Starting Issues.

[cuppabillytea]

2013 2.2 180'000 Ks Biddy is taking a long time to start yet runs normally. BAS reader finds a fault Rail pressure stays low, yet once running rail pressure rises to demand.
Is it the sensor?

[V8Ian]

Could be leak back or leak down, Billy.

[cuppabillytea]

Could be leak back or leak down, Billy.
That would affect the pressure when running Ian, and would probably trip the Fault: Insufficient pressure to supply demand. I dread that one. It snaps the throttle shut then puts it in to limp mode.

[V8Ian]

Is it hard to start on an instant restart?

[cuppabillytea]

Havn't tried that, but I suppose I should. Odd that the ECU records the event but does nothing about it. I suppose if the car doesn't start The ECU needn't take protective measures.

[cuppabillytea]

Could be indicative or just coincidence but we've had bucket loads of rain last couple of days. She goes in for service in a couple of weeks. She conveniently likes to brown her knickers around service time. Doesn't like the feel of a full wallet on her seats.

[Blknight.aus]

That would affect the pressure when running Ian, and would probably trip the Fault: Insufficient pressure to supply demand. I dread that one. It snaps the throttle shut then puts it in to limp mode.

not always, if the leak back through the pump can be overcome by the pump once its running youve just got to crank it enough to get starting pressure up again.

leakout through the regulator is a different thing.

It could also be the low pressure pump being lazy.

[cuppabillytea]

not always, if the leak back through the pump can be overcome by the pump once its running youve just got to crank it enough to get starting pressure up again.

leakout through the regulator is a different thing.

It could also be the low pressure pump being lazy.
Thanks Dave. I've experienced the low pressure pump tardiness issue before. It resulted in a high pressure pump failure. The high pressure pump having to suck the fuel all the way up from the tank was too much for it. That was expensive. As I mull it over I lean more and more to the sensor taking too long to register the pressure. because once the engine is running, it functions normally. At that time I suspected leak back but it was the pumps, and that issue didn't cause a long engine starting time issue.
The ECU's reaction to that is to shut the throttle valve and assume limp mode, which is quite dramatic if you're at full noise.
It should be noted that before I crank the engine, I turn on the ignition and wait for the lift pump to stop. It only takes a few seconds and I can be assured it's functioning properly.

[DazzaTD5]

If its cranking speed is slightly slower than you are used to i'd guess it needs a starter motor.
If cranking speed is normal and injectors have not been replaced or was round 100K ago, then its time for new injectors.

The 2.2 eats injectors round 100K.
The 2.4 round 150K.

both can give a slight engine clatter when cold but also once right up at normal engine temps.

[cuppabillytea]

Today's symtoms: Started almost immediately. Idle is slightly rough for a couple of minutes. Weather warmer and drier.

[cuppabillytea]

If its cranking speed is slightly slower than you are used to i'd guess it needs a starter motor.
If cranking speed is normal and injectors have not been replaced or was round 100K ago, then its time for new injectors.

The 2.2 eats injectors round 100K.
The 2.4 round 150K.

both can give a slight engine clatter when cold but also once right up at normal engine temps.
Thanks Dazza. There has been no fault recorded that relates to injectors. They've done 180,000 Ks. As far as I can tell they're functioning normally. Engine performance through the rev range, and at various loads is normal. I wouldn't be replacing them until they drop their guts.

[DazzaTD5]

Thanks Dazza. There has been no fault recorded that relates to injectors. They've done 180,000 Ks. As far as I can tell they're functioning normally. Engine performance through the rev range, and at various loads is normal. I wouldn't be replacing them until they drop their guts.

*you wont get injector fault codes on a Defender, the ecu is simply not high tech enough, as in what has been programmed as a fault etc.

*if they have never been done, you have been warned. talk to any decent Land Rover or Ford repairer.
*Rangers and injector replacement are common, 2.2 and 3.2
*cracked piston here it comes...

[skidrov]

....The 2.4 round 150K.


Interesting.... What do you replace the injectors with? Factory, or....?

[cuppabillytea]

Interesting.... What do you replace the injectors with? Factory, or....?
I don'y think there's an option. even if there is what would be better?

[cuppabillytea]

*you wont get injector fault codes on a Defender, the ecu is simply not high tech enough, as in what has been programmed as a fault etc.

