Solar and Wind power - Installing a wind generator

[JDNSW]

As my house is some distance from the nearest power lines, when we built here we installed solar power. This has now been operational for eleven years.
Backup is by a generator (originally petrol, now diesel), which makes up the shortfall due to cloudy days or grandchildren who watch too much television and leave the fridge open. I have considered increasing the capacity of the system, or getting more economical fridge, freezer & TV, but all options are expensive.
But recently the electronics supply place Jaycar has listed a cheap wind generator. Cheap as in $500 for 200w (c.f. 85w solar panel is over $600 - and solar is good for a maximum of about 12hours a day compared with a maximum of 24hrs for wind). It is made in China, as you may have guessed.

On my recent trip to Melbourne I bought one (they weigh in at 71kg so was worth saving the freight), and I am currently starting to install it.

First step is to refurbish an old windmill tower I bought for $90 about ten years ago, and modifying it to accept the generator. Then have to prepare foundations and erect the tower, and fit the generator and wire the whole lot up.

The generator will require a bit of preparation - the case is plastic, and this will have to be protected from the sun - I will add an aluminium extra cover, and the blades will need to be painted - they are unpainted fibreglass. Probably take me at least another week to do all this, perhaps more, depending on how much I get sidetracked.

I will assess the performance over the next year or so, and if it performs as I hope, I will get at least one more, possibly another three. Having wind as well as solar is complementary, as often there is wind when there is cloud.

John

[dobbo]

John, I'm just about to upgrade the washing machine at home. The washer I've got still works but just drops lint on everything. It's a Fysher and Pykel SmartDrive. The motors on these can be simply rewired to operate as a wind powered generator. Do a google search for the mod and see if you are interested in doing it. Have you seen the Rainbow Power Company website? Very imformative. The only reason I haven't done anything like this yet is simply because we live in suburbia and just rent the place. When we buy land a S.A.P.S will definately be on the cards.

[George130]

Friend who bought a property in bredbo had only solar. The system was on its last legs so he paid the $30,000 to get mains power rather than replace the system. Got to be honest I would have looked into solar and wind if I was him. Good luck JD.

Also they are putting in one of those wind farm generators 15km from here. Should make enough wind to realy dry the washing:D .

[JDNSW]

John, I'm just about to upgrade the washing machine at home. The washer I've got still works but just drops lint on everything. It's a Fysher and Pykel SmartDrive. The motors on these can be simply rewired to operate as a wind powered generator. Do a google search for the mod and see if you are interested in doing it. Have you seen the Rainbow Power Company website? Very imformative. The only reason I haven't done anything like this yet is simply because we live in suburbia and just rent the place. When we buy land a S.A.P.S will definately be on the cards.

1. I'm aware of the washing machine derived generator, and was sort of on the lookout for one - but this cannot compete with the Chinese one - it would cost close to as much and a lot more work for less power. This was described in 'Silicon Chip' about a year ago. But if you are offering the machine I am interested - where are you?

2. I have not seen the Rainbow Power Company website, but I have some of their books and have visited them. I was disappointed that they were not interested in tendering for our original installation.
John

2.

[dobbo]

When I looked into it when we lived down at Young it was going to cost $30,000 for a hybrid system. A back up generator was extra (I consider this a must) then the photovoltaic panels only last 20 - 25 yrs tops, the batteries last 5 - 10 yrs top. The motors, invertors, computers, etc all had a 5 yr warrantee. So worst case scenerio. Every couple of yrs youd be upgrading equip.
That block was $25,000 to get connected to the grid.

In that case it simply wasn't viable to do it. Nowadays the government subsidy for a back to grid system has gone as well.

[dobbo]

www.rpc.com.au (http://www.rpc.com.au)
Rainbow Power company website


Washer would be a month or two down the track. I'm at Bonnells Bay SW Lake Macquarie (a bit to far for you to drive for a washer I think?) but I'll PM you when it's replaced

[JDNSW]

When I looked into it when we lived down at Young it was going to cost $30,000 for a hybrid system. A back up generator was extra (I consider this a must) then the photovoltaic panels only last 20 - 25 yrs tops, the batteries last 5 - 10 yrs top. The motors, invertors, computers, etc all had a 5 yr warrantee. So worst case scenerio. Every couple of yrs youd be upgrading equip.
That block was $25,000 to get connected to the grid.

