ABS Brakes from hell

[FronkWalker]

Hey All,

I am having a mare fixing my brakes, which will come as a surprise to no-one on here I suspect.
Here is a list of everything I have done, and am looking for a hand just getting the last step in. Feel like im so close, but just can't get it to go.



New Master Cylinder (booster) installed.
Worked through the falconworks bleed procedure.
Going well, no fluid in the last few steps (pressurise with pedal 2/3 action)
Removed pump, cleaned thoroughyl with brake cleaner and fuel to clean screen. Let dry and re-installed.
Ran through procedure from drool method, very good flow for all following steps.
When presurising in last step, getting scratchy sound, also pressuring the brake pedal turns pump on immediately.
Bled pump and accumulator numerous times, with results getting worse. pressure does not seem to build up and pump running longer than 45s with scratchy noises


Basically, I assume there is air in in, but can’t work out how to release it.
Any help would be amazing

[DoubleChevron]

Is it possible to remove the ABS pump and just run standard twin circuit brakes?

I have hydraulic cars here, rapidly cycling pumps, generally means your accumulator is dead. What sort of accumulator does it run? Is it a "sphere" type accumulator like a Citroens and hydraulic cars run ?

if its dead flat, replacement is the only option. I can regass spheres/accumulators that are just down on charge though.

seeya,
Shane L.

[V8Ian]

Do you have a Nanocom?

[Spel1]

Is it possible to remove the ABS pump and just run standard twin circuit brakes?

It's a big tedious job but is what I did when I got my SE a few years ago (Not that it will help with this problem sorry). It had been sitting in a barn for some years and the pump constantly cycled, sounded horrible and the brakes didn't work. Faced with the massive cost of a new pump and who knows whatever else, and knowing nothing about the ABS system, I installed the entire hydraulic system from a donor parts vehicle from the booster up to the calipers. The lines are all different so was the only way I could make it work without making new stuff. Now all works well and a lot simpler for me to maintain.

[FronkWalker]

It's a big tedious job but is what I did when I got my SE a few years ago (Not that it will help with this problem sorry). It had been sitting in a barn for some years and the pump constantly cycled, sounded horrible and the brakes didn't work. Faced with the massive cost of a new pump and who knows whatever else, and knowing nothing about the ABS system, I installed the entire hydraulic system from a donor parts vehicle from the booster up to the calipers. The lines are all different so was the only way I could make it work without making new stuff. Now all works well and a lot simpler for me to maintain.

Yeah this seems like my last resort option. But good to know its possible and people on here have done it. I'm really hoping I can just get it to work as is.

Cheers!

[TonyC]

On a technical note.
Is it legal to remove something like ABS or airbags?
In Victoria it's a roadworthy fail if they don't work.

Tony

[Mercguy]

It depends entirely on the ADR's on the compliance plate.
If the vehicle came standard with those specific safety features and the placard states it, then yes.
Otherwise, if there are parallel models with different options - i.e. one has abs and the other no, then it is possible to swap between, so long as the vehicle's ADR compliance does not change.

There is an argument for replacement or removal of early airbags if they are beyond their 10 year lifespan (certain manufacturers have different timeframes for scheduled replacements) but if the vehicle is not mandated to require an airbag or ABS in order to comply with the relevant ADR's on the compliance plate, then it is not a legal issue

What IS a legal issue is having a faulty safety system - i.e. brakes that do not work. That's a roadworthiness failure anyway, so if you are concerned about safety, make sure your vehicle is up to scratch.

I'd be more worried about structural rust in an old RRC to be honest.

Brakes are an easy thing to fix and properly maintain for RWC. Hidden rust is just that - not visible and so vehicles pass inspections and maybe some time later they fall to pieces due to rust issues.

and I'm not talking about hanging panels, I'm talking about Sills, pillars, structural body panels and the chassis. i.e. the things that help you survive a serious accident - be it on road or off.

The ABS system is not really that complicated, but parts are not cheap - and it matters not which manufacturer you choose.
It IS a safety system.
If it is mandated on your ADR compliance plate, you require it's fitment and operation to exist on the vehicle in order for it to be roadworthy.

But the truth is even more simple.
if it fails a brake test, it's not roadworthy.
if it passes the brake test, then they are not going to look any further for a RWC inspection.

[goingbush]

It depends entirely on the ADR's on the compliance plate.
<snip>

Not RRC but my 2013 Iveco Daily, had brakes from hell.

ive upgraded the entire brake system and electrically disabled the ABS but the hydraulics still run through it. , I've been meaning to remove the Bosch 5.3 ABS Module but kept incase of compliance issues, your post just spurred me to look up the Compliance number on RVCS and I see ABS was optional. Woo hoo, off it comes.

[workingonit]

[QUOTE=goingbush;3233472]Not RRC but my 2013 Iveco Daily, had brakes from hell.

ive upgraded the entire brake system and electrically disabled the ABS but the hydraulics still run through it. , I've been meaning to remove the Bosch 5.3 ABS Module but kept incase of compliance issues, your post just spurred me to look up the Compliance number on RVCS and I see ABS was optional. Woo hoo, off it comes.[/QUOTE

Years (decades) ago, LRover International or LR Monthly (can't remember which) had a short report from a reader. The owner in Britain had gone for an MOT inspection worried that the faulty ABS system might get the vehicle failed. The inspector said something to the effect that there were models of the same year and make with no ABS - the ABS in this case was an option and not essential for proper brake performance - that the ABS could be disconnected via the fuse - all valves would open, and vehicle breaking would remain otherwise unaffected. I was researching this because the ABS in my Discovery 1 was denying me power assisted braking when the vehicle was first turned on. Only after there was a bit of a 'bang & clunk' under the bonnet did assisted breaking return. I read one account of a person sailing through a red light because the ABS decided to make power assisted breaking unavailable. ABS is basically a 4 brake fiddle stick and and unless I'm wrong does not add any additional assisted braking pressure beyond what is already supplied by the vacuum unit.

