Puma 2.4 possible turbo failure - confirmation or other ideas

[MLD]

Righto, another 2.4 Puma engine wobbly.

I suspect i've got a fubar turbo, but before i drop $1600 on another one, i thought i'd feed my confirmation bias.

Symptoms:
- loud whining noise from engine bay under all throttle scenarios, noticeably louder under load
- noise increases with speed
- noise is minimal (almost gone) when coasting down hill in gear
- noise is minimal (almost gone) when coasting on flat ground, but a blip of the throttle will invoke whining noise. In this situation boost might increase 1 or 2 psi from a constant 6 to 8 psi in a low engine load situation
- noise is minimal with clutch disengaged and free revving to about 3k rpm, boost constant 6 to 8 psi free revving (done on flat ground while coasting)
- sharp incline, 2nd gear holding constant 3k rpm, the noise was noticable but not a loud whine
- best i can tell, loudness of whine and psi are not proportionate (suggesting its not a boost leak)
- no noticable rattle at turbo on start up
- no serpentine belt noises
- recently smoke on start up, but i had injector problems for ages so can't say its not still injector related
- oil level down on usual levels. for the past 150k kms the engine hardly used any oil. So this is a material change on past behaviour.
- i went over every hose, clamp, bolt etc from exhaust manifold to intake manifold for obvious boost leak.
- not noticeably down on power but being a heavy 130 with short gearing, its never been sporty

Getting a mechanic to look at it and do the work is a 'many weeks wait' and i don't have that luxury. I'll have to do the replacement myself even though i'd prefer to have the mechanic lose skin on his knuckles than me.

While not relevant to the diagnosis issue, it is a cheap chinese knock off turbo i fitted 15 months ago because i was and still am going to put an LS in it. I thought the conversion was imminent and the turbo would serve its short term purpose. For months i've heard a bearing noise, thinking it was in the gearbox. I'm now wondering what i thought was bearing was the turbo and its now a whine that i can't blame on the gearbox.

Affirmations or any other ideas.

[Robmacca]

Righto, another 2.4 Puma engine wobbly.

I suspect i've got a fubar turbo, but before i drop $1600 on another one, i thought i'd feed my confirmation bias.

Symptoms:
- loud whining noise from engine bay under all throttle scenarios, noticeably louder under load
- noise increases with speed
- noise is minimal (almost gone) when coasting down hill in gear
- noise is minimal (almost gone) when coasting on flat ground, but a blip of the throttle will invoke whining noise. In this situation boost might increase 1 or 2 psi from a constant 6 to 8 psi in a low engine load situation
- noise is minimal with clutch disengaged and free revving to about 3k rpm, boost constant 6 to 8 psi free revving (done on flat ground while coasting)
- sharp incline, 2nd gear holding constant 3k rpm, the noise was noticable but not a loud whine
- best i can tell, loudness of whine and psi are not proportionate (suggesting its not a boost leak)
- no noticable rattle at turbo on start up
- no serpentine belt noises
- recently smoke on start up, but i had injector problems for ages so can't say its not still injector related
- oil level down on usual levels. for the past 150k kms the engine hardly used any oil. So this is a material change on past behaviour.
- i went over every hose, clamp, bolt etc from exhaust manifold to intake manifold for obvious boost leak.
- not noticeably down on power but being a heavy 130 with short gearing, its never been sporty

Getting a mechanic to look at it and do the work is a 'many weeks wait' and i don't have that luxury. I'll have to do the replacement myself even though i'd prefer to have the mechanic lose skin on his knuckles than me.

While not relevant to the diagnosis issue, it is a cheap chinese knock off turbo i fitted 15 months ago because i was and still am going to put an LS in it. I thought the conversion was imminent and the turbo would serve its short term purpose. For months i've heard a bearing noise, thinking it was in the gearbox. I'm now wondering what i thought was bearing was the turbo and its now a whine that i can't blame on the gearbox.

Affirmations or any other ideas.

Interesting... and following people's replies..

I too have started to experience oil usage over the past 10k but as far as I can tell I don't have the turbo noise that you explained but do have oil going through the IC and into the Inlet Manifold (oil leaks from around the inlet manifold). I've been told that it is probably oil bypassing the Turbo (wear in the Turbo) but I don't know as the Turbo through all rev & load ranges sounds normal...

[MLD]

for those interested, the turbo to exhaust manifold gasket split. Mechanic that replaced turbo 15 months ago did not use the new gaskets that came with the turbo. Found the gasket kit in the box with the old turbo that i put on the shelf (god knows why i'd keep it). The Chinese knock off turbo was perfect. No play in cartridge and no obvious damage to blades. Unwillingly got a spare turbo. That was not the end of the problem. After fitting new turbo and gaskets, still got a exhaust side gas leak. Still squeals like a banshee under throttle input. I re-torqued the bolts after the test drive but didn't get a chance to re-test drive to see if the re-torque did the trick. Will get gaskets for the EGR as a precaution (easy to replace once you lift ECU out of the way), and failing that, will replace the exhaust manifold gasket. The later is alot of work including removal of the AC, so hoping to avoid that.

A few lessons learned.

1) 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone is the ducks nuts as a penetrating oil. Give each bolt a squeeze the night before and they all broke with little swearing. only one bolt needed the 1600nm impact driver for a little persuasion.

2) the bolt to the rear of the oil drain pipe soaked up 2 hrs to remove and 3 hours to replace. The drain pipe is twisted and does not line up with the drain on the turbo. Getting it lined up is a delicate dance of losening off all the bolts of the turbo, wedging the drain pipe flange with a chisel blade to get the alignment and crawling under the car to get a line of sight to the bolt hole with a long socket on a swivel (the engine mount fouls an extension bar and a wrench without an extension does not reach with the turbo casting in the way). Can't tell you how many times i hit my head on the side steps sitting up before crawling far enough from under the car to make a micro adjustment to the chisel. If i was to do it again, i would release that back drain bolt first while everything else is tight so it's got the best chance of unscrewing without side load on the bolt from the flange pulling sideways. In reverse, get that bolt started before the other bolts. The service manual says to do the oil feed and drain last in time, not my experience.

Land Rover ownership is a blessing and a curse.

[DazzaTD5]

*The exhaust manifold and a manifold to turbo leak (if leaking) generally are obvious with the black soot stain from where it is leaking.
*generally the manifolds are not prone to leaking except from the very back where it bolts to the egr cooler.
*from factory there is no gasket from the manifold to turbo, so its odd that with a gasket its leaking.
*I would run a file over the two faces to ensure they are flat. the metal gaskets if its not already are better.

I'm sure on here I have listed how to get to the drain bolts.
and I'm also sure its covered in one of my videos showing you everything thats removed to remove the manifold.

[MLD]

Thanks Dazza

I'll go searching for your video.

I'm using metal gaskets. A post on Defender2 that had problems with constant gasket leaks, turned out that the exhaust manifold was not flat. Mine didn't leak for the past 10 years and the metal gasket that was in there from the turbo change 15 months ago was rusted and split. I can't conclusively tell if the exhaust manifold is leaking. There is oil staining on the heads near enough to the exhaust manifold to be the potential for a false positive. I'll dowse the heads/exhaust manifold in brake cleaner and use that as a new benchmark. I bought another gasket kit which might have the EGR gasket included (looks to be one in the packet similar to the EGR shape). For completeness i went to the exhaust place today and bought a section of gasket sheet they use for their exhausts to fit to the EGR as the last resort. After that, it's the exhaust manifold gasket or a match.

190961