Strange wear pattern on big-end shell bearings

[gromit]

I dropped the sump on my IIa GS as it's running low oil pressure.
I removed the shell bearings from No4 and there is a strange wear pattern I've never seen before.

No undersize on the shell bearings so out with a micrometer and I found the big ends are STD, maybe the Army replaced the crankshaft ?
The journal looked & felt OK, no ridges matching the wear marks ??

I carved out a lot of sludge from the sump pan and the outside was equally as filthy so the sump hasn't been removed for many years.


Colin

[JDNSW]

I don't think I have ever seen anything like that either. I wonder if it is an artifact from running with very dirty oil or perhaps low oil pressure, so that the pressure is not spreading the oil right across the journal?

[Slunnie]

What type of oil has it been running? Conventional non-synthetic?

[gromit]

What type of oil has it been running? Conventional non-synthetic?

In the short amount of time I've had it running ......conventional 20W50 prior to that who knows ?

I did wonder if there are two raised sections on the steel backing, when you wear through the white metal they come into play ??

Being a hydrodynamic bearing the shells only come into contact with the journal briefly on startup or if there is a loss of oil pressure. Going through to the backing would, long term, wear grooves in the journal.
When the new bearings arrive I'll remove the other three and see if they are the same.


Colin

[Tins]

Wow. That's weird. If there were any decent engine builders left I'd ask one of them. I would have thought if it was a low pressure thing then the oil wedge would fail to form across the whole bearing face. Impurities seems more likely to me, but I don't claim expert status.

As for the Army replacing the crank, that would really only have been done at a Base Workshop, probably not at a detached or field shop. I'm tipping you don't have any records of this. There would have been a paper trail, because the Army had whole battalions of clerks back then, unless the car was in theatre when it would be anyone's guess, but major work like that would be unlikely. Anyway, I digress. The Army certainly did major overhaul work, at least at 2 Base where I was for a time. A new crank, in heavy greased paper, could have been sitting on a shelf in Stores for years. They did things like that back then.

[workingonit]

Just a moment... (https://www.underhoodservice.com/the-spin-on-spun-bearings/)

Matches your pattern. Given low oil pressure maybe you were on the verge of more significant damage?

Could just be the optics in the photo, but are the right hand edges of top and bottom shells not entirely square?

And another possibility - imperfect journal geometry https://www.kingbearings.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/En_Poster_Analysis-Landscape-Guide.pdf

[gromit]

Just a moment... (https://www.underhoodservice.com/the-spin-on-spun-bearings/)

Matches your pattern. Given low oil pressure maybe you were on the verge of more significant damage? The tangs would stop the shell spinning and weren't damaged. Oil pressure was low but not that low.

Could just be the optics in the photo, but are the right hand edges of top and bottom shells not entirely square? They are square, it's the angle of the photo.

And another possibility - imperfect journal geometry https://www.kingbearings.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/En_Poster_Analysis-Landscape-Guide.pdf Maybe, great fault finding chart though.

The motor has been running with those bearings for a fair amount of time. Possibly while still in service then the previous owner and then to me. I've been slowly bringing it back to roadworthy condition and have only started & run the engine 2-3 times per year moving it around the property. Mind you I've owned it for a few years.....
2a GS Refurb ARN 178-334 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/leaf-sprung-military-land-rovers/125841-2a-gs-refurb-arn-178-334-a.html)

Replacement shell bearings have left the UK, it'll be interesting if the other shells show the same wear pattern when I drop the big-end caps.

Colin

[gromit]

Well that'll teach me to look in an old Series II manual, the shells turned up and they are not the correct ones !

Turns out the engine is an early Series II 2.25 and the big end bearings are a different size to the later II, IIa & III motor.
Part number on the original shells is 248747 (probably a supplier number rather than a LR number) in a workshop manual I found pn 239834 which seem to be obsolete or advertised at a crazy price.

I may have to re-assemble with the old shells to keep the vehicle mobile while I either track some down or consider an engine swap.

Colin

[workingonit]

...track some down or consider an engine swap.

I believe Len Beadell would just make new ones from a saucepan.

Custom made? King | King Engine Bearings Australia | Conrod Bearings | Main Bearings | Chevrolet | Ford | Holden

(https://www.superformance.com.au/b/king)

[gromit]

I believe Len Beadell would just make new ones from a saucepan.

Custom made? King | King Engine Bearings Australia | Conrod Bearings | Main Bearings | Chevrolet | Ford | Holden

(https://www.superformance.com.au/b/king)

The later shells supplied from Paddocks were from King Engine Bearings (US) at a cost of $17.54 Earlier shells if you can find them are much, much more expensive.
Another post mentioned TD5 shells. Tang on the wrong side, narrower & no holes for the conrod squirters (but the holes were discontinued later in production anyway) same dimensions otherwise.