In that case it simply wasn't viable to do it. Nowadays the government subsidy for a back to grid system has gone as well.
When we put the system in it cost around $30,000, the same as getting grid power. In the first year we used one tank of fuel in the generator - it has increased since then, not sure whether less sun, batteries degrading or fridge getting older. Possibly all of the above. Certainly you need a backup generator - our original one was a small second hand petrol one, cost $400, current one is a second hand Lister diesel, cost $800.
Actual life of the panels is still unknown - mine at twelve years are giving the same output as when new, and I have seen twenty year old ones that are down less than 1%. But both my trackers have quit, and the manufacturer no longer exists and you can't get parts - can't even get a circuit diagram, and the components on the boards have deliberately had the numbers filed off.
I am replacing cells in the batteries as they fail, and so far have replaced about 25% of them, so ten years tops is a bit pessimistic. Nevertheless, batteries are the major ongoing cost - but overall probably no more, perhaps less, than power bills. Inverters, controllers, chargers only had five year warranty as you point out, but the only failure among them in twelve years was the spectacular failure of one inverter about five hours after initial installation, apparently due to a loose screw floating round in the case.(obviously a warranty job).

The major negative is you have to be careful about power use, and airconditioning is out, and there is more attention to maintenance needed (it is not a fully automatic system - but this has advantages; I know of one bloke is on his third autostart diesel generator in six years (at about $6000 a shot) - the autostart does not check or change the oil, and by the time the watchdog shuts it off due to low oil pressure, the damage is done.)

On the plus side - we have no blackouts, which have been widespread in this area after several severe storms - some of my neighbours have been without power for up to a week.
John

[dobbo]

John are you designing your own windmill or would you in the future? I found blade calculators on the internet to assist in design. If your interested send me your email via PM and I'll forward them on to you. Also just out of interest how many battery banks are you running? And are the in series?

Is the power the only green system you have or have you got grey water systems, composite toilets, etc...

[JDNSW]

John are you designing your own windmill or would you in the future? I found blade calculators on the internet to assist in design. If your interested send me your email via PM and I'll forward them on to you. Also just out of interest how many battery banks are you running? And are the in series?

Is the power the only green system you have or have you got grey water systems, composite toilets, etc...

I am not designing my own windmill - as I said the Chinese one is so cheap it is not worth it. What I am doing is improving its UV protection and making up a mount to fit it on the top of the windmill frame i have.

I am actually running three battery banks, all independent. One is a small (400AH, 12v) system that provides 12v to the house for the UHF plus runs a circuit designed to supply power for small applications that are on all the time - mainly the fax machine and modem from a 250VA inverter It has four forty watt panels. Then there are two identical 24v systems with 700AH batteries and a 2kVA (6kVA for thirty seconds) inverter. Each has a tracker (now dead) with eight 80W panels. At a pinch either can run the house in case of a failure somewhere. The house is wired with three separate power circuits, with power points colour coded, so you can share the load fairly evenly.

The only other system I have that could be called green is the house itself, which has insulated walls and double glazing, and has heating provided by hot water circulating in the slab from a slow combustion wood stove in the kitchen.

Hope this answers your questions.
John

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I am not designing my own windmill - as I said the Chinese one is so cheap it is not worth it. What I am doing is improving its UV protection and making up a mount to fit it on the top of the windmill frame i have.

I am actually running three battery banks, all independent. One is a small (400AH, 12v) system that provides 12v to the house for the UHF plus runs a circuit designed to supply power for small applications that are on all the time - mainly the fax machine and modem from a 250VA inverter It has four forty watt panels. Then there are two identical 24v systems with 700AH batteries and a 2kVA (6kVA for thirty seconds) inverter. Each has a tracker (now dead) with eight 80W panels. At a pinch either can run the house in case of a failure somewhere. The house is wired with three separate power circuits, with power points colour coded, so you can share the load fairly evenly.

The only other system I have that could be called green is the house itself, which has insulated walls and double glazing, and has heating provided by hot water circulating in the slab from a slow combustion wood stove in the kitchen.

