No Respect for Vietnam Vets

[p38arover]

Read this and tell me what you think: http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/index.php?board=17;action=display;threadid=21778

I couldn't reply after reading it 'cos I was so angry. I'll have to calm down first.

Ron

[rmp]

Makes me sad rather than angry. It's a narrow-minded variation on shooting the messenger, or playing the man not the ball.

Intelligent humans should be able to respect and support the indvidual soliders while disagreeing with their actions as a collective. Those actions are not determined by them but by the pollies, a point the poster seems understand but then fails connect the rest of the dots.

Many people simply do not understand military personnel don't get to choose the wars they fight.

[scrambler]

Read this and tell me what you think: http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/index.php?board=17;action=display;threadid=21778

I couldn't reply after reading it 'cos I was so angry. I'll have to calm down first.

Ron

Agree with you, Ron. I used to work for Veterans Affairs and it was clear that a lot of the psychological damage of Vietnam versus WW2 was that Vietnam Vets were greeted on return with just this sort of behaviour. It's bad enough to do a tough (let alone potentially deadly) job let alone when conscripted and particularly when you are greeted not with thanks but with hostility. This came through in people's descriptions of the traumas, where the gruesome realities of the battlefield were often overshadowed by the responses of the Australian public.

Steve

[Stepho_62]

Ron

In my humble opinion the letter is a balanced statement of how the guy feels.

For me, what he is saying is wrong. The simple difference in our views is this.

I believe our vietnam vetrans put their lives on the line to do something that they felt was the right thing to do.

They (the men & women that enlisted) believed (rightly or wrongly) that australias soveirgnty and security was being threatened, they were drafted and they were breaking the law of the land at the time if they didn't go.

For this we owe them a deep debt of gratitude, exactly the same as we do all men and women who have offered thier lives in defence of our country. What they fought for idealistically was to keep our country safe so people like the author of that letter could make the public statements like he did with impunity. He just doesn't know how lucky he is to have had people around that did the right thing.

Regards,

[Bytemrk]

Ron, I understand your anger...

As others have said.. I think he has a right to his opinion.... despite the fact that I strongly disgree with it..

He is right that the pollies of the day are those he should have an issue with...

But I feel he is VERY wrong - to respond to the vets like that..

He says...
how can you say "well done" or even "thanks" for doing what you think is wrong?
It just seems to show some basic ignorance to me.... many of the guys that went to Vietnam - did not want to go - they went as it was their legal obligation at the time... unlike those that chose to break the law to get out of going...

Brave young men - who did as was expected at the time - I understand that societies opinions have changed.... but the way these men were treated on their return was disgusting...

Every Anzac day I take my kids to a dawn service.... it is so important that they learn about the sacrifices made. by the troops sent to EVERY conflict Australia has been involved in..

The sort of attitude this guy shows- to me is very sad ...to hold a grudge against soldiers doing their duty for so many years is in itself a comment on his credibility...

Mark

[Grover]

How dare a whimpy little so and so, like this be allowed to write and have published his dribble. He actually has the nerve to put his self preserving gutless brother as a "Maybe" Hero. He held up a flag and got arrested. Big "F------" Whoop !!! Soldiers do not get the chance to say. "I don't want to go to this war, But hay, I might go to the next one".!!!! What a Dum F--K.!!! Its a shame people died in previous wars so this piece of S---T could live the way he does. The Ungratefull B-----d.:mad:

[George130]

I refrained from posting on this one this morning. My view is you may disagree on hte war and that is your right but at least show some respect and acnowledgement for those that went and did their part. He has the right post write what he likes but it does show he's either after the quick cudos or just doesn't respect what sacrifices those who go to war make.

[drivesafe]

Calm down Grover, the guys that went to Nam did so in the belief that they were ultimately protecting the rights of ALL Australians, even if in means protecting the rights of this sum bag.

The thing that gets me, as already pointed out, is that this brain-dead retard still hasn’t got it and as Ron pointed out, at the time, the ***** wasn’t even old enough to know what was going on.

Won’t go further as this type of no brainer gets my blood boiling too.

Cheers.

