EGR and turbo issues with the TDV6 2.7 diesel engine

[egr victim]

I'm new to this forum so I hope I am able to post this without upsetting anyone. This forum has moe info on this engine than anywhere else. I own a ford territory with the TDV6 2.7 and around 250k on the clock. Great engine except for the EGR issues. The plan was to keep this thing running till at least 300k. Any engine worth its salt should make 300k easily but this will be a struggle. This is a long post but am stumped.

I have cleaned and replaced egr valves several times over the years on both sides as a result of the car going in to limp home mode. This is not unusual as we all know.

The last time this happened was on the right side and I had a valve ready to go but I thought stuff it, I'll cable tie the new valve in under the hood and connect it via the egr connector from the one attached to the engine. I checked that the one in the engine was in the closed position. This was like blanking the valve but avoiding the egr error codes. I don't know if this was a good idea or not but that is why I am here.

The car drove fine for quite some time. We did a trip to Sydney and back from Canberra, no worries. Then we did a trip to Brissy and back, no worries, no faults. Then we did a trip to Melb and on the way at cruising speed the cruise control became unavailable due to a loss of power. No engine fault or codes were showing at this stage (keep in mind I have a very basic freeby code reader, not a proper one). I soon figured out the only way I could get the car to hold 100klms an hour was to drop it back to fifth gear in performance mode. The only thing noticeable was a slight hissing sound on accelaration occasionally. On one of the stops to try and figure out what was going on I noticed the turbo hose from the turbo to the metal resonator (i.e. the boosted side had popped off). When I put it back on and tightened the clamp I was surprised to see it made no difference. I tried to check for leaks with soapy water but I realise now that the system can produce vacuum rather than boost so I don't know if my test was valid. On the way back it wasn't much fun. The car decided to limit us to 80kph an hour and I had to pull over to cycle the ignition to get it slowly up to 100kph again. There was loads of smoke on accelaration. We did manage to get an error code when the engine finally threw an engine light up. P023D MAP - Turbo/SC Boost Sensor A correlation. Prior to this I could see no errors.

When I saw this I pulled over to the nearest town, went in to a repco store and bought a can of MAP sensor cleaner and cleaned the MAP sensor and also the turbo boost sensor. I had nothing to lose. Didn't make a difference.

Further on down the track I pulled over again and I noticed under the engine cover (the one where you have to remove the oil filler cap to remove) a huge amount of soot that was definetly not there when I did the soapy water test or cleaning the map sensor. What had happened was that the air throttle body (plastic y shaped) had blown/melted a hole right next to the right egr port, where the exhaust gas is redirected back to the throttle body. I suspect this is when it started loads of smoke out the back.

I am chasing up a replacement throttle body from a wreckers but I want to know what could have caused this.


Are the EGR and the turbo systems in any way related, I didn't think so but the symptons suggest otherwise.

Would blanking the left egr valve have redirected more and hotter gases to the other side. I have the ford workshop manual but the pictures and explanation are poor. I had assumed that the left hand blank would redirect straight back out to exhaust but does it in fact produce more pressure and hotter gas on the right side when the EGR valve is open.

If you are still reading thanks for hanging in there.

I have checked the turbo actuator by watching it as the ignition is on. It moves and makes that familiar noise. That was my main suspect without understanding much (or enough) about it. I was thinking an overboost occured but I read somewhere else it isn't possible.

I was initially thinking this was a sensor issue but there are no codes indicating this.

My plan is as follows.

- Replace the throttle body.
- See how it runs.
- Clean the soot and oil off the engine and hoses (there is more oil around the turbo hoses than I remember in the past so I am not r- uling out a turbo issue but leaking oil in a turbo was fairly common I thought)
- If I can get it to a garage get a full reading of the error codes and go from there.
- do a boost vacuum leak test if I can figure out how rather than guessing that it has a leak.

Any ideas/thoughts/help would be appreciated.

Steve

[Graeme]

If you're not already aware of the issue, the inlet manifolds can crack leading to MAP/MAF discrepancies so keep an eye out for sooty deposits on the underside of the engine cover after the throttle body has been replaced.
The exhaust cross-over pipe will ensure that the blocked left EGR valve will increase the pressure in the cross-over pipe and therefore increase the flow through the right EGR valve.