Hope this answers your questions.
John
From my knowledge of aircraft and model aircraft I would suggest that the further you can get it off the ground, the more wind it will be operating in. Depending on the terrain, windshear can be quite pronounced. (this is the tendency of air to be moving much slower closer to the ground). :)

[Omaroo]

John - I'm extremely interested in your findings. I watched these generators on eBay for a while, and the 12v 300W unit was selling for a while at $500 or so. I see that Jaycar now has them for that. I'm about a poofteenth off going and getting one for Cooma - as I'm reluctant to go solar for a weekender. We get plenty (read: LOTS) of wind up on the ridge tops less than 300 metres away - and wind speed is pretty constant. If we install four 110A/Hr deep cycle batteries and have them constantly topped up, we'd be set for years. Stick a decent 2KW pure-sine invertor in a shed next to the tower, and we could feed 240v AC power back down our hill without any real loss.

Is this the one you have?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Very keen to hear what you think.

Cheers
Chris

[JDNSW]

From my knowledge of aircraft and model aircraft I would suggest that the further you can get it off the ground, the more wind it will be operating in. Depending on the terrain, windshear can be quite pronounced. (this is the tendency of air to be moving much slower closer to the ground). :)

Yes, I am familiar with the effect - this is why I am using a windmill tower not the braced pole that came with it that raised the blades only enough for safety. It will be 7m up rather than 4.5m. Also putting it up the hill a bit. Problem with raising it higher is that the tower gets more expensive and more difficult to erect, and the wires to the batteries get longer - meaning they have to be thicker and more expensive to avoid losing the extra power you get from putting the blades higher.
John

[JDNSW]

John - I'm extremely interested in your findings. I watched these generators on eBay for a while, and the 12v 300W unit was selling for a while at $500 or so. I see that Jaycar now has them for that. I'm about a poofteenth off going and getting one for Cooma - as I'm reluctant to go solar for a weekender. We get plenty (read: LOTS) of wind up on the ridge tops less than 300 metres away - and wind speed is pretty constant. If we install four 110A/Hr deep cycle batteries and have them constantly topped up, we'd be set for years. Stick a decent 2KW pure-sine invertor in a shed next to the tower, and we could feed 240v AC power back down our hill without any real loss.

Is this the one you have?

http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_8930.jpg

Very keen to hear what you think.

Cheers
Chris

Yes, that's the one I have. I hope to have it up in about ten days or less, but I imagine it will be a few months before I can really report on the performance. The big question of course is how much power does it really put out in typical conditions. Seems to be very robustly made, but I don't like the plastic case and prop spinner, doubt they will stand up to the sun very well. The blades are unpainted, and I will have to paint them before putting it up - will see the paint people when I am in town on Thursday.

I would be cautious about running a 2KVA inverter at 12v - at rated power you will be drawing nearly two hundred amps, more if the battery is down a bit, and this means you have to have really good connections - all the time. Also, the mandatory HRC fuse for this sort of current is really pricey. 2KVA is about the upper limit for 12V because of this. Also, avoid running batteries in parallel if you can avoid it.

I like your idea of having the whole setup up the hill and running 240 down the hill - but make sure you can get a vehicle up there!

[dobbo]

Omaroo

You have a river at your place, have you considered a wind/hydro hybrid setup?

[Omaroo]

Yes, that's the one I have. I hope to have it up in about ten days or less, but I imagine it will be a few months before I can really report on the performance. The big question of course is how much power does it really put out in typical conditions. Seems to be very robustly made, but I don't like the plastic case and prop spinner, doubt they will stand up to the sun very well. The blades are unpainted, and I will have to paint them before putting it up - will see the paint people when I am in town on Thursday.

I would be cautious about running a 2KVA inverter at 12v - at rated power you will be drawing nearly two hundred amps, more if the battery is down a bit, and this means you have to have really good connections - all the time. Also, the mandatory HRC fuse for this sort of current is really pricey. 2KVA is about the upper limit for 12V because of this. Also, avoid running batteries in parallel if you can avoid it.

