General chat Economics " induced demand"

[NavyDiver]

Roads. We Love and hate them. Adding more lanes, freeways, Bridges, Underpasses and ...... Makes everything better or does it?

Sydney road chaos is in the news. I saw a person taking 1.5 hours to drive a route I have ran in the past in sub 30 minutes Excuse me for swearing John[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

Do extra lanes make it faster? Here in Melbourne East we are getting a Ring Road that is ending up on the directish path to the City near Bulleen, The RING part of that seem to be a bit lost[bigrolf]

"[B]Traffic Engineers: Why Don't More Lanes Help to Reduce Traffic?


]It's common (https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/06/21/the-science-is-clear-more-highways-equals-more-traffic-why-are-dots-still-ignoring-it/) knowledge (https://www.vox.com/2014/10/23/6994159/traffic-roads-induced-demand) that expanding a roadway does nothing to help with traffic congestion. I understand the principles of induced demand and the idea that more people will utilize an open roadway, but it seems like if that were completely the case, then we should be able to eliminate lanes without adverse effect as well. In essence, every highway should be one lane. Given that we have multiple lane highways across the country, how does it stand to reason that adding additional lanes wouldn't achieve higher throughput, and eventually, reduced traffic?"

Over time usually "induced demand" increases the traffic and decreases the travel times. The Sydney case did not take any time at all[bighmmm]

[loanrangie]

You could have a 20 lane freeway but it will always bottleneck down to 2-3 lanes so if there is no where for the traffic to go, there is no increased flow.

[gromit]

It's getting traffic ON & OFF a freeway that causes a lot of the delays.
Imposing a reduced speed limit often increases the traffic flow.

Colin

[scarry]

Getting on always seems to be an issue,as many,if not most have no idea how to merge into flowing traffic.[bigsad]

Getting off is reasonably easy,but the issue around here is the exit lanes are not long enough so the traffic banks up onto the motorway,which is not only dangerous but causes congestion.

[dirvine]

[Here in Melbourne East we are getting a Ring Road that is ending up on the directish path to the City near Bulleen, The RING part of that seem to be a bit lost[bigrolf]

You can blame John Cain and the Labor Party for that stupidity. The Ring Road was supposed to go through the back of Greensborough, Eltham and Warrandyte to join East link at Ringwood, which then takes you to Frankston. But Cain with green support sold off the land in Eltham. we were told the road would upset local wildlife. The Govt still owns some of the land out the back of Eltham. It was the same with the Eastern Freeway beyond Thomson Rd. Suddenly the middle median strip disappeared with the extension to Doncaster. Originally, the middle median strip was going to be for a fast train from Doncaster to the City via a link up with the Hurstbridge line at Victoria Park. My Uncle was on the Ring Road design committee or whatever it was called in the late 1960's. The Greensborough link now being built was never in the original plans. It was supposed to be a major feeder road. Again it never got off the ground because of "Greenie" wildlife protection issues. So DH Dan Andrews conceived the 16KM tunnel that is costing Billions to satisfy a minority and plug a missing "link" of the Ring road that was NEVER part of the original plan. Even when the missing link was advertised to be completed, the original route was never part of any of the options. So we have a hotch potch solution to a problem that was created by a Government just trying to get more votes to waste even more of our money. (Soap Box has now collapsed under the weight)

[loanrangie]

Getting on always seems to be an issue,as many,if not most have no idea how to merge into flowing traffic.[bigsad]

Getting off is reasonably easy,but the issue around here is the exit lanes are not long enough so the traffic banks up onto the motorway,which is not only dangerous but causes congestion.

One good thing being done down here is building long exit and entry ramps and routing them away from the main flow of traffic well before the actual need to exit reducing that backing up affect.

[NavyDiver]

One good thing being done down here is building long exit and entry ramps and routing them away from the main flow of traffic well before the actual need to exit reducing that backing up affect.
How long is long enough? Saw a log jam plus near here the other morning. I was doing that thing some call offensive[biggrin] Went passed and waved at a person I know. On my return wander I saw them still waiting to join the jam packed car park some call a Freeway[bigwhistle]
Not knocking traffic flow management. It is needed to help the issues which are only going to get worse.

The merging on to freeways at very slow speeds crew really are a special bunch.

[loanrangie]

How long is long enough? Saw a log jam plus near here the other morning. I was doing that thing some call offensive[biggrin] Went passed and waved at a person I know. On my return wander I saw them still waiting to join the jam packed car park some call a Freeway[bigwhistle]
Not knocking traffic flow management. It is needed to help the issues which are only going to get worse.