[OLR-067]

Hi All,
Like most ppl I beleive in the ideals of freedom of speech. However I do not beleive such lack of respect should be tolerated, rather it should be pitied for it's ignorance.I was born in 71, too young to see first hand the protesting etc. However,I beleive we have an obligation is this country to support our service ppl , even if we disagree with the politcs.As part of citizenship we have obligations .Not to stand up and show respect for the vets is an absolute insult and Un-Australian....would this guy pull me out of a car crash if I had a vets sticker on my car...I would not count on it..and if I cant count on my fellow citizens in times of need then what's the point...
cheers
OLR-067

[numpty]

I agree. It's no use condemning those who went. However I have an issue with " those that went did so in the belief that they were doing what was right".
I think the majority that were "sent" did so because the pollies of the day thought that that was the right thing to do.
Much the same as now. Needless to say those that in the forces who do go overseas do a fabulous job and we should all be proud of them.
Perry

[discoute]

Hi All,

I have read this post and re-read this post several times over several hours. It makes me very angry and I have now calmed down slightly. But still feel to need to reply. Behind every event great and horrible event like war there are ordinary people who go through things that we can only begin to imagine.

Some years ago I worked with an ex-vietnam vet and over the years we became quite good friends. He confided in me in many things including his experiences of the vietnam war. He sustained a lot of physoligal damage because of the war, his first marriage breaking down because of it. (as I am sure did many) He told me how he had been conscripted and yes he like many others who had did not want to go but were given no choice. He told me of the horrors he had faced on the battle field, he told me that the whole ordeal was horrible. But he said that what upset him most of all was the return to australia, he was in the parade he did have blood thrown upon him and he was subjected to threats and abuse. He said that after the ordeal of war none of his mates (that did thankfully return) ever expected such treatment from their fellow australians. He also told me that this upset him the most.

I would like to also mention that it took him some 13 years before he could even start to open up to anyone about his experiences.

I am all for freedom of speech, however this narrowminded idiot who would not stand up out of respect for these fine men who defended our Country, at the time believing that they were keeping our country safe and allowing us to keep our freedom of speech seriously needs a reality check.

I wonder would he treat all war vetrans in this way. All war is a terrible thing. & yes as someone else wrote in one of the posts the average guy is just a pawn between politicians in any war. Let us not forget that a lot of these brave men didn't want to be there in the first place. They endured terrible conditions that I am grateful my husband, brother etc have not had to endure let alone the advast effects afterwards.

To this narrow minded ****** who would not stand up I would just like to say, you are a complete idiot you were too young to form any opinion on the issure at the time. So was I, I was born in 1965 so I was too young to have or voice an opinion. But I was old enough to finally listen to my friend and perhaps our unpatriotic friend should meet some of these people so that now he is old enough he can finally form his own opinion now that he is old enough to have one.

Yes we do have freedom of speech in this country and you can thank all war veterans for that fact. I would also like to add that the internet is a very amazing thing here we can say whatever we want without anyone knowing where we live etc. Imagine a vietnam vet reading this and knowing where this person lived one can only ponder.

Thank you all for your time I will now get off my soap box.

Regards,
Annette.

[Grover]

as an ex-serviceman I was disgusted by his letter, my father fought in vietnam, my grandfather in wwII, Although i did not see active duty in my stint, I would have served and maybe have died for this Idiot.

[George130]

I havn't talk to any of the Vietnam vets and am to young for that one. I have talk to one of my previous bosses who endured the peace keeping efforts of rawanda and a couple of the other ops of that time. For what they found and had to endure its mind boggling what people will do to others. Glad I didn't cop what they did.

[Jamo]

The actions of this individual have nothing to do with the war, IMHO, and everything to do with himself.

His protest was no about the war or the vets, but about drawing attention to himself. He didn't get enough at the march, so he posted to get more. Obviously deprived as a child, he sees any attention as good attention.

On another point, It's now believed that if the conscripts were kept in the system for 12 months after their return from vietnam, they would have had far less problems as they would have been around other blokes with the same experiences and had time to talk it out. Dumping them straight back into a hostile civvy street was one of the worst things that the govt could have done.

At the end of the day, "only they deserve freedom who have the courage to defend it".

[p38arover]

You've all made valid comments. I also agree with the right to free speech - up to a point. However, there are times when it doesn't apply.