I like your idea of having the whole setup up the hill and running 240 down the hill - but make sure you can get a vehicle up there!
Cheers John. The 2KVA inverter is not absolutely necessary for us. We can probably get away with 500VA without losing too much functionality....and besides, we already have one. It'd just be nice to be able to run the occaisional power tool or A/C without having to fire up the generator - but that's no real biggie either.

You might be able to get a decent aluminium spinner from a hobby store depending on what type of hub the prop runs. Some 1/3 scale models are pretty darn large, and I've seen spinners up to eight inches in diameter for some model aircraft. Also - why not use the original plastic covers as plugs from which you can make a mould - and then in turn make fibreglass casings to replace the plastic (is it just flimsy ABS?). I'd be in a set - as would others I'd assume.

I'll be keeping an eye out to see what your findings are :)

Cheers
Chris

[Omaroo]

Omaroo

You have a river at your place, have you considered a wind/hydro hybrid setup?

Yeah Mat - we've looked in micro-hydro too. Our water speed is up to a nearly-constant 3 metres/second irrespective of the season, which with some small & compact units will generate a decent (and absolutely constant) 8 amps or so. The big problem is that the Murrumbidgee, where we are, changes levels so dramatically from the summer to winter seasons and then to spring, that in order to build a containment system we'd need tons of concrete so that it wasn't all washed away after the melt. We could anchor it to the bottom, but then we'd still have to protect the sysem from the huge logs that come downstream in spring...... it's all a bit hard, but would certainly be nice.

[JDNSW]

(snip)
You might be able to get a decent aluminium spinner from a hobby store depending on what type of hub the prop runs. Some 1/3 scale models are pretty darn large, and I've seen spinners up to eight inches in diameter for some model aircraft. Also - why not use the original plastic covers as plugs from which you can make a mould - and then in turn make fibreglass casings to replace the plastic (is it just flimsy ABS?). I'd be in a set - as would others I'd assume.

I'll be keeping an eye out to see what your findings are :)

Cheers
Chris

The soft plastic spinner is not rigid enough to use as a mould. Besides which I have a stainless steel basin that is just about the right size! I'll see if I can get an aluminium one the same size next trip to town, otherwise my kitchen is going to face a loss.
John

[Omaroo]

... otherwise my kitchen is going to face a loss.
John

LOL! We come from the same school of thought :)

[dobbo]

Yeah Mat - we've looked in micro-hydro too. Our water speed is up to a nearly-constant 3 metres/second irrespective of the season, which with some small & compact units will generate a decent (and absolutely constant) 8 amps or so. The big problem is that the Murrumbidgee, where we are, changes levels so dramatically from the summer to winter seasons and then to spring, that in order to build a containment system we'd need tons of concrete so that it wasn't all washed away after the melt. We could anchor it to the bottom, but then we'd still have to protect the sysem from the huge logs that come downstream in spring...... it's all a bit hard, but would certainly be nice.


Just float it on a rubber dingy type setup with a vertical plain wheel?

It could work

[Captain_Rightfoot]

All power to you I say :D

[JDNSW]

Well, I finally got the wind generator up and working. It is installed on the top of an old windmill tower.
Bit early to say how good it is, but it seems to need a fair bit of wind to work.
John

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well, I finally got the wind generator up and working. It is installed on the top of an old windmill tower.
Bit early to say how good it is, but it seems to need a fair bit of wind to work.
John
So you haven't been blown away with it yet? :D :D

[Blknight.aus]

JDNSW, if your interested I have seen a fairly simple sun tracker designed using a pair of LDR's, comparator and a servo controler and servo motor.

If your interested in the details let me know. My old man does Telsta installations and came up with the design of it, not sure if he has the full plans anymore but what hes done once I'm sure he can do again...

In theory it would be even easier to do with a laptop and a simple 2 input one output data board.

hope all the gear youve got keeps working for ya. I wouldnt mind having a decent look at it as Id like to set up in whoop whoop somewhere and be independant with some of the luxuries.

[Quiggers]

JDNSW: Mate I'd take that plane back, it hasn't got any wings. LOL

Seriously tho', I'm watching with interest, good on you for you efforts.

