Removal of mechanical injection pump from a diesel engine

[Pedro_The_Swift]

What are the timing requirements before pump removal?


I have a sticking throttle at first full throttle application of the day, when the bus is at operating temp it doesnt happen. The single bit of electronics inside the pump is working properly, the linkages and exterior attachment point all return as they should.
The engine returns to idle when shut down with the key.
The engine is a 10PC1 V10 14L Na diesel. Used in the C&E model series heavy Isuzu trucks like the Giga though the Giga's usually use its bigger brother the 10PE1 at 19L.

I understand no-one will have actually even seen one of these before but its an Isuzu engine from 1988,,, its not rocket science..

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Ok,, so as far as I can see, the issue is not the physical removal of the rather large pump,, its the data needed to re-time it?? Which you normally get from a book?

Is this vid a fair explanation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3NYl1X6NjY


Did you know that ISUZU no longer have anything to do with models before 2014? No parts, no info, no help in finding such info.

[Graeme]

My experience is only with timing 2 mechanical injector pumps and the procedures were specific to the engines with their own marks and gear positions, using instructions from their respective workshop manuals.

[Tins]

Hmm... This help, Pedro?

189303

[DiscoDB]

From what I can gather the 10PC1 is essentially the same as the 10PD1 and 10PE1. 🤞

Before you remove the injector pump, confirm the current timing by turning the engine crankshaft and cross checking the timing markings on the pump and flywheel as viewed via three inspection ports.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/8d7bcba9499c4b1674109f748542dce7.jpg

The translation is - rotate crankshaft until the timing on the flywheel lines up with the pointer, and then check the line marks on the injector pump.

There should be a Engine ID label on the rocker cover which confirms the actual engine model and if you are lucky the specific timing data for that model. Otherwise just maintain the timing you currently have. That is line up the injector pump line markings via the round inspection port, and then check what the timing shows at the flywheel.

There should also be a cover over the top of the injector pump drive gear and if you turn the crankshaft you will find indent markings on this as well for when installing. If there is no indent marking, then use a marker pen to mark which tooth was aligned with the reference point on the cover before you remove.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240312/3d13bbf18bd92363f9ad557081d0d246.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/9a59f32618bade801d983ca997f31302.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/421d6b2b9872d5af8c6df5879991df5e.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/f893d53ed853c3c2a83a9e3df295e8a9.jpg

Plus there is another smaller inspection port which also has markings on it that should line up when the main drive gear is at the indent marked position.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/eb27dc8975adf81b664984be817c9213.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240312/f337f29998753b37ecfab567672b44b2.jpg

If you find the markings between the main gear and the round inspection port do not line up, then there are four bolts on the main gear which have to be loosened off, and you rotate the injector pump drive shaft until the timing markers line up again, but then you have to make sure the timing to the crankshaft is correct.

The manual Tins found shows timing is either 16 or 17 degrees BTDC for the 10PD1, but I have also seen some nameplate labels showing 4 or 10 degrees on the 10PE1 motor, and 12 degrees on a 10PC1 motor. So they do vary the timing between different models.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/c7a21aab39d52b20e6ad3490a06a2443.jpg

Image above is from an ad for a 1989 model dump truck with the 10PC1 330hp engine which shows timing is 12 degrees BTDC. This label is next to the oil filler cap.

[DazzaTD5]

Did you know that ISUZU no longer have anything to do with models before 2014? No parts, no info, no help in finding such info.

what do you mean, as in?

I can go down to the local Isuzu dealer and buy parts for the Perentie engines. Like the updated crankshaft seal and ring.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Hmm... This help, Pedro?

189303


This is the bigger version, but cant hurt!!!:thumbsup:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

what do you mean, as in?

I can go down to the local Isuzu dealer and buy parts for the Perentie engines. Like the updated crankshaft seal and ring.

Isuzu Japan no longer give out any info or help on pre-2014 models..
And Isuzu Oz are even less helpful..

not really the peoples fault, I highly doubt any of these engines were sold here. The trucks they were put in were though...

[Pedro_The_Swift]

From what I can gather the 10PC1 is essentially the same as the 10PD1 and 10PE1. 🤞

Before you remove the injector pump, confirm the current timing by turning the engine crankshaft and cross checking the timing markings on the pump and flywheel as viewed via three inspection ports.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/8d7bcba9499c4b1674109f748542dce7.jpg

The translation is - rotate crankshaft until the timing on the flywheel lines up with the pointer, and then check the line marks on the injector pump.

There should be a Engine ID label on the rocker cover which confirms the actual engine model and if you are lucky the specific timing data for that model. Otherwise just maintain the timing you currently have. That is line up the injector pump line markings via the round inspection port, and then check what the timing shows at the flywheel.

