Is HF radio dying?

[POD]

I'm re-considering the merits of HF radio as a means of emergency communication after our latest outback trip, wondering how our experience compares to that of others here. We've been VKS-737 subscribers for many years. I leave the kids with details of how to get a message to us when we are traveling remotely and tell them that if we fail to return or to show up when expected that the network log will have a record of our location and plans as reported daily.
Problem is, the network seems to have become a quasi ham-radio system for some of the operators. I'll describe one experience on this trip as a case in point.
Camped in a remote location and as far as we could tell, we are the only people within 100km. I check the time and it is within the sked window so I power up the radio and can faintly hear the operator on channel 2, can't make myself heard at all. When he goes to channel 1 I get a better signal but the operator is not able to catch my location; all he can pick up is my callsign. He tells me he's switching to a different base so let's see if I can get a better signal there.
I listen for a couple of minutes then realise he has of course switched to channel 2 with the change of base. I switch to channel 2 and sure enough have a 5x5 signal where I spend the next several minutes listening to a chat between the base operator and an old mate who is calling in from home. This chat covers such subjects as how he spilled some beetroot on the kitchen floor and had to clean it up, how he's booked in for a colonoscopy in a couple of weeks, whether or not he's been to the men's shed lately, real Grandpa Simpson stuff and fully engaged in by the base operator. This was the worst example but not by a wide margin. There was one operator who, when I heard his voice I knew it would be all business- location, intentions, no messages, weather if requested, clear. Just what I thought we had signed on for. Obviously it's a volunteer-run thing and a hobby for the operators but I'm wondering if perhaps it has deteriorated too far and if there are options out there that better serve the needs originally intended?

[p38arover]

I suspect a satellite radio would be better these days.

I don't have a vehicle-mounted HF rig (2m/70cm only). I struggle to get comms (on the ham bands) even from my home HF setup with a larger dipole antenna.

I'm always amused by TV programmes and movies where people can get perfect comms from hand-held radios or the in-car radios. In the time I've had my 2m/70cm rig in the Rangie, I've managed only one contact via a repeater.

[123rover50]

I have been with VKS737 for 20 years and happy with the service they provide. Perhaps you should have called in with "breaker breaker" and see what happens.
Before that I was with Flying Doctor Outpost Radio. but it is just for emergencies not just calling in with position reports etc.
Keith

[p38arover]

I suspect a satellite radio would be better these days.

Having said that, watch the video in this thread and hear about the issues of comms with their sat phones.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6ba3cqWafQ

[POD]

Valid points about having redundancy in comms for emergencies. I'm thinking perhaps I'll keep the HF just for emergencies and not bother with logging position, receiving messages etc., as that has become a bit of a frustration.

[V8Ian]

My experience with sat phones was that reception was akin to vodafail, beyond the CBD.
How reliable are EPERBs?

[Tins]

My OKA has a Codan. I haven't subbed to VKS737 as I haven't had the use for it yet. Currently I am wondering if a Starlink service might make it, and the satphone, redundant. As I have the Codan I might as well keep it.

An EPIRB, on the other hand, would still be an almost essential item if solo, which I will be when I go. Some problems, such as an electrical fire, or other total loss of the vehicle, would render the HF, Starlink, and possibly the satphone ( charging ), useless.

[POD]

I think you would be looking at a PLB rather than an EPIRB. As I understand it they transmit on a radio frequency that is monitored by commercial aircraft as well as by satellite. Line of sight from airline routes at 40,000ft would surely cover all of Aus?

[Tins]

I think you would be looking at a PLB rather than an EPIRB. As I understand it they transmit on a radio frequency that is monitored by commercial aircraft as well as by satellite. Line of sight from airline routes at 40,000ft would surely cover all of Aus?

Well, yes. My mistake, as EPIRB has become a little generic. EPIRB is more for marine applications. However I believe they work just fine for remote touring, have double the transmit time, but are far larger and heavier making them unsuitable for bush walking.

PLB would be the logical choice for our purposes though.