I'm on mains and the last quarter was $433, just keeps going up and up, but I'm trying to use less and less electricity. Like one less fridge, the electric coock top has gone etc, diligence on lights off etc.

$30,000 is a lot of money but is, at the ever increasing rates, about ten years supply - for me...interesting food for thought...

Cheers, GQ

[crump]

I'm considering installing a solar pump on a bore around 150 feet deep, anyone got the ins and outs of what I should be looking for?

[Quiggers]

Crump: I don't know, but I know someone who has bores, so when I see him in the next few days, I'll ask, i believe his are down about 100 feet...
but cost quite a bit to get done - for a golf course...

GQ

[JDNSW]

JDNSW, if your interested I have seen a fairly simple sun tracker designed using a pair of LDR's, comparator and a servo controler and servo motor.

If your interested in the details let me know. My old man does Telsta installations and came up with the design of it, not sure if he has the full plans anymore but what hes done once I'm sure he can do again...

In theory it would be even easier to do with a laptop and a simple 2 input one output data board.

hope all the gear youve got keeps working for ya. I wouldnt mind having a decent look at it as Id like to set up in whoop whoop somewhere and be independant with some of the luxuries.

I would be interested - I have a pair of trackers - which have died. The manufacturer has been taken over, and the new owner discontinued that design about ten years ago and has no information on it whatever and will not respond to any queries. The circuit boards have had the IC numbers removed, and I have been unsuccessful in finding a circuit. The first one to fail did so by incinerating one of the ICs, haven't found a similar problem with the other one. At the moment I am running them as fixed mounts, and am considering adding additional panels (or possibly wind generators, depending how this one goes) rather than trying to restore the tracking function. The major advantage of trackers, at least at this latitude, is in summer, when you have a much longer charging period anyway. Other options include replacing my fridge with a more power efficient one, and getting an LCD TV - I am just waiting for them to get low enough, they are still decreasing rapidly in price.
John

[Quiggers]

LCD's have just dropped by 40% as of today, JDNSW, wait a few months for the price adjustment to get here...

We saw it advertised on "A Current Affair" tonight, they did an entire segment on screens:

Were $1600 yesterday, today $999... and the reporter who did at least a few minutes of research had several brands in the zone at major retailers, who are due to, wll pass the savings on to us, to use an advertising euphimism....(well I wrote it many moons ago so i can)....LOL

Seen todays Big W catalogue? DVD player with an 8" HD screen for $198.This time last year the same item 7" screen was $449....

and the new one has plugins...

just gets cheaper every day.....like your generator...get several!

cheers. GQ

[JDNSW]

I'm considering installing a solar pump on a bore around 150 feet deep, anyone got the ins and outs of what I should be looking for?

I have a garden water system from a dam that raises the water about that amount (and the pump is designed for a bore). It is currently defunct due to a lack of water in the dam, but I can make some comments.

For specific information, see any rural pump supplier or solar power installer. Preferably at least two of them, as any retailer usually will only sell one brand.

The pump you will be looking at is probably a submersible diaphragm pump, either 12 or 24v depending on the volume you need. Number of panels will also depend on the voltage and volume needed. It may be worth getting a gadget that goes between the pump and the panels which optimises the output by changing the panel voltage to that which will work best with the pump. Some of these also accumulate power in a large capacitor and run the pump in short bursts when the panel output is too low to run the pump continuously.

My experience is that the pump I have is not terribly reliable (poor sealing) and repairs very expensive.
John

[JDNSW]

With the wind over the weekend and the last couple of days the wind generator has made a worthwhile contribution to the state of charge of the batteries, although it does need a fair bit of wind. Although rated at 200w I have seen it producing a little over that - 8A at 29V, albeit only for a few minutes at a time, but he wind did not get over about 35kph.
John

[scrambler]

JDNSW, if your interested I have seen a fairly simple sun tracker designed using a pair of LDR's, comparator and a servo controler and servo motor.

If your interested in the details let me know. My old man does Telsta installations and came up with the design of it, not sure if he has the full plans anymore but what hes done once I'm sure he can do again...

In theory it would be even easier to do with a laptop and a simple 2 input one output data board.

hope all the gear youve got keeps working for ya. I wouldnt mind having a decent look at it as Id like to set up in whoop whoop somewhere and be independant with some of the luxuries.