There should also be a cover over the top of the injector pump drive gear and if you turn the crankshaft you will find indent markings on this as well for when installing. If there is no indent marking, then use a marker pen to mark which tooth was aligned with the reference point on the cover.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240312/3d13bbf18bd92363f9ad557081d0d246.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/9a59f32618bade801d983ca997f31302.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/f893d53ed853c3c2a83a9e3df295e8a9.jpg

Plus there is another smaller inspection port which also has markings on it that should line up when the main drive gear is at the indent marked position.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240313/eb27dc8975adf81b664984be817c9213.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240312/f337f29998753b37ecfab567672b44b2.jpg

If you find the markings between the main gear and the round inspection port do not line up, then there are four bolts on the main gear which have to be loosened off, and you rotate the injector pump drive shaft until the timing markers line up again, but then you have to make sure the timing to the crankshaft is correct.

The manual Tins found shows timing is either 16 or 17 degrees BTDC for the 10PD1, but I have also seen some nameplate labels showing 4 or 10 degrees on the 10PE1 motor. So they do vary the timing between different models.

You Guys ROCK!!! :banana::arms::twobeers::thumbsup:




The 10PC1 is the baby at 14L I think the 12PE1 is 22L?!?!?!??
These E&C series engines came out in a V8 and V10 and V12...
In Giga's etc...

[DiscoDB]

You Guys ROCK!!! :banana::arms::twobeers::thumbsup:




The 10PC1 is the baby at 14L I think the 12PE1 is 22L?!?!?!??
These E&C series engines came out in a V8 and V10 and V12...
In Giga's etc...

Just added a bit more to my post. Appears the 10PC1 timing is 12 degrees BTDC.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

And just to learn more,, the reason for the difference in deg BTDC is?
length of injection time?

you can obviously adjust BTDC?
pros? cons?

[DiscoDB]

Firstly, the timing would be specified by the manufacturer to deliver the best compromise between power, torque, fuel economy, engine life, and emissions, whilst taking into consideration the peak leverage point, time it takes to deliver the fuel, and the expected rpm at the peak torque point.

The later models may have retarded the timing to reduce emissions or sometimes to improve fuel efficiency but at the expense of power.

You can advance the timing a few degrees to get more power, but this can be at the expense of more smoke and you don’t want to inject far too early.

A good tuner should be able to tweak the timing.

[DiscoDB]

What are the timing requirements before pump removal?


I have a sticking throttle at first full throttle application of the day, when the bus is at operating temp it doesnt happen. The single bit of electronics inside the pump is working properly, the linkages and exterior attachment point all return as they should.
The engine returns to idle when shut down with the key.


When you say you have a sticky throttle, with the mechanical throttle linkages back to the pedal disconnected, from a cold start does the pump throttle stick open when you rev it at the injector pump (by hand).

Have you been able to observe exactly where it is sticking open?

Maybe something is binding up internally within the pump and it just needs a good cleaner put through it.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

From conversation with Tandy's ( at bus pickup) he had to exit the engine bay quite quickly and run for the ignition when he duplicated the stick,, so I'd say the pump throttle returns to idle..
Not adverse to running some form of cleaner, it will have to mix in 200 odd litres of diesel though..

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I ASSUME diesel injector cleaner will work on injector pumps... ?


This engine has had new injectors installed within the last two years...
I wonder if its the same cause...



https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51SuLv3UBSL._AC_SL1200_.jpg

[Tins]

Hear good things about this stuff (https://costeffective.com.au/product/crd-fuel-enhancer-for-common-rail-engines/), but who'd know? DiscoDB seems to find data sheets on most things.

[V8Ian]

I ASSUME diesel injector cleaner will work on injector pumps... ?


This engine has had new injectors installed within the last two years...
I wonder if its the same cause...



https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51SuLv3UBSL._AC_SL1200_.jpg
Or try one that really works.

Injector Cleaner - Diesel Injector & Fuel Injector Cleaner (https://costeffective.com.au/product/cleanpower-fuel-treatment/)

[DiscoDB]

Hear good things about this stuff (https://costeffective.com.au/product/crd-fuel-enhancer-for-common-rail-engines/), but who'd know? DiscoDB seems to find data sheets on most things.

Let’s just say I like to understand what makes some of these products “special”.

First up the Nulon Diesel Injector Cleaner is your typical kerosene based cleaner with some naphtha solvent. For 200L you would add 300ml. From a value for money point of view it is fairly low cost to try.