[rar110]

I did the Kokoda track recently and used a Garmin Inreach Mini to send location and short messages back to Australia. It can connect to your phone to make texting easier.

It was so light and small, and worked perfectly in PNG.

[prelude]

I don't know about VK737 but as a HAM radio operator I do know about HF in general and it seems we are nearing the sunspot maximum so there is a lot of fun to be had on those bands. Personally, I am not sure if I would depend my life on HF communications just coupled to a single "net" so to speak. Other than that, certainly. You can always connect to someone somewhere around the globe who will have a phone nearby.

I am interested in the whole thing though since I am considering bringing an HF radio along (Australia honours CEPT I believe so I can use my license there as guest).

Regarding starlink, that someone mentioned; I would NOT trust my life to that. I am sure the tech is reasonably reliable but the it's more a question of the company behind it. It's a consumer thing with consumer level support and what not. Me, personally, I'd rather bring an iridium sat phone I think.

-P

[Graeme]

Being a licenced amateur radio operator with an APRS TNC (RPi running DireWolf) connected to my HF radio, I can send and receive messages over HF APRS via multiple APRS internet gateways to/from email accounts or to/from other amateur stations that have message handling capability.

[goingbush]

Over the years Ive had 4 different sat phone technologies , Codan 100W on VKS737 , Spot tracker, & all have their merits but none are dependable in dire emergency.

I now have starlink on the truck but in the event truck is destroyed or I'm away from truck a PLB with RLS is the only thing thats truly dependable.

[RANDLOVER]

My experience with sat phones was that reception was akin to vodafail, beyond the CBD.
How reliable are EPERBs?

In the comments to the vid it says the 2nd sat-phone did work when they got out from under a tree. Also, what actually happened starts at approx 9 mins in and the lessons learned is a separate chapter at about 44 mins for those who want to skim.

[Tins]

Regarding starlink, that someone mentioned; I would NOT trust my life to that. I am sure the tech is reasonably reliable but the it's more a question of the company behind it. It's a consumer thing with consumer level support and what not. Me, personally, I'd rather bring an iridium sat phone I think.
-P

Not sure what you mean by that. Regardless of people's thoughts on the owner, Starlink has a pretty good reputation, and until the US Govt intervened it was providing reliable internet to the people in Ukraine. I mentioned it as something to have along with a PLB. People can inform their family etc of progress and location, and can keep an eye on weather ( or potential civil uprisings [bigwhistle]) and use their normal phones for day to day communication over the internet.

Here in OZ satellite or HF are about the only choices. You can forget the mobile phone network, and not because it's a commercial operation, folks in the US trust their life to it everyday. It's just that Australia has some of the most remote locations on the planet, and coverage doesn't exist. But I guess you know that.

When I finally sell my house and 'ss off the Oka will have Starlink, a satphone or at least a sat skin for my iphone, and it will still have the Codan HF.

Funny, the last time I went anywhere seriously remote hardly any of this stuff existed. Only rich buggers and Telecom trucks had HF. If anything went wrong for me I would have had to fall back on smoke signals. Unless you carry the PLB on your person the same thing will apply if the vehicle is a total loss due to fire etc.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

[goingbush]

<snip>

Funny, the last time I went anywhere seriously remote hardly any of this stuff existed. Only rich buggers and Telecom trucks had HF. If anything went wrong for me I would have had to fall back on smoke signals. Unless you carry the PLB on your person the same thing will apply if the vehicle is a total loss due to fire etc.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

funny you should mention Telecom trucks.

I worked for Telecom 30 years & my form of emergency comms was to tap into someones phone line & make a call on my buttinski. For many years I still carried a butt with me when I left Telecom as my fallback emergency comms. Not so much any use in the outback though.

PLB are so compact now, silly not to carry with you, they are foolproof and require no thought or maintenance (like remembering to keep charged) . Get one with RLS , a light comes on when your message had been recieved and will be acted upon.

