TDV8 oil pressure concerns

[Graeme]

I fitted an oil pressure gauge because of an increasing number of bearing failures in the 4.4 SDV8 engines in the L405 and that the pressure specs indicate that low oil pressure is intentional.

I am concerned at my engine's dramatic drop in oil pressure within minutes of a cold start even with new Castrol Magnatec 5W30 A5 oil, being the same oil recommended for non-DPF TDV6/SDV6 engines. Upon start-up with oil that's done 10K kms the pressures are great, 40 psi at 1200 rpm and topping out at 65 psi at 3400 rpm due to the pressure relief valve opening, but once warm even with new oil the pressures are very low, topping out at 35 psi at 2800 rpm. The engine is very willing to work at 1250 rpm but oil pressure is only 15 psi, rising to 19 psi at 1500 rpm. These pressures are close to specifications. The vehicle has travelled 180K kms.

Having followed discusisons on the use of 5W40 oil in the TD/SDV6 engine, I'm now expecting to try a suitable 5W40 oil after around 5K kms of this new oil. I'll be able to monitor cold and hot pressures so will know whether to continue with 5W40 or revert to 5W30.

[p38arover]

Is this intentional low oil pressure all in the name of lowering friction to improve economy and lower emissions?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Good Job! I would like a 40 weight in mine..

[Graeme]

Yes, to reduce emissions. LR state that only low pressure is needed and Gen 2 SDV6 engines which might have a higher capacity pump have a solenoid-operated bypass to reduce idle pressure to save fuel to improve emissions.

I read that the A5/B5 oil specification is a fuel economy specification so dropping that spec in an otherwise suitable synthetic 5W40 is on the cards.

[Laurie]

Graeme
Is there any C1/C4 graded 5w-40 oil available yet, or will the A5/B5 specification be sufficient ? Very closely following this, as I'm contemplating to maybe buy a MY16 L405 TdV8 AB, instead of a very hard to find low k L322 4.4 TdV8 AB.

Laurie

[Graeme]

A quick check revealed that Castrol Magnatec Diesel DX 5W40 has C3 rating, suitable for DPFs. C3 is a mid-SAPS oil similar to C2 but with a slightly higher minimum viscosity than C2 oils, so possibly OK to use in the TDV8. A5/B5 oil can't be used with a DPF.

I would favour a MY16 L405 over a MY11/12 L322.

[Graeme]

The typical specs for Castrol Magnatec Diesel DX 5W40 and Castrol Edge A3/B4 5W40 are almost identical except for the low ASH in Diesel DX for DPF compatibility. The Kinematic viscosity @ 100 deg C is 13.4 for these 2 oils but only 10.1 for Magnatec Start-Stop 5W30 A5 and 9.6 for the obsoleted Magnatec Professional 5W30 A5, the original LR recommendation. Penrite HPR 5W40 is 14.4 which might be a better option if no DPF and hot pressures are still a little low.

I'll be replacing my just-changed Magnatec 5W30 A5 with Edge A3/B4 5W40 in the next day or 2.

[Laurie]

The Ford Spec for the 4.4 TdV8 is M2C913B, which is listed in the Penrite HPR 5W-40 Spec Sheet. If I'm reading this right, would it be suitable for Non-DPF 4.4TdV8's in Rangie's ?

Ford WSS-M2C913-B
The Ford M2C913-B specification is released in Europe for initial fill engine oils used for lubrication of spark ignition engines using gasoline and for compression ignition engines using diesel fuels. The specification is also used to define engine oils for servicing Ford engines where applicable. The oil shall meet all the requirements of the ILSAC GF-2 and GF-3 specification, the ACEA A1-98 and B1-98 specification and additional Ford requirements.

Laurie

[Graeme]

Yes, I've seen that and agree that the Penrite should be OK, although I expect that the Ford spec is for a more fuel efficient oil than the Penrite. Valvoline SynPower 5W40 A3/B4 is another although not for DPFs. However for other than using the specified oil for the duration of the warranty period, I'm done with thin fuel-efficient oil that doesn't provide adequate bearing protection. I've just done a run in 34 deg ambient using gears manually to keep revs at least 1500 to 1800 trying to keep oil pressure up to 15 psi, not liking 10-12 psi at 100 kph in 8th. 2000 rpm was needed to get to 20 psi on a gauge that tested 2 psi optimistic compared with my trusted German tyre pressure gauge at 20 psi in the tyre.