*if they have never been done, you have been warned. talk to any decent Land Rover or Ford repairer.
*Rangers and injector replacement are common, 2.2 and 3.2
*cracked piston here it comes...
fault the ECU is telling me is: Low pressure in the rail.
I've said, Service is booked in for two weeks time at Graham Coopers, I'll have them check it out and may very well replace the injectors, but at this stage I still think I have a faulty sensor.

[cuppabillytea]

*you wont get injector fault codes on a Defender, the ecu is simply not high tech enough, as in what has been programmed as a fault etc.

*if they have never been done, you have been warned. talk to any decent Land Rover or Ford repairer.
*Rangers and injector replacement are common, 2.2 and 3.2
*cracked piston here it comes...
Hay Daza. I'm Back at work for two weeks on Monday. I'd be doing about 800 Ks in that time. Would you think it prudent to use alternative transport?

[DazzaTD5]

Interesting.... What do you replace the injectors with? Factory, or....?

a 2.4 DENSO
a 2.2 Continental (VDO, siemens)

last week...
a 2.4 Defender 300K never been done, so thats a good run (i think a bit lucky)
a 3.2 ranger, 70K done under warranty, bad run, but good outcome.
a 2.2 Defender 130K cracked piston, engine replaced.

[DazzaTD5]

Hay Daza. I'm Back at work for two weeks on Monday. I'd be doing about 800 Ks in that time. Would you think it prudent to use alternative transport?

*I'm sure it will be fine, all I am doing is guessing at why it takes a bit to start.
*I've not seen a 2.2 with a faulty sensor is all.
*nor have I seen a 2.2 with a faulty SCV

*yet both can be a problem on a 2.4

*I get Defenders in all the time that people tell me its running fine, yet I drive it and on that floating throttle on the freeway I can here it rattling, some quite bad.

[cuppabillytea]

I've had a good run then. Pumps were both done at 80,000 I might have to bight the bullet and do the whole bloody lot.

[V8Ian]

That could be fuel slowly running back to the tank, or the injectors leaking. Is it making oil?

[Blknight.aus]

As I mull it over I lean more and more to the sensor taking too long to register the pressure.

Thats not a good diagnose...

cheap fix but not likely, if its slow to get lit off and then responds normally, watch what the pressures are doing, if they are low (say sub 2000psi for common rail) while canking then once the engine starts they rise quickly to the nominal demanded rail pressure, Thats not the sensor failing. Thats a pump or regulator issue. Hope for the LP pump loosing prime from the tank to the LP pump. Actually hope for it to be the pressure reg not closing up to the closed position. thats the cheapest fix.


I dont recall the Fords having an electricl lift.. Used to be you had to vac the line up to the LP pump IIRC

[scarry]

a 2.4 DENSO
a 2.2 Continental (VDO, siemens)

last week...
a 2.4 Defender 300K never been done, so thats a good run (i think a bit lucky)
a 3.2 ranger, 70K done under warranty, bad run, but good outcome.
a 2.2 Defender 130K cracked piston, engine replaced.

Do the 2.2 and the 3.2L Rangers throw codes when injectors are faulty?
Just asking as we have a couple of them at work.

Had a diesel Tojo van throw code P0204,last week,first time it has had an issue,Mr Google says injector[bigsad]
7yr old,200,000Km off to mechanic Monday.

[cuppabillytea]

Thats not a good diagnose...

cheap fix but not likely, if its slow to get lit off and then responds normally, watch what the pressures are doing, if they are low (say sub 2000psi for common rail) while canking then once the engine starts they rise quickly to the nominal demanded rail pressure, Thats not the sensor failing. Thats a pump or regulator issue. Hope for the LP pump loosing prime from the tank to the LP pump. Actually hope for it to be the pressure reg not closing up to the closed position. thats the cheapest fix.


I dont recall the Fords having an electricl lift.. Used to be you had to vac the line up to the LP pump IIRC
That is what I hoped for last time I had issues Dave. Turned out Both pumps were bung. There was no starting issue that time, only insufficient fuel to supply demand which put it into limp mode. No limp mode this time though so maybe I can be hopeful again this time.[bigwhistle]

[cuppabillytea]

Thanks for your help everyone. I'll keep you posted on developments but I'm dreading the bill for this one.

[DazzaTD5]

Do the 2.2 and the 3.2L Rangers throw codes when injectors are faulty?
Just asking as we have a couple of them at work.