[egr victim]

If you're not already aware of the issue, the inlet manifolds can crack leading to MAP/MAF discrepancies so keep an eye out for sooty deposits on the underside of the engine cover after the throttle body has been replaced.
The exhaust cross-over pipe will ensure that the blocked left EGR valve will increase the pressure in the cross-over pipe and therefore increase the flow through the right EGR valve.

Thanks Graeme, is there any known weak spots to look for on the manifolds? Would you know what that little air valve is on the intake plenum is for? It looks like a tyre stem with a valve cap on it. Its right where the top boost hose attaches to the air plenum. I was hoping I could test for leaks through that.

[loanrangie]

2.7 manifolds are not known to split, thats the 3.0. Sounds like the EGR worked its way open causing the hot exhaiust gases to melt the intake Y pipe.
I blanked my EGRS with slip in metal plates that i made from 1.15mm zinc annealed steel, these have slots and just drop in between the valve and the pipe work to the intake.
If you fit plates like this and keep the new working valves plugged in like you have you should be good, my valves were replaced by the previous owner so they were fairly new when i blanked them. I left all the pipework in place and haven't done any software mods, just removed the butterfly in the intake so the vehicle thinks they working and doing their job - done 40k since and apart from the occasional EGR DTC code it runs great.

[Bulletman]

To my knowledge these engines dont suffer consistent egr issues as you seem to discribe , but the territory set up may be different to the L/R set up . Reading you post makes me think you may have created an issue by putting the r/h egr valve under the bonnet and not connecting it properly if i have read it correctly..
The Y piece on these engines are known to clog up and start restricting the inlet side.. there are some pictures on here somewhere of a nearly completely blocked Y piece, alot of people clean these every 2nd or 3rd service, but be careful as they do get brittle and have been known to break. They do also have orings at the inlet end .
I would start by having a good look at your hoses from the intercooler and the turbo and check they havent delaminated or are in poor condition.

You mention the schrader valve on the intake , the disco doesnt have this, it has a senser (MAP) i think on the top of the Y piece which needs to be cleaned regularly as it gets full of the gunk returned into the Y piece via the egr valves.. the only schrader valve is on the fuel lines which run to the HPFP at the back of the V.

Bulletman

[loanrangie]

I'm assuming that the schrader valve in question is on the fuel return line and not the intake, i cant see any reason for one there and considering its the same engine with a few changes i'm betting its not there.

Just googled it and top end looks the same.

[egr victim]

I'm assuming that the schrader valve in question is on the fuel return line and not the intake, i cant see any reason for one there and considering its the same engine with a few changes i'm betting its not there.

Just googled it and top end looks the same.

I'll try and attach a picture of the schrader valve on the intake and also a picture of the holes in the throttle body. 188459188460

[egr victim]

To my knowledge these engines dont suffer consistent egr issues as you seem to discribe , but the territory set up may be different to the L/R set up . Reading you post makes me think you may have created an issue by putting the r/h egr valve under the bonnet and not connecting it properly if i have read it correctly..
The Y piece on these engines are known to clog up and start restricting the inlet side.. there are some pictures on here somewhere of a nearly completely blocked Y piece, alot of people clean these every 2nd or 3rd service, but be careful as they do get brittle and have been known to break. They do also have orings at the inlet end .
I would start by having a good look at your hoses from the intercooler and the turbo and check they havent delaminated or are in poor condition.

You mention the schrader valve on the intake , the disco doesnt have this, it has a senser (MAP) i think on the top of the Y piece which needs to be cleaned regularly as it gets full of the gunk returned into the Y piece via the egr valves.. the only schrader valve is on the fuel lines which run to the HPFP at the back of the V.

Bulletman

I have had quite a few egr issues with this car. I have also cleaned out the ypiece (throttle body) in the past as it was pretty dirty but I haven't cleaned the manifolds which also look dirty. Having said that the fuel economy we get from this car is very good. Hope it stays that way.

[Tombie]

What year is the territory?

Is it fair to say that 95% of the time it does very short trips?

