditions) at 8.76A with the panels at max power voltage of 18.25V (8.76A x18.25V = 160W).

I wonder how accurate the panel ratings are.

Previously, when camped in full sunlight, using the supplied PWM controller, I’d often see 7A into the AGMs. Another oddity of this controller is that if the panels are briefly shaded, it can take a minute or more before the controller starts letting current flow into the battery. The PWM controller let current flow immediately. Not good if there are clouds scudding across the sky.

I’d always believed that an MPPT controller was significantly better than a PWM controller. In fact, I built an MPPT controller from a Silicon Chip design to replace the PWM but, because of COVID, I haven’t been camping to really test it. I’m not sure that I can use it on the lithium for a comparison.

[p38arover]

Further to above, even a partial shading of the panels kills the output from the DC/DC charger with quite a delay before charging recommences when the shading is removed.

I'm about to put the old AGM batteries out of the Rangie. I'll connect them to the solar panels via:

(a) the PWM controller that came with the panels, and then,
(b) the MPPT controller that I built,

to see what happens when partially shaded and to see the recovery time to recommence charging. I'm also interested in the charge current. As I mentioned above, I had previously seen around 7A charging into the AGMs when camped.

The present charging performance of the MPPT controller in the Kings 25A DC/DC Charger is, to my mind, unacceptable.

This is the charger I bought but it was on "special" for $169. I didn't pay their full price of $299. I wouldn't have bought it at that price.

Kings 25A DC_DC Charger (https://www.4wdsupacentre.com.au/products/battery-charger/dc-charger-combo-deals/kings-25a-dcdc-charger.html)

Would I recommend this charger? Not at the moment.

[Red90]

At 14.37 V, the charger is limiting current to hold at that voltage.

[p38arover]

Ahh, thank you. I hadn't thought of that. It's on float now and the battery terminal voltage is 13.65V - the spec sheet says 13.6V float.

[drivesafe]

Hi Ron and hate to ask the obvious, but are the lithiums already fully charged or it a decent discharged state.

Just like Lead Acid batteries, once a lithium battery is fully charged, regardless of the voltage being applied by the solar regulator, the battery governs how much current it will draw.

The batteries need to be discharged down to at least 75% SoC or they may not draw the full current available from the solar regulator.

The reason I ask is that you stated you were seeing full voltage but lower than expected current.

Lithium batteries in a lower that fully charged state, will draw full CURRENT but cause the solar regulator ( any brand ) to run at a lower voltage.

This is not what you are seeing.

[p38arover]

Thanks Tim.

When I got the battery I'm sure I saw something about it not being fully charged but I can't find it now.

The battery has been on the solar charger for a few days and seems to have topped out with an input of 46Ah.

That would seem to indicate it was at roughly 50% capacity when I brought it home.

The discharge curve is pretty flat, is it accurate enough to determine SOC like one does with a lead-acid battery? This curve is from their spec sheet.

187544

Compared with your lead-acid SOC chart:

187546

I didn't know if I could/should use my Traxide SC80 with this set up.

As a side note, when I bought the lithium, the full retail was $899. I looked at the Jaycar website a few minutes ago to download the spec sheet. New price is now $949.

[drivesafe]

Hi again Ron and the CHARGE graph is for a DC/DC device or 240vac Battery Charger or a Solar Regulator.

These three charging devices are known as CONSTANT CURRENT chargers.

Alternators, because of the very high current output, are Constant VOLTAGE charging devices.

If you charge directly from the alternator, via your SC80, you will have a totally different charge curve.

Looks like you did well on the price!

Also note, that charge graph does tell the whole story.

Where the graph peaks at the end, your lithium battery may still only be about 85 to 95% charged and the last section of the charge ( the Absorption stage ) could easily take many hours to get your LITHIUM battery to 100%.

[Red90]

Ahh, thank you. I hadn't thought of that. It's on float now and the battery terminal voltage is 13.65V - the spec sheet says 13.6V float.

The charger should not drop to a float voltage with a lithium battery. It should hold at 14.4. A lower float voltage is for lead acid battery charging.