Had a diesel Tojo van throw code P0204,last week,first time it has had an issue,Mr Google says injector[bigsad]
7yr old,200,000Km off to mechanic Monday.

no, they just wear out. As ive mentioned a few times, the rattle when driving on cold and the rattle returns when right up to operating temps.
When the last model Defender TDCi was newish i had trouble getting my head around an engine that the injectors needed replacing so quickly, i used to get them tested, which is a complete waste of time, the cost in getting them tested is better put towards new injectors.

this is a different symptom to the FCV failures on the 2.4, which also causes rattle when cold driving and hard starting.

you will get fault codes when its a electrical fault related to injectors.
2.2 the plug connector on the injector seem prone to any tarnish on the pins, when there is a connection fault the ecu turns off that injector until the engine is turned off then re-started, but if the connection fault returns, the ecu will drop out the injector again. unplugging and cleaning with some contact cleaner etc, they come good.

the injector seals are prone to failure as well, this shows as the engine seems excessively breathy, as in while running undoing the oil filler cap and it pops straight off. often diagnosed as the engine is done.

[cuppabillytea]

I've stopped driving it now. 3 seconds to start cold slightly irregular idle for two minutes slight hesitancy when accelerating from 2,000 revs. Cranked it for a minute and forty seconds today and she didn't start. As it is no longer running normally I've parked her up until she goes into the shop.

[V8Ian]

Shank's pony? Foot Falconing?

[cuppabillytea]

Shanks's pony is almost due for the Knackers. I have to slum it in the wife's Beee-em.

[V8Ian]

Break My Wallet.:o

[cuppabillytea]

My wallet will be no more than dust after this episode.[bawl]

[V8Ian]

Got a diagnosis, Billy?

[cuppabillytea]

Not yet Ian. Goes to shop Tuesday.

[DazzaTD5]

So now it's taking upto a minute to start...

Immobiliser issue maybe, as in the pulse width modulated signal from the ECU to the immobiliser module is intermittent.
Again this is more of a 2.4lt problem, the signal line from the ecu to the immobiliser goes via the IP cluster (instrument panel) and is prone to breakage at the plug and internally on the IP cluster itself. This was resolved on the 2.2 as the feed line goes direct from the ecu to the immobiliser.

Or a faulty or intermittent crankshaft position sensor, i've done a few on the 2.2, but generally the 2.2 will throw a code for it, unlike a 2.4

I'm only ruling out the lift pump and high pressure pump as the OP has had that done and both are not a common failure.
but if we are still on the line of fuel supply, a poorly fitting fuel filter.

[cuppabillytea]

It only takes a minute or more to start when hot. About 3 seconds when cold.
I had an immobiliser stop it once. In that instance it started imediatky and stopped after about a second.

[cuppabillytea]

Info coming back from mechanics: 1 possibly 2 injectors have gotten tired. I'll replace them all. That will cost a few bucks no doubt. I'm also going to replace several components in the cooling system, suspension and breaks. Why did I buy a car at Christmas? WTF was I thinking?

[Blknight.aus]

Why did I buy a car at Christmas? WTF was I thinking?

I love my mechanic?

I swear, Im going to do the same thing to my Xmas break as I'm now doing with my weekends

[cuppabillytea]

I love my mechanic?

I swear, Im going to do the same thing to my Xmas break as I'm now doing with my weekends
Yeah Dave. I love my mechanic but I'd rather give him my tax check than my Christmas present.
PS. You don't feel like moving to Sydney do ya?

[Blknight.aus]

Yeah Dave. I love my mechanic but I'd rather give him my tax check than my Christmas present.
PS. You don't feel like moving to Sydney do ya?

no, but keep an eye on the face book page, I usually promote when Im about to do a trip, this xmas trip is going to be on the quiet as I need a kinda break.. so only a select few are getting a look in.

sydney is on the route for this trip soooo if you'd like to get on the select list for about 19-201223 drop me a pm, or respond to the one Im sending...

:)

[DazzaTD5]

break - to smash, split, or divide into parts violently; reduce to pieces or fragments
brake - a device for slowing or stopping a vehicle or other moving mechanism by the absorption or transfer of the energy of momentum, usually by means of friction.


check - to prove to be right; correspond accurately.
cheque - a bill of exchange drawn on a bank by the holder of a current account; payable into a bank account, if crossed, or on demand, if uncrossed.