[RobMichelle]

I still like the hf radio, have made some good friends through the club we are in, subscription is cheap enough, can text make ph calls if needed, Facebook group for those that use it( we not Facebook people) gps logging so someone always knows where you are once logged, emergency button is peace of mind for wife as she only needs to push that and it alerts a few in the club.
I like vks for there usually no nonsense skeds, and the above mentioned seems quite out of character for most of the volunteer operators, it’s all horses for courses and il keep ours going [emoji106]🥃

[p38arover]

I had a Codan 9323 HF in the garage for quite some years but never fitted it to the P38A. There really wasn't anywhere one could fit it. I then bought a QMac HF90 to fit but that never happened, either.

I had read that both could play havoc with the P38A electronics.

I am thinking of taking my Yaesu FT-840 with me when camping so I have something to do at night. I'd need to work out a suitable antenna system. I have an HVT-600 tapped HF mobile antenna but haven't had much success with it.

[Tins]

I had read that both could play havoc with the P38A electronics.



I'll have to watch that in the OKA...[bigrolf]

[Graeme]

I have an Icom 7100 with an AH-4 ATU in the back of my MY12 L322. Interference was to the radio rather than the car's electronics which was resolved with 2 loops of the radio's power cable through a clip-on toroid. The ABS modulator can cause very minor noise. I installed coax from the ATU to the antenna instead of the normally used unshielded wire to avoid excessive RF inside the vehicle. I use 100W for any HF APRS or voice.

[rar110]

I did the Kokoda track recently and used a Garmin Inreach Mini to send location and short messages back to Australia. It can connect to your phone to make texting easier.

It was so light and small, and worked perfectly in PNG.

I probably wasn’t clear, but this system is a two way message system. A receiver send messages and can reply on their phone using the Garmin app. Thought this was relevant after re-reading the original post.

Also the battery on this thing lasts ages. After 8 nights of turning it on to check and reply to messages it was still 90% charged.

[John_D4]

I’ve got a spot-x with it’s own keyboard. Not super fast communication but does work quite well

[TonyC]

We used a Garmin Inreach on a recent back country ski trip.We had it set so if would send our position at set intervals.
So with no intervention from us, our Ground Charley could see were we were.

Tony

[oka374]

We've had an HF since our earliest travels in the late 70's and joined VKS at it's inception when the RFDS stopped skeds and mainstream use.
In all those times we've used it in anger about a dozen times for us and mostly others for medical, mechanical, recovery and emergency assistance after everything from bites to vehicle accidents.
We have also always had an EPIRB and more recently a PLB as a last resort.
We used a first generation inReach and Spot in Canada and the US when on extended travel over a year as at the time (2012/13) their mobile phone system was even patchier than ours.
We've also had an Iridium Satphone from their early days until a couple of years ago, but found that when the chips were down the HF was the go when coupled with the VKS network.
When weather, atmospheric conditions and location are poor the satphone is found wanting even with a car kit and large antenna and if anyone has tried ringing a call centre with a satphone will clearly realise it's a near impossible exercise as the call centre invariably drops the call due to the delayed response.
A quick call on the HF to VKS with the problem outlined, pass on your membership details, within a short period you get a reply from the VKS operator to say help is on it's way!
Then you have the added advantage that a fellow VKS member relatively close by happens to hear of your predicament , is heading your way and and can drop parts off or render assistance or as has happened we have done the same for others in the past.
The huge problem with the satphone or in fact any phone as I see it is when in a remote area far from home having the phone number for local services where you are in trouble. Despite carrying long lists of numbers they are never the right ones.
Having a mob like VKS or a very cluey mate at home to organise stuff on your behalf is the best.

[Saitch]

Well, yes. My mistake, as EPIRB has become a little generic. EPIRB is more for marine applications. However I believe they work just fine for remote touring, have double the transmit time, but are far larger and heavier making them unsuitable for bush walking.

PLB would be the logical choice for our purposes though.

My boat (when I had it) and both 4x4s are registered on my EPIRB. It has, Make, Model and colour recorded.