For example the (I think) New York Times'printing of how the US found some of the terrorist plotters, i.e., money transfers, etc. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/6/26/192453.shtml

That information should have never been published - the editor should have killed that story. What it did was show terrorists how to be more circuspect if they wanted to avoid detection.

Having said that, this chap had the right to say what he did - but so happens that I think he was wrong in what he did.

I don't believe that conscientious objectors were cowards. They stood up for what they believed and some had gaol terms. I didn't want to go to Vietnam and was very pleased to fail the medical - but had I passed I would have gone.

Lastly, this may seem trivial but I was annoyed by his reference to Land Rovers and oil leaks in such a serious discussion. In general, I'm not too upset by comments about oil leaks but in this case he has used it to try to put humour into it.

Ron

[slipedisk]

When peacekeepers, peacemakers and peacemonitors go to other "place's" they defend all their country's people. The Defence force are not always sent to places to "dispose" of the bad people they have other roles to play some are not all good, 90% are very rewarding, seeing the face of a young girl/boy who you know has had there whole family from 15-55 "taken" from them and having them saying "thank you for protecting what I have left" I think says it all.
As an old guy said to me one day on ANZAC day we all don't like War but it beats speaking another language in my country.

If it hasn't been posted yet, I think it might have, have a look at/search "A pittance of time" on the net this song says it all.
The worlds made up of all kinds.

Cheers

[stevo68]

I concur with all the comments above, I think and Jamo has touched on it, that his post was aimed at achieving the type of comments that has since resulted, it was purposely meant to be sensational, we all know or have known this type of ****wit. It wasnt about free speech or anything along those lines, I guarantee it was made to incite some sort of backlash, which in the whole it has. He full well knows the type of responses that would be illicited from a post like that, instead he tries to put it across with an air or innocence, may ****.

Whats more grating, its a little bit like trying to walk in someone elses shoes, if you werent there, dont form opinions based on someone elses, have the kahonies to do some fact and research. See the little ***** has caught me in his web..........................silence :D

Regards

Stevo

[Ace]

Hi All,

I have read this post and re-read this post several times over several hours. It makes me very angry and I have now calmed down slightly. But still feel to need to reply. Behind every event great and horrible event like war there are ordinary people who go through things that we can only begin to imagine.

Some years ago I worked with an ex-vietnam vet and over the years we became quite good friends. He confided in me in many things including his experiences of the vietnam war. He sustained a lot of physoligal damage because of the war, his first marriage breaking down because of it. (as I am sure did many) He told me how he had been conscripted and yes he like many others who had did not want to go but were given no choice. He told me of the horrors he had faced on the battle field, he told me that the whole ordeal was horrible. But he said that what upset him most of all was the return to australia, he was in the parade he did have blood thrown upon him and he was subjected to threats and abuse. He said that after the ordeal of war none of his mates (that did thankfully return) ever expected such treatment from their fellow australians. He also told me that this upset him the most.

I would like to also mention that it took him some 13 years before he could even start to open up to anyone about his experiences.

I am all for freedom of speech, however this narrowminded idiot who would not stand up out of respect for these fine men who defended our Country, at the time believing that they were keeping our country safe and allowing us to keep our freedom of speech seriously needs a reality check.

I wonder would he treat all war vetrans in this way. All war is a terrible thing. & yes as someone else wrote in one of the posts the average guy is just a pawn between politicians in any war. Let us not forget that a lot of these brave men didn't want to be there in the first place. They endured terrible conditions that I am grateful my husband, brother etc have not had to endure let alone the advast effects afterwards.

To this narrow minded ****** who would not stand up I would just like to say, you are a complete idiot you were too young to form any opinion on the issure at the time. So was I, I was born in 1965 so I was too young to have or voice an opinion. But I was old enough to finally listen to my friend and perhaps our unpatriotic friend should meet some of these people so that now he is old enough he can finally form his own opinion now that he is old enough to have one.

Yes we do have freedom of speech in this country and you can thank all war veterans for that fact. I would also like to add that the internet is a very amazing thing here we can say whatever we want without anyone knowing where we live etc. Imagine a vietnam vet reading this and knowing where this person lived one can only ponder.

Thank you all for your time I will now get off my soap box.