I ran out of time to collect the A3/B4 5W40 that I bought online yesterday so will collect it tomorrow and do the change-over tomorrow afternoon.

[Graeme]

I'm disappointed that oil pressure has only increased marginally across the rev range with the 5W40 A3/B4 oil. Revs and pressures in 35 deg ambient and oil temp 85 after a short drive on my driveway:
idle 12, 1200 15, 1500 20, 2000 30, 3000 still only 35 maximum, the same as new 5W30 A5 a few days ago. Maximum was just over 40 at 3000 rpm when the oil was 65 deg, which is about on spec for a new engine with 5W30 A5.

The pump part number has changed twice since this pump was first used on MY09 3.6 TDV6 and still on MY13 L405 4.4. I can change the pump myself providing the sump doesn't have to be dropped as stated in the WSM, hopfully like the TDV6 where the sump doesn't have to be lowered.

It's time to have a chat with a specialist about the whole issue.

[Bradtot]

Hi am I correct in thinking that our L322 with the 4.4 TDV8….is DPF free?..not fitted for Australia?
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Penrite HPR 5 w 40 is the same used in the TD5..
If I can use this then I have plenty as I still have my D2a and the l322 and I do my own oil changes[bigsmile1]
Interesting post I will watch with interest.

[Graeme]

If built for Australia then it shouldn't have a DPF but might have one if built for another country where the DPF was required.
If the "muffler" immediately behind the join of the 2 engnie pipes is small then it's not a DPF as the DPF is quite large. A VIN decoder will also indicate if it was built with a DPF.

[Graeme]

As the idle and maximum pressure now significantly exceed the specifications at oil temperature 65 degC and meet the specs at 85 degC, albeit with a gauge around 2 psi optimistic at 20 psi, I'll just ensure when towing especially in hot heather to use gears that keep the pressure half reasonable.
Oil temp was 91 today after the short PO run with pressures about the same as at 85 yesterday.

[Mjak42]

As the idle and maximum pressure now significantly exceed the specifications at oil temperature 65 degC and meet the specs at 85 degC, albeit with a gauge around 2 psi optimistic at 20 psi, I'll just ensure when towing especially in hot heather to use gears that keep the pressure half reasonable.
Oil temp was 91 today after the short PO run with pressures about the same as at 85 yesterday.

That’s a shame Graeme, thought you might have been onto something there with 5W40, but thanks for all the info, will definitely use the gears when towing to keep that pressure half reasonable as you said

[Graeme]

A3/B4 5W40 is definitely an improvement for warmer climates. For a while I considered Penrite HPR 10W50 for a little more pressure due to its slightly higher 100 deg viscosity. However I wouldn't know if the extra pressure was due to less oil escaping from the bearings or more resistance travelling through the galleries, possibly resulting in less available to the bearings, so I'll stay with 5W40. I consider that 5W40 causing the hot pressure specs to be met in my climate is about as good as it needs to be.

My son with my old 3.0 D4 isn't so concerned as the 6-speed gearbox means that his engine is spinning at 2000 rpm at 100 kph so the pressure will be considerably better and his bearings less loaded.

[Graeme]

I've decided to replace the pump, having ensured that the filter housing drain is blocked when the filter is fitted, pressed onto the spout without the cover fitted, held only by the friction of filter's internal o-ring. Oil dribbled into the area outside the filter until it overflows into the spout showed that the drain plug was adequately closed by the filter pressing on the plug's spring clip which when under pressure would be more inclined to seal, not less.
Maybe there won't be any pressure improvement, but hopefully there will be. I'll be taking a few measurements of both the new and the old.

[Laurie]

Graeme wasn't there someone on Ffrr who was modifying his oil pump for greater pressure ? (I can't seem to locate it at the moment.) Did you see it, or find anything worthwhile from his post ?
Laurie

[Graeme]

I don't recall seeing such a thread and haven't found any reference to problems with the 4.4's pump other than a few developing a weep from one of the plugs.

I think mine's issue is caused by excessive pump clearances rather than capacity because the cold/ambient pressures are excellent yet no smoke cold or hot so oil escaping from the bearings cannot be excessive. I'm just hoping that either my pump has been damaged, possibly by swarf when the twin drain was fitted by the selling dealer, or that the clearances have always been marginal.