I'm not happy about removing tangs and then having nothing to stop rotation. This shouldn't happen but depends then on the 'nip' between cap & conrod to grip the shells. Certainly an option to pursue if I can't find the correct ones, might be possible to make some tooling to hold the shell & form a tang.


Colin

[Gippslander]

Here is a guide to bearing wear, failure and correct assembly techniques it may help.

https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/media/local-media-north-america/pdfs-&-thumbnails/catalogs-and-literature/engine-bearings/ceb-2-1114-engine-bearing-failures-brochure.pdf

I hope it helps.[biggrin]

[Tins]

I believe Len Beadell would just make new ones from a saucepan.



(https://www.superformance.com.au/b/king)

Nah. He had half a dozen spare Landies.... Smart man.

Still, I've heard of blokes making some out of leather to get 'em out of trouble. Whether that's apocryphal, well who knows? Seen some pretty ingenious repairs in my time. Not sure how you'd prevent them from spinning, but perhaps it wouldn't matter if it got you home.

[V8Ian]

Nah. He had half a dozen spare Landies.... Smart man.

Still, I've heard of blokes making some out of leather to get 'em out of trouble. Whether that's apocryphal, well who knows? Seen some pretty ingenious repairs in my time. Not sure how you'd prevent them from spinning, but perhaps it wouldn't matter if it got you home.
Quite authentic. A friend of my Father did so. He and his wife were moving from Sydney to Brisbane, before it was even trendy. They had all their worldly possessions in the back of an FE Ute, when the big ends started rattling as they approached Woolongabba Five. He parked with the left wheels on the curb and laid in the gutter, performing surgery on the grey motor, in sight of the copper on point duty. The repair held up until they established themselves in permanent accommodation. The fellow was a fitter/machinist of some note.
Fortunately it apparently, was not wet season. [biggrin]

[JDNSW]

Not exactly what is being discussed, but in 1963 a new hire showed in camp in his FE Holden - making a most peculiar noise. Turns out, the unusual noise was because it was a five cylinder engine, or at least five piston. The sixth piston and connecting rod, with a knackered big end, was on the back seat. Oil pressure was preserved by a strip of jam tin wrapped round the journal and secured by a few turns of tie wire twitched up tight. Still running on five cylinders when he quit a few months later, as far as I can remember.

[gromit]

Found some big end shells, they were in the last place I thought to check !

Hopefully I'll install over the weekend.


Colin

[Lionelgee]

Found some big end shells, they were in the last place I thought to check !

Hopefully I'll install over the weekend.


Colin

Hello Colin,

Found somewhere as in you had previously bought some and they were hiding in that point of no return 'safe place'. Then they mysteriously appeared. Or was it a 'place' such as a retailer that would not normally be on your usual proven supplier list?

Kind regards
Lionel

[Tins]

Found some big end shells, they were in the last place I thought to check !



Possibly because once you found them you stopped looking?

[Tins]

Not exactly what is being discussed, but in 1963 a new hire showed in camp in his FE Holden - making a most peculiar noise. Turns out, the unusual noise was because it was a five cylinder engine, or at least five piston. The sixth piston and connecting rod, with a knackered big end, was on the back seat. Oil pressure was preserved by a strip of jam tin wrapped round the journal and secured by a few turns of tie wire twitched up tight. Still running on five cylinders when he quit a few months later, as far as I can remember.

I have seen that done, grey motor, in a dusty shed in Deni. Only, plumbing solder was used to plug the journal gallery hole. Watching the journal get heated sufficiently for the solder to take was cringeworthy. Dunno how long the "repair" lasted, but I wouldn't want to reuse that crank.

[gromit]

Hello Colin,

Found somewhere as in you had previously bought some and they were hiding in that point of no return 'safe place'. Then they mysteriously appeared. Or was it a 'place' such as a retailer that would not normally be on your usual proven supplier list?

Kind regards
Lionel

When I realised they were the wrong shell bearings my wife said "why did you waste your money getting the wrong ones ?"
Then it occurred to me....there were odd sets of shell bearings that came in a job lot I purchased a while back but most were incomplete.

Down to the back shed in the dark with a head torch on, find the box with the assorted shell bearings. The numbers made no sense as they are manufacturers numbers, offered up an old shell and turns out there was a NOS STD set of shells from AE Autoparts.
Back indoors, told the wife and she said "well why didn't you check before ordering the wrong ones ?".

Can't argue with her logic......


Colin

[JDNSW]

I have seen that done, grey motor, in a dusty shed in Deni. Only, plumbing solder was used to plug the journal gallery hole. Watching the journal get heated sufficiently for the solder to take was cringeworthy. Dunno how long the "repair" lasted, but I wouldn't want to reuse that crank.

My story was between Normanton and Croydon. As near as I can remember, he said it was done by the side of the road between Burketown and Normanton.