Regards,
Annette.

My ex girlfriends uncle was one of those men. He was a sniper during Vietnam and copped a piece of shrapnel to his kidney or liver cant remember which but it still haunts him today. My ex girlfriends mum (his sister) told me bits and pieces but also told me never to talk to him about it as it was to hard for him to discuss it.

I added my two cents worth in, its not him having an opinion that gets me angry its the fact that he is shooting the messenger so to say. These men had no say over what happened they just did as they were ordered to, not really their fault. Matt

[DirtyDawg]

Its not till you have shared the hardship of combat that forges a brotherhood that only those who have been there would understand. The rest is just hearsay from a bunch of people with no experiance, just opinions, just that, opinions and the reason they get to have opinions voiced is because of those who have shared the hardship of war for the right, for all those non-experianced to have their hearsay opinions...like you Ron I was too ****ed off to reply.

[FenianEel]

My Dad served in Malaya & Vietnam, many of my family have served in various conflicts back to WW1, and I have many mates who have served, or are currently serving in conflicts, so I have a subjective view.

The guy has a right to his opinion and has the right for other people with intestinal fortitude and real aggots to defend his right.
If he wasn't a sh*tstirrer he wouldn't have posted, he wouldn't have asked the question.
We can take pride as a Nation that he is at least able to post such crap.
I would like to meet his Brother and him, take them to the RSL, or introduce them to a few vets. Expand their narrow views and sheltered judgements.
The fact he looks upon his brothers actions as anything near admirable and brave, shows his doesnt know sh*t from clay.
I don't advocate violence against weaker people or beings, but....if he put on that show and I was sitting behind him at the footy though..I would've told him those men and similar men before him, provided him with the right to make his little "protest", so for that alone he should stand up

Then I would've clipped him:twisted: :wasntme:

[RobHay]

For what it is worth:
I think he has no right to say what he said, nor has he the right to show disrespectful behaviour to a body of men and women who dispite wanting desperately to be some place else, did a fine job in a very difficult situation.

Was he directly affected by the Vietnam War, I doubt it...he was still running around in kimbies, did he lose a relative there or have one come home permanetly scared, I doubt it...they were too busy trying to rip the soul out of this nation.

His opinion has been shaped by bigotted fools who he has been in contact with over the years, only trouble is he has closed his mind to any other opinion and the truth so as to justify his stance and to confirm to himself that he has been right in his beliefs all these years.

Australians have displayed great mateship over the years, no problem to give a neighbour a hand,go that little bit further to give a bloke a chance and a fair go, we have not had a reputation of being a racist country and if you were "alright" you were accepted.

The WW1 Diggers finished up having a great admiration for the Turkish Soldier because the Turk displayed the qualities that we admired in a person.

I recently watched a re-union, on TV,of some of the Long Tan combatants and there was certainly respect from both sides for the valor and skills displayed by each side.

My experience has been that it is only fools who do not respect the qualities of the enermy they are facing, and they are generally the ones you send home to Mum in a body bag.

The Diggers who went to Nam certainly did not bring discredit to this country, although some civilians did and are still doing so.

By all means disagree with the climate and the politicians that embroiled us in Viet-Nam, but have the guts to stand up and say " Hey fella, I disagree with what you were ordered to do, but I applaud you for showing great Aussie spirit and resourcfullness in a difficult and dangerous situation".

In closing, If I had of been there he would not have been sitting not would he have been standing. And should he ever visit this forum, by all means PM me I am quite prepared to supply my name and address should he wish to visit to discuss the matter further.

:mad: :nazilock:

[Yabbie]

Still need to be told just how being at war with Iraq and any other war for that matter other then WW2 against the Japanese relates to the immediate protection of australia. But then war seldomly is about protection. What are we in Iraq for Weapons of Mass distruction wasn't it? or was it Oil??
This guy has played you all like fiddles.
The worst part is now his has it running over 2 sites atleast.
I have no problem with the freedom of speech part, The failure to self censor well we all have heard my thoughts on that before.