The merging on to freeways at very slow speeds crew really are a special bunch.

Hume highway from ring rd is still a basketcase due to the lack of infrastructure heading out to the new slums.

[scarry]

One good thing being done down here is building long exit and entry ramps and routing them away from the main flow of traffic well before the actual need to exit reducing that backing up affect.

They have done that around here as well,and in some places with shorter exit lanes gone to two lanes,on the exit lanes,which will work for a few years until the traffic flow increases again.

All we doing here is chasing our tail,particularly between Brisbane and the Gold Coast,this Motorway has become a disaster.We are on it a lot going to jobs,it is a clogged up nightmare every day,most of the day.

[chuck]

Hume highway from ring rd is still a basketcase due to the lack of infrastructure heading out to the new slums.

So if you use the Ring Road & Hume Hwy your going to a slum.

Really!!!

More space & trees out my way than St Helena.

[loanrangie]

So if you use the Ring Road & Hume Hwy your going to a slum.

Really!!!

More space & trees out my way than St Helena.Only once you get past whittlesea.

[prelude]

this oz bloke has a video on it (well half of it :) )

The biggest myths about economics, debunked | Economics Explained - YouTube (https://youtu.be/zOYLiTj4vag't=436)

-P

[3toes]

A long time ago was friends with someone who was involved with the design and buildings of transport infrastructure. Asked about a new stretch of raid that was curved when it could have been straight which seemed odd to me. His response was that it was done to be able to park more cars in the space than one lane or a straight road could

Made the point that a road speed was dependent on how many cars could exit the road. Hence the need to build parking space so it did not impact others further back who might then not be able to exit the road as backed up traffic was blocking it

All this was of course subject to political ‘views’ on what to build and where. As all traffic movement car, bus and train had to be seen as one which was often beyond politicians who had short term views on projects which needed to look forward 10 to 50 years. Each time you cut back you only made the solution more expensive and difficult to achieve. Transport gas to be built as part of the bigger picture not added in later

Was said to ignore anyone who spoke about unlimited car journeys as they had no idea. All journeys by any method of transport were finite in number as people did not travel for the sake of it. This was a political sound bite statement not fact. More movement was a sign of economic activity and reduction was proven to be followed by reduced economic activity

[NavyDiver]

The interesting rebuttal as a few factors which blew me away and oddly much more agreeing with the Induced Demand one he rebutts[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] I love economics. A Social Science NOT an exact Science[bigrolf]


https://youtu.be/oDGNNxY56k0'si=5csoKt2QOe-4Th6e

[prelude]

I have seen that one yes but compared to EE he was more of an apologetic it seems for the green side of the story. There's two more blokes on the interwebs that have a tendancy to rant on about such things; not just bikes and another bloke who's name I forgot (thankfully). I find it funny how they both rant on about how things are so much better in .nl as compared to the us where they both come from it seems. As a native .nl I do no share their opinion and even believe it to be down right propaganda at times, but I digress.

Back to the induced demand story: What I have found most interesting is to see the period around the lock downs. Roads were REALLY empty back then. When things opened back up people were ridiculously careful and/or simply made use of the situation and used it as an excuse to stay away from the office. Traffic jams in the "between lock downs" were almost non existent. Then came the period that the word covid all of a sudden became an offense so we now simply have a "flu" season again (funny, I called covid the chinese flu from day 1 :P) and although much has been done to work more freely from home and I do appreciate that mind you, I find it mind boggling how the same roads have the same traffic jams all over again whilst there should in theory be a, what, 50% reduction in road use since working from home a couple of days per week IS the new norm? Admittedly, I have also heard from people that their bosses want them to come in, period. I guess to defend that overpriced office in the city centre where an IT-shop has no business being located in the first place.

This to me seems to be evidence that roads are built to handle daytime traffic only and are never built to handle the peak hours, well, they are built for it where possible over here (longer on and off ramps to not hinder the flow of traffic to much) but not as a complete system to be able to handle traffic during the daily commute. The same also goes for public transport for that matter. I used to go by train when I was a poor student with free public transport (and have vowed never again since) and during the evening I could -never- get seating. The trains (which should really be called trams in .nl) were always packed more heavily than a meat truck.

I guess this is "good use" of public money? On the other hand, if more lanes means more people start using a road and that that never ends, I guess that tells you all you need to know about public transport. It mostly can't and never will compete?

Cheers,
-P