[BradC]

I'll try and attach a picture of the schrader valve on the intake
188460

The only thing I could think of there is a test point for measuring boost pressure, but I have no idea why it'd be there.

[PerthDisco]

That long hose from the intercooler up to the intake is a common fault item on the LR due to it splitting usually behind a reinforcement sleeve. Change that.

[egr victim]

What year is the territory?

Is it fair to say that 95% of the time it does very short trips?

Yep. Mostly a commuter car and shopping trolley.

[egr victim]

That long hose from the intercooler up to the intake is a common fault item on the LR due to it splitting usually behind a reinforcement sleeve. Change that.

Thanks. I hope to do a smoke test to confirm any leaks.

[egr victim]

The only thing I could think of there is a test point for measuring boost pressure, but I have no idea why it'd be there.

That is what I was thinking too. It has a type of clip to connect something on to it. I am thinking this could be useful for a smoke leak test. Assuming I can attach a bike pump with gauge, does anyone know if it would be a useful test. If so how much pressure should be applied and how long it should hold pressure.

[Tombie]

That is what I was thinking too. It has a type of clip to connect something on to it. I am thinking this could be useful for a smoke leak test. Assuming I can attach a bike pump with gauge, does anyone know if it would be a useful test. If so how much pressure should be applied and how long it should hold pressure.

It won’t, a valve will be open somewhere!


Sounds like the following has been your issue:

EGR failures due to sooting up, the good old Sunday drive to blow out the carbon helps (get car up to temp for hours and some harder work to keep them clearer)

Then there was the failure, you pushed it shut, but it’s opened and pumped hot exhaust constantly against the Y piece hence the failure.

If you want to do what you have I can send some blanking plates for the EGR exhaust inputs from the manifolds themselves.

Your vehicle depending on year will also potentially need the EGR tuned out, airflow calcs create the errors . This could also be the main hose to the inlet manifold being split.

To solve all your problems:

Have a tuner program out the EGRs
Blank the manifold gas entry
Replace Y piece
Replace main intercooler hose to y piece

[gromit]

I read this thread with interest as we are on our second Terri diesel.

Problems with EGR valves are mentioned on the Ford forums but, touch wood, we've had no issues.

Both cars owned from new and used by me for the first 5 years and approx 180,000km. First one traded in at 11 years and 220,000km.
Current one at about 200,000km.

Is it driving style that causes the issues ?
Ours were used hard for 5 years then mainly school run from then on with the occasional use towing a car trailer.

I hope you get it sorted out as I found the Terri a great all round vehicle & tow tug.

Colin

[Tombie]

Partially, and fuel quality.

An “Italian tune up” is good for them, as is the detergents present in more premium fuel.

[BradC]

It won’t, a valve will be open somewhere!

The whole intake is open from that location. You'd want to plug the MAF and then as you say a valve will be open. I've given it a lot of thought over the last couple of days, and all I can come up with is the location of the valve was determined by the same person on work experience from the sheltered workshop that drew up the AU Falcon.

[egr victim]

I read this thread with interest as we are on our second Terri diesel.

Problems with EGR valves are mentioned on the Ford forums but, touch wood, we've had no issues.

Both cars owned from new and used by me for the first 5 years and approx 180,000km. First one traded in at 11 years and 220,000km.
Current one at about 200,000km.

Is it driving style that causes the issues ?
Ours were used hard for 5 years then mainly school run from then on with the occasional use towing a car trailer.

I hope you get it sorted out as I found the Terri a great all round vehicle & tow tug.

Colin

Thanks Colin, I think definetely driving style makes a difference.

I put a replacement throttle body housing on. Put the connector back on the EGR valve so EGR's are back in use and they pass the self test when the engine is turned on/off because there are no error codes. Started it, idles well no strange noises so thankfully I didn't damage the engine. Took it for a drive and it has the same issue, not enough power to safely get me around the block. So little power that I could hardly reverse it up my driveway. No codes, no engine light. Slight puff of smoke under heavy reving (to get it up the driveway) but that could be a hangover from the previous poor running.

I did a smoke test with a bike pump and diy smoker and could not find any leaks, I hope I did it correctly. Where to from here?