[weeds]

one another note, i went to the gaythorn RSL last night for dinner to see a mate off thats going on his second tour of iraq and i could believe that somebody would be in to much of a rush to not pause for last post

as i was walkiing in with the family last post started play, my family stopped along with 3 or 4 others, however an older lady continued to walk out of the RSL, one of the guys asked the lady if she could pause for last post, she replied EXCUSS YOU, started to walk off again before it sunk in and she stopped untill last post had finished

[Phoenix]

This really isn;'t about war, right or wrong. Governmnts make those decisions, and deserve no respect for that at all.

The men sent to do the task however deserve all the respect that this country can muster. Being a youngin (born 1981) WW2 is something rather distanced to me. I know about the men, machines and polotics of it, but it seems another world away from today. Vietnam isn't so departed to me however. I'm in the middle of reading a book called "Sand, Surgery and Siagon Tea". It does not focus on the frontline combat troops, but is one mans story about his service as a doctor to 8 field ambulance at Vung Tau.

The hell that these people had to endure was amazing, and they weren't even frontline troops, although they did repair a lot of those who were very badly wounded in the line of duty. It has done nothing but increase my respect of those that went to any conflict, and has certainly made me more determined to finish restoring my vehicles as a memorial of sorts to them.

[dobbo]

Ron, you posted a very calm reply to that Tool. I have never served, I wasn't even born during most of that time of war. I do however have a respect for the people who have risked their lives to protect this great country of ours.

That guy is a disrespectful idiot. Don't let him worry you.

I had to shorten this post deleting my true feelings about this bloke, but if he was next to me in that crowded stadium and didn't stand. I would have made sure he got up even if I had to pick his Dead **** hide off the seat myself

[slipedisk]

I remember a story told by my mother who lived in London as a kid in the last yrs of WW1 and live through out WW2 bombings and dad in WW2, she once told me, true or not?????????, that if Hitler had one he would have "gotten rid off" all but blonde hair/blue eyed people, that counts me out, sometimes peoples actions wrong or write have actions on how things turn out. If the persons who didn't win what they did I know I wouldn't be here today and maybe alot of us either and I dare say either way he wouldn't have been where he was watching what he was in comfort.
To add to the insult we'd be driving VW's or Merc's anyway not L/R!!!!!:( :(

[slipedisk]

E-mail that I received today;

From the daughter of a Soldier.

Last week I was in Melbourne attending a conference. While I was in the airport, returning home, I heard several people behind me beginning to clap and cheer. I immediately turned around and witnessed one of the greatest acts of patriotism I have ever seen.
Moving through the terminal was a group of soldiers in their uniforms, as they began heading to their gate everyone (well almost everyone) was abruptly to their feet with their hands waving and cheering. When I saw the soldiers, probably 30-40 of them, being applauded and cheered for, it hit me. I'm not alone. I'm not the only red blooded Australian who still loves this country and supports our troops and their families.
Of course I immediately stopped and began clapping for these young unsung heroes who are putting their lives on the line everyday for us so we can go to school, work, and enjoy our home without fear or reprisal. Just when I thought I could not be more proud of my country or of our service men and women a young girl, not more than 6 or 7 years old, ran up to one of the male soldiers. He knelt down and said "hi," the little girl then asked him if he would give something to her daddy for her. The young soldier didn't look any older than maybe 22 himself, said he would try and what did she want to give to her daddy. Suddenly the little girl grabbed the neck of this soldier, gave him the biggest hug she could muster and then kissed him on the cheek.
The mother of the little girl, who said her daughters name was Courtney, told the young soldier that her husband was a Corporal and had been in Afghanistan for 5 months now. As the mom was explaining how much her daughter, Courtney, missed her father, the young soldier began to tear up. When this temporarily single mum was done explaining her situation, all of the soldiers huddled together for a brief second. Then one of the other servicemen pulled out a military looking walkie-talkie. They started playing with the device and talking back and forth on it.
After about 10-15 seconds of this, the young soldier walked back over to Courtney, bent down and said this to her, "I spoke to your daddy and he told me to give this to you." He then hugged this little girl that he had just met and gave her a kiss on the cheek. He finished by saying "Your daddy told me to tell you that he loves you more than anything and he is coming home very soon."
The mum at this point was crying almost uncontrollably and as the young soldier stood to his feet he saluted Courtney and her mum.
I was standing no more than 6 feet away as this entire event unfolded. As the soldiers began to leave, heading towards their gate, people resumed their applause. As I stood there applauding and looked around, there were very few dry eyes, including my own. That young soldier in one last act of moment turned around and blew a kiss to Courtney with a tear rolling down his cheek.
We need to remember everyday all of our soldiers and their families and thank God for them and their sacrifices. At the end of the day, it's good to be an Australian.