The Cost Effective CRD Fuel Enhancer product is interesting in that it is >90% base oil (like found in two stroke oil) with a small dose of naphtha solvent (<5%), a small dose of naphthalene (<1%), and a small dose of phosphoric acid (<1%). To me it reads like a two stroke oil but added at lower doses. Can not work why it is so “special” beyond being like dosing with a good quality two stroke oil - which by all accounts does work.

Another option which also gets good reviews may be Cost Effectives FTC Decarbonizer which is >60% naphtha solvent with some anti-fungal agents. You would start with a double dose of 250ml for 200L.

The other product to also consider is to give the system a shock treatment of Fuel Doctor (add 1L for 200L fuel, then repeat). Fuel Doctor is an ethanol based fuel treatment with alcohol cleaning agents to dissolve any contaminants and remove carbon and gum build up. Probably a good idea if the vehicle has been sitting unused for extended periods in the past.

Many of these products do have a whiff of snake oil about them, but if they are based on good cleaning agents it hard to see how they can’t offer some benefits. Compared to the cost of removing and stripping down the fuel injector pump I would be giving these a go. Probably starting with Fuel Doctor first, then FTC Decarbonizer and Nulon Diesel Injector Cleaner.

[DiscoDB]

Or try one that really works.

Injector Cleaner - Diesel Injector & Fuel Injector Cleaner (https://costeffective.com.au/product/cleanpower-fuel-treatment/)

Certainly no harm trying and also gets good reviews.

Cleanpower is a detergent based fuel treatment, so very minimal hazardous chemicals added - just a small dose of naphtha solvent and some Tetraethylenepentamine added. A double dose only needs 50ml to treat 200L of fuel.

I have a bottle of this which I am yet to try for myself. You can also buy with 2 bottles of FTC Decarbonizer and comes with the Ezypor dispenser which makes getting the right dose of FTC easy.

Engine Decarbonizer Pack - Cost Effective Maintenance (https://costeffective.com.au/product/ftc-special-offer/)

I do use FTC myself - more as a preventative cleaner, but can’t say I have noticed any change and do still get the occasional sticky turbo actuator fault, so will be trying a two stroke oil after a go with Cleanpower.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I doubt I will ever run the bus near empty,, and near empty may mean 50 odd litres left, each side... do these concoctions play nice with one another??

[DiscoDB]

Generally speaking they do different jobs and target different problems. You don’t need to run empty. After the initial full tank treatments you dose on a per litre added basis.

FTC and Cleanpower are sold together and normally used in conjunction with each other. One is added immediately before refuelling, the other after refuelling. Cost Effective claim they work better when used together. One being a detergent, and the other a solvent. So no concerns here.

Fuel Doctor is also a detergent/solvent and more for if you have had bad fuel in the system, designed to break down fungus and bacterial contamination, and also claims to dissolve gums and carbon. Cost Effective also claim FTC will breakdown any fungus and bacteria.

Fuel Doctors note if you do have a fungus in your fuel, then kerosene/hydrocarbon based cleaners like Nulon will just contribute to the problem and feed the fungus - hence they recommend treating with Fuel Doctor first. Fuel Doctors also claim it will breakdown any residues left from other hydrocarbon based additives. The Cost Effective products would do the same.

So to start, try either the Cost Effective products (Cleanpower and FTC), or Fuel Doctor, and don’t bother with the Nulon Diesel Injector Cleaner. Both Cost Effective and Fuel Doctors make similar claims, and can provide similar good reviews and testimonials from customers.

They do end up being diluted out of the system anyway on each refuel, so if unsuccessful move on to the next one. They will either work, or be harmless.

[V8Ian]

While you have the the tanks isolated, use the additive of your choice, in the feed tank, dosed to the full capacity and use that tank until almost empty.

[Blknight.aus]

theres a bunch of timing marks on various gears withing the gear drive train, line em up and pull the pump... however....

so long as you're putting the exact same pump on the same engine you can get away with setting the engine in a position, making alingment marks on gears with a paint pen and then making scribe lines on the pump body and engine mounting area (paint pen will likely be removed when the pump is worked on so dont rely on that..

You should be able to spill time that injector pump and the injection timing should be written on the data plate on both or either of the engine and pump..

If you get lucky the injection pump timing marks will be setup so the pump is correctly timed when the all the timing marks line up. If the injection pump mark doesnt line up when the other marks on the timing gears line up (usually TDC #1 injectiing) it means you have to make sure all your timing is correct and then advance the engine until the timing marks are about to line up but set the crank at the correct Deg BTDC and then mount the pump. If you're in this group theres also usually some kind of holding pin or tool to keep the injector pump in the correct position during fitment.

Good luck.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Cleanpower bought, will be picked up when passing through Toowoomba..