Could this be something to do with the turbo actuator? I can hear it self testing and can see it moving? But this first started at cruising speed could an actuator fail like that? How do I eliminate the turbo?

My other thought is cat convertor blockage, could that be possible, would it throw a code, and how do I test it out?

Could it be gearbox related? Anyone have other ideas.

Would calling a mobile mechanic with a proper scanner be useful at this stage?

[egr victim]

I should mention that I can rev the car fine when its in nuetral and it feels responsive as it normally would. But as soon as I try to reverse or go forward up a slight incline there is no power as if the throttle is disconected from the engine. Does turbo boost come into play at this stage given there isn't much load? I have a bluetooth car scanner and i can set up various dials like boost pressure, load etc but I don't know what to look for to make it usefull. Is there a standard test out there that can be used for comparison, kinda like a basic health check?

[egr victim]

Have realised that under heavy load in nuetral (over 3500rpm) the car is blowing a massive amount of evil looking pure black soot that covered everything including the dog. It is so thick it just lays on everything. Is this consistent with EGR valve stuck open? That would explain why the intake manifold got a hole in in it. I just don't get why there are no codes as it has always thorwn egr codes for previous egr problems.

[egr victim]

Took both egr pipes off to inspect the EGR valve positions. Left side is fine. Surprisingly the right side egr is stuck open (with no error codes). This would explains the black smoke and hopefully the loss of power. The hole in the throttle body is directly opposite the right hand egr exit point so it makes sense that the opposite side should melt.

How could that EGR have blown open given that it was not connected to the power? Am I wrong in thinking that the force must have come from the manifold side and there had to be enough force to open it against exhaust pressure. Having the Egr disconnected meant the ECU could no longer close it even if it wasn't mechanically stuck. This is a chinese valve by the way and only about 18months old.

I am still trying to understand how the turbo hose blow off is related.

Maybe the additional pressure from the EGR being open caused the hose to blow.

There being no codes could mean that the right EGR was stuck open when I first disconnected it (bypassed it) but the trouble with this theory is that the car was driven to QLD and back with no issues.

[egr victim]

2.7 manifolds are not known to split, thats the 3.0. Sounds like the EGR worked its way open causing the hot exhaiust gases to melt the intake Y pipe.
I blanked my EGRS with slip in metal plates that i made from 1.15mm zinc annealed steel, these have slots and just drop in between the valve and the pipe work to the intake.
If you fit plates like this and keep the new working valves plugged in like you have you should be good, my valves were replaced by the previous owner so they were fairly new when i blanked them. I left all the pipework in place and haven't done any software mods, just removed the butterfly in the intake so the vehicle thinks they working and doing their job - done 40k since and apart from the occasional EGR DTC code it runs great.

What is the reasoning for taking off the butterfly intake valve?

[loanrangie]

What is the reasoning for taking off the butterfly intake valve?The valve closes to allow gases to flow from the egrs then opens when they are closed, without removing it you are restricting airflow from the filter box.

[egr victim]

Terry lives again!

I had a D3 blanking plate kit laying around so I decided to give that a go. This is the one where the EGR pipe is removed rather than a cutoff blanking plate. Last time I tried it I think I had issues but I think I had removed the butterfly valve from the throttle body as was suggested.

I put it on, this time leaving the butterfly valve in, expecting to have the car to spit the dummy in some fashion. I thought that if this doesn't work the next step is to replace the egr that is stuck open.

I was surprised that the car runs perfectly fine with no error codes.

Anyway I'll see how it goes. I have an emergency kit consisting of a basic code reader and a spare egr valve to plug in if necessary.

A few tips if I may

- when replacing blocked egr's, is to keep the old ones, especially if they are the originals, clean them up, test them to prove they work and keep them in the car as spares or dummies, in a limp home situation you might be able to use them to fool the computer enough to get home.

- check the blanking plugs (the ones where the egr pipe is removed) for vacum/boost leaks cause a smoke test has revealed they both leak at the throttle body. A very poor fit.

- don't do what I did and permanently travel around with a decoy egr plugged in to the computer because you may not know if it gets stuck open (even though that may seem impossible) and you will cause damage.