Knew I should have patented that solar tracking device when I thought of it in 1988. Not joking - have the Beyond 2000 footage to prove it.

It's deadset easy and you don't need any computers hanging off it to make it work.

Just read the rest of the thread - and have to confess it was a joint project (as anyone who can remember the show would recall :p) and that I don't have a copy of the final circuit. But basically you have the same circuit twice over, with 2 LDRs which are compared and an output dependent on which has more light - dead easy. The prototype was on a small scale, but the only one we had made for sale used electric scredrivers for the motors. But you may have the motors JD?
Steve

[matbor]

Knew I should have patented that solar tracking device when I thought of it in 1988. Not joking - have the Beyond 2000 footage to prove it.

It's deadset easy and you don't need any computers hanging off it to make it work.

Steve

Come on, put it up on youtube, or google video... use to love that show :)

[scrambler]

Come on, put it up on youtube, or google video... use to love that show :)

That would assume I had some way of getting the VHS into the computer... and could easily lay my hands on the tape...

It was the schools science award show, 1988. A mate and I took out the Queensland division with the solar tracking device (my idea and his mechano) but didn't make the national prize.

We made all the Brisbane news channels because the tracker would follow the TV camera lights so was much more photogenic than ant farms or cabbages grown in CO2-enriched tents...

Steve

[matbor]

saw this on one of my rss feeds today....
http://www.hackaday.com/2006/10/25/led-sensor-solar-tracker/

[robert42]

Hi Matbor and others , looks like your having a lot of fun ..we travel around a little and have seen some doosies as well as some good set ups..did travel in a motor home with solar, with a wind gen. as well. now we have a caravan and a td5 disco. much better. I fitted 2.110/80 watt. two face solar p. and two 120 amp AGM batt. also have a 12 volt 400 watt wind gen.Air-x ..have seen it charging 35 amps for a 10sec burst.then it shuts its self down..run a 60lt engel on freeze and a 190 lt.danfos fridge and light sat tv..carry one of them inverter gens .just in case..just love solar and wind power projects..good work ..will be watching for up dates..thank you for the input made good reading..

robert42

[rrturboD]

Great to see listers employing their 'I own a Land Rover' mechanical and electrical expertise that they practice everyday they drive!

I help my brother with a couple of unpowered rural blocks near Canberra. Have setup solar panels (old ex telecom) and old Dorman (ex DCA) gen set on one and currently looking to add wind rather than more solar on the other so have been lurking on this thread. Through the Land Rover Club of the ACT, I am able to get Jaycar stuff at a very good discount, so if other listers want stuff, let me know by (email or PM) and I'll see what I can do for you.

[tombraider]

I'm on mains and the last quarter was $433, just keeps going up and up, but I'm trying to use less and less electricity. Like one less fridge, the electric coock top has gone etc, diligence on lights off etc.

Man, I wish!!!!

Our average power bill per quarter is $800+ :(

In our last house it was worse... $1600+ a quarter :o

I'd love a $433 p.q. utility bill.... :cool:

[George130]

Man, I wish!!!!

Our average power bill per quarter is $800+ :(

In our last house it was worse... $1600+ a quarter :o

I'd love a $433 p.q. utility bill.... :cool:

:eek:
I thought ours was bad at $350 per quarter.

[abaddonxi]

Man, I wish!!!!

Our average power bill per quarter is $800+ :(

In our last house it was worse... $1600+ a quarter :o

I'd love a $433 p.q. utility bill.... :cool:


Ummmm,

You know that the solution is to turn off the heater rather than leaving it and turning the aircon to cool the place down, right?

Surprised the cops don't come to visit you looking for grow lights.


:D:D:D

Cheers
Simon.

[tombraider]

Ummmm,

You know that the solution is to turn off the heater rather than leaving it and turning the aircon to cool the place down, right?

Surprised the cops don't come to visit you looking for grow lights.


:D:D:D

Cheers
Simon.

Umm... well.. we dont use a heater....

And the A/C is lucky to run 20 times a year (evap)

And nope... No grow lights :D