I'm somewhat suspicious of LR's specs of 35 psi at 3000/3500 rpm with oil at 65 degC but unfortunately mine are the same at 95 degC with the 5W40 oil, unless the pressure is meant to be close to 35 at much lower revs whereas mine isn't. Today driving at 100 kph in 7th at 1600 rpm the pressure was under 20 psi - I cannot believe that is OK.

Edit: Last night I watched LRTime's video on the 3 TDV6 pumps so I now know the clearances on those pumps and the 4.4's should be similar. I'll get a new set of feeler gauges for the task.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

"Today driving at 100 kph in 7th at 1600 rpm the pressure was under 20 psi - I cannot believe that is OK."

Totally agree...

Sorry if I missed it but where and how are you measuring the Psi? Is there a physical gauge being sighted?

[Graeme]

I fitted a gauge, with the sender unit and pressure switch mounted in a T where the pressure switch was originally mounted. I installed the T etc while changing the radiator and hoses but access to the pressure switch is excellent if the vacuum pump is removed.
Mine then another owner's picture showing the vacuum pump removed.
189201189200

[Graeme]

New pump gear width 17.25mm and clearance to backplate 0.06mm (0.07 doesn't fit). I'll measure the old one for comparison and check its gears and backplate for scoring and that the relief valve seals, at least under gravity even if not under pressure.

Pump housing has 6H40-6600-DF in the casting. I'd like to know if this indicates a vehicle model as an indication as to when this version of the pump was introduced. I like that the pressure relief valve is retained by a roll-pin that is locked in by the backplate.

No dowels in either face so hopefully no need to lower the sump a little.

[Graeme]

After nearly $1,000 in expenses and more than 2 solid days work and risking a motor out job to replace the sump gasket if the gasket repair wasn't successful, there's no improvement whatsoever with the new pump.

My only comparison is with the good pressures through to mid-warm-up for which I now have no explanation.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Well you've successfully scared the crap out of me, cannot wait to sell this van so the RRS's towing life is over...

[scarry]

There is a mob in the UK called MDRS Automotive.
They change over hundreds of late model LR engines,maybe the could give some feedback on the issue?

FWIW,the LC200 has an oil pressure guage,and I notice the oil pressure when hot at idle is not much lower than at 100 Km/hr,which is around 1450 RPM.First start it is much higher then it gradually drops back as the engine warms up.

[shack]

After nearly $1,000 in expenses and more than 2 solid days work and risking a motor out job to replace the sump gasket if the gasket repair wasn't successful, there's no improvement whatsoever with the new pump.

My only comparison is with the good pressures through to mid-warm-up for which I now have no explanation.You seem like a very skilled operator from the posts you make, so you will most likely be aware of this.... But anyway...

Whilst I also don't like the figures you posted up earlier re pressure, it may will be enough for the design of that engine, remembering more oil pressure doesn't necessarily mean better engine protection.

In fact if it is too high, that can damage things as well.

You obviously won't have a baseline pressure for when the engine was new, but that would be an interesting thing to know.

I see you remarked some of these engines have had bearing problems, which is why you were looking at the pump, is that correct?

It may be a chicken and egg scenario with this situation, as after the pump....the next obvious cause of low oil pressure is the main bearings.

The fact that a low oil pressure warning isn't triggered by the numbers you are getting is also of interest, although not cut and dried with LRs reliability/quality control with Vee engines.

[shack]

FWIW,the LC200 has an oil pressure guage,and I notice the oil pressure when hot at idle is not much lower than at 100 Km/hr,which is around 1450 RPM.First start it is much higher then it gradually drops back as the engine warms up.

Are there any numbers on the gauge?

Not that it would necessarily mean much.

[scarry]

Are there any numbers on the gauge?

Not that it would necessarily mean much.

Unfortunately,no.

[Graeme]

The failures in the UK may be due to oil dilution from frequent incompleted then restarted DPF regens. LR changed the trigger for the computed oil dilution warning from something like 8% to around 18% because of some very short distances travelled since the last oil change. This combined with low hot pressures at the low revs at which the engine will happily operate may be the cause of the bearing failures.