RED FRIDAYS


Very soon, you will see a great many people wearing Red every Friday. The reason? Australian's who support our troops used to be called the "silent majority". We are no longer silent, and are voicing our love for Country and home in record breaking numbers. We are not organized, boisterous or over-bearing. We get no liberal media coverage on TV, to reflect our message or our opinions.

Many Australian's, like you, me and all our friends, simply want to recognize that the vast majority of Australiasupports our troops. Our idea of showing solidarity and support for our troops with dignity and respect starts this Friday and continues each and every Friday until the troops all come home, sending a deafening message that every Australian who supports our men and women afar will wear something red.

By word of mouth, press, TV -- let's make Australiaon every Friday a sea of red much like a homecoming football team. If every one of us who loves this country will share this with acquaintances, co-workers, friends, and family. It will not be long before Australiais covered in RED and it will let our troops know the once "silent" majority is on their side more than ever,

certainly more than the media lets on. The first thing a soldier says when asked "What can we do to make things better for you?" is..."We need your support and your prayers".

Let's get the word out and lead with class and dignity, by example; and wear something red every Friday.

[slipedisk]

Soldiers.........


Your alarm goes off, you hit the snooze and sleep for another 10 minutes.

He stays up for days on end.
__________________________
You take a warm shower to help you wake up.

He goes days or weeks without running water.
__________________________
You complain of a "headache", and call in sick.

*He gets shot at as others are hit, and keeps moving forward.
__________________________
You put on your anti war/don't support the troops shirt, and go meet up with your friends.

He still fights for your right to wear that shirt.
__________________________
You make sure you're cell phone is in your pocket.

He clutches the cross hanging on his chain next to his dog tags.
__________________________
You talk trash about your "buddies" that aren't with you.

He knows he may not see some of his buddies again.
__________________________
You walk down the beach, staring at all the pretty girls.

He walks the streets, searching for insurgents and terrorists.
__________________________
You complain about how hot it is.

He wears his heavy gear, not daring to take off his helmet to wipe his brow.
__________________________
You go out to lunch, and complain because the restaurant got your order wrong.

*He doesn't get to eat today.
__________________________
Your maid makes your bed and washes your clothes.

He wears the same things for weeks, but makes sure his weapons are clean.
__________________________
You go to the mall and get your hair redone.

He doesn't have time to brush his teeth today.
__________________________
You're angry because your class ran 5 minutes over.

He's told he will be held over an extra 2 months.
__________________________
You call your girlfriend and set a date for tonight.

He waits for the mail to see if there is a letter from home.
__________________________
You hug and kiss your girlfriend, like you do everyday.

He holds his letter close and smells his love's perfume.
__________________________
You roll your eyes as a baby cries.

He gets a letter with pictures of his new child, and wonders if they'll ever meet.
__________________________
You criticize your government, and say that war never solves anything.

He sees the innocent tortured and killed by their own people and remembers why he is fighting.
__________________________
You hear the jokes about the war, and make fun of men like him.

He hears the gunfire, bombs and screams of the wounded.
__________________________
You see only what the media wants you to see.

He sees the broken bodies lying around him.
__________________________
You are asked to go to the store by your parents. You don't.

He does exactly what he is told.
__________________________
You stay at home and watch TV.

*He takes whatever time he is given to call, write home, sleep, and eat.
__________________________
You crawl into your soft bed, with down pillows, and get comfortable.

He crawls under a tank for shade and a 5 minute nap, only to be woken by gunfire.
__________________________
You sit there and judge him, saying the world is probably a worse place because of men like him.

If only there were more men like him!

[Pierre]

Anyone who wore an ADF uniform in the early 1970s had to endure bias, stupidity and bigotry. To minimize the personal threat, measures had to be taken. We were pariah IN OUR OWN COUNTRY!!!!!

Thank God we have come to our senses.

Pete the galloping grocer