[p38arover]

The charger should not drop to a float voltage with a lithium battery. It should hold at 14.4. A lower float voltage is for lead acid battery charging.

Yes, the battery label shows the float voltage at 14.6V.

The DC/DC charger Charging Voltage Limits section shows 14.5V charging and 13.6V float.

I'm confused.

[drivesafe]

The correct way to charge a Lithium battery is to bulk charge to the Absorption stage and then once the lithium battery is fully charged, turn the charging totally OFF.

This applies to good quality 240VAC battery chargers and Solar regulators.

But with DC/DC devices, it is pretty well irrelevant because, unlike 240VAC battery chargers and to a lesser extent,Solar regulators, where they can be charging for many hours, DC/DC device charging time is limited to the actual drive time of the vehicle.

Having a DC/DC device go into FLOAT mode is not going to harm a lithium battery while driving, but when a DC/DC device is being used as a Solar regulator, not so sure I would be all that happy, but it still shouldn’t harm a lithium battery, just not best practice for lithium battery charging.

[p38arover]

My 105AH AGM fits there, albeit with a small section of the plastic under the floor cover removed.

This one is a bit tall. I may have to buy another plastic thingo and trim it significantly. The other option is to put the battery in a battery box and just mount that in the boot - somewhere.

[drivesafe]

This one is a bit tall. I may have to buy another plastic thingo and trim it significantly. The other option is to put the battery in a battery box and just mount that in the boot - somewhere.
Just a suggestion Ron, but if you use a plastic battery box, you could mount your DC/DC device on the top or side and have an Anderson plug setup, to connect it to your vehicle cabling.

This would not only make it easy to fit and remove but would give you a portable power supply.

[V8Ian]

Just a suggestion Ron, but if you use a plastic battery box, you could mount your DC/DC device on the top or side and have an Anderson plug setup, to connect it to your vehicle cabling.

This would not only make it easy to fit and remove but would give you a portable power supply.
Pretty much what I did. There is enough room to mount an SC 80 inside the lid, making the auxiliary battery portable and stand alone.

[p38arover]

A while back I picked up at a swap meet, for $10, an ARK battery box that has an in-built charger - but for a lead-acid battery. 😫

This the plastic bit that would need a lot of hacking.

187655

You can see how high the battery sits.

187656

I’ll look into the DC-DC charger mounted on a battery box idea. The battery is only required when I go camping so it can be attached to my drawer system which only goes in when camping.

I might be able to re-purpose my control panel rather than building a new one.

(Pix out of focus 'coz I used my iPhone. I can never get the pix in focus with it.)
187654

[p38arover]

SuperCrap have a battery box on special at the moment for $39, It comes fitted with 2 x Anderson plugs, a voltmeter and 2 cigarette lighter sockets, and it's fused.

XTM Powered Battery Box with USB & Accessory Socket | Supercheap Auto (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/xtm-4x4-accessories-xtm-battery-power-box-with-usb-and-cig-socket/575922.html#q=battery%2Bbox&lang=en_AU&start=1)

So I just bought one.

[V8Ian]

SuperCrap have a battery box on special at the moment for $39, It comes fitted with 2 x Anderson plugs, a voltmeter and 2 cigarette lighter sockets, and it's fused.

XTM Powered Battery Box with USB & Accessory Socket | Supercheap Auto (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/xtm-4x4-accessories-xtm-battery-power-box-with-usb-and-cig-socket/575922.html#q=battery%2Bbox&lang=en_AU&start=1)

So I just bought one.
Sounds like it comes from the same Chinese factory as the Kings version.

[drivesafe]

Hi again Ron. I have had a couple of customers fit larger AGMs in the back where you plan to fit the Lithium.

They had to modify the base plate like you suggested you will need to do, but they they also had to cut about 15mm of the bottom edge of the panel that covers the fuses.

[p38arover]

they they also had to cut about 15mm of the bottom edge of the panel that covers the fuses.

Do you mean the concave panel? I have a spare one of those - I bought it in case I needed to hack one about doing the dual battery setup.

[drivesafe]

Do you mean the concave panel? I have a spare one of those - I bought it in case I needed to hack one about doing the dual battery setup.
Yep, thats the one.