Mine meets LR's pressure specs at idle and at 3500 at 85 degC even though specs are at 65 degC so I can only assume that the bearings are OK. Oil pressure at cold summer start-up is through the roof which makes me wonder if enough oil is getting through to all the bearings including the turbo's, but the engine is already up to temperature by the time I get to the tar road. I'll just ensure that I use a gear that keeps revs a few hundered rpm higher, always tow in sport mode and downshift to keep the revs up a little rather than my previous habit of upshifting all the time.

My temporary round oil pressure gauge will be replaced with a small 2-digit LED display located in the bottom right corner of the instrument cluster as a permanent reminder to drop a gear when pressure gets too low for my liking.

[Graeme]

FWIW,the LC200 has an oil pressure guage,and I notice the oil pressure when hot at idle is not much lower than at 100 Km/hr,which is around 1450 RPM.First start it is much higher then it gradually drops back as the engine warms up.Thanks - a similar story...

[BradC]

Whilst I also don't like the figures you posted up earlier re pressure, it may will be enough for the design of that engine, remembering more oil pressure doesn't necessarily mean better engine protection.

From my reading over the years, plain bearings in internal combustion engines rely on a "hydrodynamic wedge" of oil that keeps the surfaces separated. It's my understanding that this drag effectively pumps the oil through the bearing and that the oil supply pressure is there to ensure enough oil flow to continue to separate the surfaces. If that is the case, then as long as there's enough pressure to ensure replacement, flow and consequent cooling we're ok.

Remember these engines have piston squirters in them, so there's a considerable amount of oil required to keep the lifters pumped up and pistons cooled, let alone replenishing the plain bearings.

Do I like it? Hell no, but when fitting a higher flow (bigger impeller) pump and not seeing an increase in pressure it would indicate that maybe what's there is enough.

[DiscoDB]

The critical oil pressure for sufficient lubrication is at idle speed and maximum temps. So if the oil light isn’t flickering or coming on at idle, then you have more than the minimum required at the critical operating point.

The tests at the specific RPMs are to then confirm you are above the minimum on the pump curve at those RPMs and that the pump is performing as expected. As RPM goes up, both pressure and flow rates go up. As the oil gets hotter, pressure (resistance) drops but flow rates still increase.

As long as you don’t have some sort of internal bypass taking place, as indicated by the pressure tests at the specific RPM points, then the pump sounds like it is meeting the minimum pressures and flows needed.

[Graeme]

Do I like it? Hell no, but when fitting a higher flow (bigger impeller) pump and not seeing an increase in pressure it would indicate that maybe what's there is enough.The replacement pump has the same gear width as the original and the same gear to backplate gap of 0.06mm too, so presumably the same capacity and that the original wasn't measurably worn. I should have stuck with my earlier assessment that the pump wasn't worn but then convinced myself it worth replacing just in case it was.

[DiscoDB]

The replacement pump has the same gear width as the original and the same gear to backplate gap of 0.06mm too, so presumably the same capacity and that the original wasn't measurably worn. I should have stuck with my earlier assessment that the pump wasn't worn but then convinced myself it worth replacing just in case it was.

Us early TDV6 owners are already onto our second oil pump. So no harm no foul.

Now you have an oil pump you can set up an experiment with.

[Graeme]

Yes, I now know for sure that the pump is good whereas if it hadn't been changed then I would forever be wondering.

[botagtl]

Picking up this old thread.

Graeme have you found out what was your problem for the low pressure oil on your TDV8?

I'm currently with the same problem on mine. Low pressures at high temperatures.

But mine has already had its engine out 3 times with a lot of parts replaced with new parts.
Listing the main ones: oil pum, main bearings, crankshaft.
Now we are trying with new rods.

We tried with 5w40 but the result was the same as you.

I am out of ideas now [bigsad].

[Graeme]

I concluded that the oil in use at the time didn't maintain its viscosity at higher temperatures so switched to a different brand of oil but didn't get to repeat the conditions whilst i had the car, which is now my son's. I also consder that with its engine-driven fan, the cooling system can't handle the heat produced by this engine when working at low revs so decided to keep the gearbox in a lower gear to keep the revs higher for increased airflow through the radiators. Even when not towing, on 35C days I would drop to 7th climbing hills at 100 kph.
I note that my L405 has lower gearing and doesn't have an engine-driven fan, so kinder to the engine than the TDV8 L322.