A driving expert said if people are properly trained in the use of conventional assisted brakes then they are more effective that ABS enhanced systems ie shorter braking distances,

[goingbush]

[QUOTE=goingbush;3233472]Not RRC but my 2013 Iveco Daily, had brakes from hell.

ive upgraded the entire brake system and electrically disabled the ABS but the hydraulics still run through it. , I've been meaning to remove the Bosch 5.3 ABS Module but kept incase of compliance issues, your post just spurred me to look up the Compliance number on RVCS and I see ABS was optional. Woo hoo, off it comes.[/QUOTE

Years (decades) ago, LRover International or LR Monthly (can't remember which) had a short report from a reader. The owner in Britain had gone for an MOT inspection worried that the faulty ABS system might get the vehicle failed. The inspector said something to the effect that there were models of the same year and make with no ABS - the ABS in this case was an option and not essential for proper brake performance - that the ABS could be disconnected via the fuse - all valves would open, and vehicle breaking would remain otherwise unaffected. I was researching this because the ABS in my Discovery 1 was denying me power assisted braking when the vehicle was first turned on. Only after there was a bit of a 'bang & clunk' under the bonnet did assisted breaking return. I read one account of a person sailing through a red light because the ABS decided to make power assisted breaking unavailable. ABS is basically a 4 brake fiddle stick and and unless I'm wrong does not add any additional assisted braking pressure beyond what is already supplied by the vacuum unit.

A driving expert said if people are properly trained in the use of conventional assisted brakes then they are more effective that ABS enhanced systems ie shorter braking distances,

100% correct , The ABS unit does nothing to add braking assist, all it does is release brakes on the offending wheel if the sensor on that wheel detects a lack of traction , IE a skid.

[DoubleChevron]

Would a '92 model parts car be good to convert back to non-abs ?

[PLR]

ABS diagnostics (https://rangeroverclassic.net/brakes/abs-diagnostics.html)

[aussiebushman]

[QUOTE=A driving expert said if people are properly trained in the use of conventional assisted brakes then they are more effective that ABS enhanced systems ie shorter braking distances,

A driving expert said if people are properly trained in the use of conventional assisted brakes then they are more effective that ABS enhanced systems ie shorter braking distances,[/QUOTE]

I have had two Range Rovers with ABS and hated the ABS. I agree completely that if someone is taught to DRIVE - and I mean NOT just pass the driving test, then with some experience braking will be safer, more predictable and one hell of a lot easier and cheaper to maintain and/or repair.

Unfortunately, regulations will not allow ABS if fitted as original to be replaced with a conventional system. However, it done professionally by a certified engineer, it is possible to get around that and I strongly advise doing so.

[DoubleChevron]

There is no way any human will ever be able to brake as effectively as a modern ABS braking system. You guys must be thinking of comparisons done back in the stone age :). There is no way you can regulate each individual wheel many times a second releasing and grabbing the brakes to not only allow steering control (and improve brake stopping distances), but also aid in vehicle stability (stability control).

There is just no way. You guys are seriously living in a dream world :). Having said that, just to prove what a hypocrite I am. I don't own a car with ABS, my wifes poogoe 407 has had an ABS (therefore stability control) error showing for years that I have never fixed. This doesn't mean I believe for a second "I am better" than these systems.

My youngest daughter is soon to start driving my wifes old poogoe 407. Guess who has read the codes, guess who is about to order in an rear ABS sensor to make good and sure all those ABS and stability control systems will be 100% working. Yep, me.

Also ... If I owned the car this thread is about. Guess who would pull all the ABS crap straight off it and convert it to standard brakes. Yep.... MEeeeeeee ...... :banana::banana::banana: Certainly not because I think I'm better than ABS, more that I believe the car will be safer with good brakes than an overly complicated old dodgy ABS system.

I have a '92 non ABS parts car here, I'd move everything I had to over to the ABS car to convert it. I couldn't care less what cars compliance plate says.

seeya
Shane L.

[Mercguy]

Yes, I agree Shane, however from the legal standpoint one must remain informed, and this thread has clarified it for the OP ( I Hope).

It's like the non-vented versus vented versus dual circuit / single circuit fronts.

and no wonder so many run disco masters and defender callipers for vented rotors. - improved braking and better / simpler basic maintenance.

Still...

the point is (and shouldn't be lost) you need to have driving skills first to have effective car control and that comes with (ironically) experience... i.e. time behind the wheel.

Bit hard if you want to be a protective caring parent and at the same time teach kids the reality of driving.

Best thing I did as a kid was learn to drive a ****ter around paddocks with no brakes and steep hills....

yep. Imagine how good it felt to be able to drive on the road and have a brake pedal (that worked).

[FronkWalker]

Update to this original post.

I beleive I manages to bleed the brakes correctly, good good pedal (almost rock had). But have plenty of other issues.
Pump runs on every brake press, so replaced the accumulator with a tested unit from TRS in Adelaide. This has not fixed the issue.
The other issue is that when you brake, it pulls badly to the left.
I drove upto 60KM a couple of times and slammed on the brakes. Pulls to the left, brakes OK, but dont have a refference point.
The left front brake and wheel in general was way hotter than the rest of the wheels (70c vs around 50-60c).

I think I'm at the point of a non-abs conversion tbh.

[StuRR80]

Have an LR mechanic look at it before going to the expense of swapping it all over. It might be something simple that’s been overlooked, especially since you have it so close (by the sounds of things)