[prelude]

My comment about starlink was just that; it is reasonably reliable but not dependable when the chips are down. I second the remark about sat phone vs HF audio. I have had to use a sat phone in anger in remote scandinavia, admittedly via an iridium go which installs an app on your satphone so that does not help but it dropped my call when I needed it and even with hours of patience when stationary with a clear view of the sky I could not for the life of me get anything done with the data side (internet generally) even if I take into account that it would be slow.*

You might have the same problem with a flaky HF connection but as I already mentioned I believe there will most likely always be some other person who will pick up your call if not the base or person you were looking for. I also find the argument that people around you can possibly help since it is a one to many connection a good one.

Regarding the P38 and electronics: I have had the HIQ 4-80 on the front bumper (near the battery) with around 1.2kw of power on it and nothing broke :) However, that positions causes so much interference from the engine into the HF receiver that it is unworkable when the engine is running.

The only thing keeping me from installing a HF radio is weight and the second reason is I will be traveling through countries where my license is not valid so it might be a bit problematic.

So, I guess HF is or should not be dying. Reading this thread in terms of communication (when it matters) HF is probably on top, as long as you car has not died or burned down, followed by a PLB, sat phone, phone, starlink, phone, smoke signals, telepathy? :) in that order I would reckon.

Cheers,
-P

* I have been in it and a ham radio operator for many decades, know about packet radio, propagation and network latency. I tried for 5 hours to get anything more than a ping running the battery of the go down but never got anything more through than a simple email through the builtin app.

[Tins]

Back in July I was out on some tracks in Qld, not far off the beaten track really, but isolated nonetheless. I had my Oka hung up on a rock. In the course of trying to recover it I fell and fractured a vertebrae. This was, and still is, quite debilitating. I was barely able to move, let alone recover the vehicle.. On this occasion I had Robmacca and V8Ian with me, and some passers by. But, if that wasn't the case, I could still be there. OK, not there exactly, but you get my drift.
I've always prided myself in my ability to get out of any situation that I got myself into. That day taught me a lesson I'm unlikely to forget.

[Tins]

Having a mob like VKS or a very cluey mate at home to organise stuff on your behalf is the best.

Thanks Peter. It's on your previous advice that #74 still has the Codan. Still, it's not like I need the room it uses[bigsmile1]

[V8Ian]

Back in July I was out on some tracks in Qld, not far off the beaten track really, but isolated nonetheless. I had my Oka hung up on a rock. In the course of trying to recover it I fell and fractured a vertebrae. This was, and still is, quite debilitating. I was barely able to move, let alone recover the vehicle.. On this occasion I had Robmacca and V8Ian with me, and some passers by. But, if that wasn't the case, I could still be there. OK, not there exactly, but you get my drift.
I've always prided myself in my ability to get out of any situation that I got myself into. That day taught me a lesson I'm unlikely to forget.
Even the mighty Td5 couldn't get enough traction to drag the besser block off the rock. [bigsad]

[oka374]

We got the Oka well and truly stuck last year, really boggy country so a similar weight vehicle or heavy equipment was out of the question.
After waiting weeks for the country to dry out we got it out with the aid of air jacks, multiple timber blocks, over a dozen Maxtrax and a 130 trayback with a PTO winch.
Mind you the 130 had to self recover first after the driver ignored my advice to not drive within 20m of the Oka.

[Tins]

We got the Oka well and truly stuck last year, really boggy country so a similar weight vehicle or heavy equipment was out of the question.
After waiting weeks for the country to dry out we got it out with the aid of air jacks, multiple timber blocks, over a dozen Maxtrax and a 130 trayback with a PTO winch.
Mind you the 130 had to self recover first after the driver ignored my advice to not drive within 20m of the Oka.

Little longer than "weeks", wasn't it?? That little adventure is something of a legend in the admittedly small Oka circles.

[Tins]

Even the mighty Td5 couldn't get enough traction to drag the besser block off the rock. [bigsad]

You could have tried harder.