I thought it was only seen in facebook marketplace. I expect sooo much more from AULRO [tonguewink]

[V8Ian]

A bit harsh, Daz. At least AULROians are discerning, civil and honourable. [tonguewink]

[Blknight.aus]

break - to smash, split, or divide into parts violently; reduce to pieces or fragments
brake - a device for slowing or stopping a vehicle or other moving mechanism by the absorption or transfer of the energy of momentum, usually by means of friction.


check - to prove to be right; correspond accurately.
cheque - a bill of exchange drawn on a bank by the holder of a current account; payable into a bank account, if crossed, or on demand, if uncrossed.

I thought it was only seen in facebook marketplace. I expect sooo much more from AULRO [tonguewink]

uwe shell bee fourced two cheque al mie posts, their will be a hi likely hood the're are a phew misteaks.

[cuppabillytea]

break - to smash, split, or divide into parts violently; reduce to pieces or fragments
brake - a device for slowing or stopping a vehicle or other moving mechanism by the absorption or transfer of the energy of momentum, usually by means of friction.


check - to prove to be right; correspond accurately.
cheque - a bill of exchange drawn on a bank by the holder of a current account; payable into a bank account, if crossed, or on demand, if uncrossed.

I thought it was only seen in facebook marketplace. I expect sooo much more from AULRO [tonguewink]
That's Unfair! Some Of theem misteaks wuz mine.

[DazzaTD5]

you are both very immature with your replies...

[Blknight.aus]

you are both very immature with your replies...

Hey, I represent that...


You're both very immature with your replies...

There, I fixed it for you, :). Although I'll defer to Ron but I suspect there is a more gramatically appropriate manner to phrase that response.

:thumbsup:

[cuppabillytea]

Turned out to be injectors. All have been replaced with new. Renewd a lot of other things as well. Wallet's as thin as a water cracker now.

[V8Ian]

uwe shell bee fourced two cheque al mie posts, their will be a hi likely hood the're are a phew misteaks.
This one's good. [bigrolf]

[DazzaTD5]

so after all the long song and dance it ended up being the age old .... injectors

[cuppabillytea]

Just goes to show: Wishing and hoping can't trump reality. We humans will always face doom with song and dance.

[cuppabillytea]

so after all the long song and dance it ended up being the age old .... injectors
I'm glad I heeded your warning and stoped driving it. Thanks for that. I should be grateful for 180,000 Ks worth when others have had half that. Still the bloody thing should last a bit longer than that, don't you reckon?

[cuppabillytea]

Update: A couple of weeks after the defender fuel issues were sorted. I charged over a speed hump { not in Marickville] and bang, the right rear shock shaft punched through the gaiter and smashed the coupling where the fuel line from the tank fits the cap of the fuel filter. being unaware of this I continued on and arrived home with an empty tank, lucky but it turned out to be yet another expensive exercise.
Anyone with Bilstein shocks pay attention. If you start to hear sounds like tapping on your chassis, check your shocks. There have been rare instances where the top of the shaft becomes unlocked and eventually screws itself out. The tapping sound is an early warning of this. I looked all over the car for the source of the sound but could find nothing because the shaft is concealed by the gaiter.

[spudfan]

Here's a link to Defender2 on a non start issue. The vehicle would crank but not turn over. It turned out to be a straight forward inexpensive fix in the end.
"It ended up being the cam sensor. Fit a new one and fired up straight away!" Includes a photo of where this yoke is located.
DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - 2011 Defender 2.4 Puma cranks but will not fire. (https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic91041.html)

[DazzaTD5]

Here's a link to Defender2 on a non start issue. The vehicle would crank but not turn over. It turned out to be a straight forward inexpensive fix in the end.
"It ended up being the cam sensor. Fit a new one and fired up straight away!" Includes a photo of where this yoke is located.
DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - 2011 Defender 2.4 Puma cranks but will not fire. (https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic91041.html)

the OPs issue was worn out injectors.

the camshaft position sensor isn't that common but it does happen, interestingly enough its a common issue with the same engine in the Ford Transit.
Typically the signs are correlation fault to the Crankshaft position sensor and when cranking the engine tries to start as in it stumbles.
Yes cheap part if purchased as a Ford part.