Trouble brewing with the local Council

[gromit]

We were without a local Council for some years after the Mayor accepted money from developers, then fled the Country before the case came to court. All the information is in the Public Domain if you're interested.
Former Casey mayor Sam Aziz received more than $250k after council land sale, IBAC told - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-17/former-casey-councillor-sam-aziz-tells-ibac-money-was-from-keno/12891660)

A new Council has been elected.

We have an extra rubbish bin because there are 6 or more people residing at the address. This is now being rescinded, if we want an extra bin we'll have to pay for it in future.

The latest announcement is that you need a permit to store or repair a recreational vehicle on private land !
If you have unregistered vehicles you need a permit for each one !

Apply for a Private Land Use Permit | City of Casey (https://www.casey.vic.gov.au/apply-private-land-use-permit)

Seems we were better off without a council as the new Council is certainly on a money grab !


Colin

[vnx205]

Does the following line mean that you need a $250 permit to pump up the tyres on your vehicle in your driveway? Surely maintaining correct tyre pressures is part of servicing a vehicle.




Dismantle, repair or service vehicles on private land - $250 (per vehicle)

[cjc_td5]

Does the following line mean that you need a $250 permit to pump up the tyres on your vehicle in your driveway? Surely maintaining correct tyre pressures is part of servicing a vehicle.


Dismantle, repair or service vehicles on private land - $250 (per vehicle)


That is crazy.
Given there is only one of you, so can only repair one vehicle at a time, do you only pay to pay for one vehicle? :-)
C

[AK83]

For me, this would be the beginning of moving to a nicer location.

[Old Farang]

Let me guess: they have a new female Mayor?

[gromit]

Does the following line mean that you need a $250 permit to pump up the tyres on your vehicle in your driveway? Surely maintaining correct tyre pressures is part of servicing a vehicle.


Dismantle, repair or service vehicles on private land - $250 (per vehicle)



Only if it's a 'recreational vehicle' but they don't give any real details and I'm not game to ask !


That is crazy.
Given there is only one of you, so can only repair one vehicle at a time, do you only pay to pay for one vehicle? :-)
C
No, it would appear you pay for every non-registered vehicle on your land.


I think I understand what they are trying to do.....stop people running a business from a private residence and remove stripped down cars, parked trucks and anything unsightly from front gardens.

All but one vehicle is garaged plus I'm on a 'battle-axe' block so you can't see the property from the street so I 'should' be OK but not happy about having to pay $300 and is that annual or one off permit ? Somehow I recon they'd make you apply annually. So potentially I'd be slugged $300 annually for doing what I've been doing for the last 20 odd years.
I'd write to the local paper but I don't want to make myself a target. Maybe someone from Interstate or at least a few suburbs away from Casey could pass the link to the AOMC ?


Colin

[AJM]

Define Recreational.

A Land Rover with a welder built into doesn’t sound recreational does it !!!

[Saitch]

Isn't a 'Recreation Vehicle' otherwise known as an 'RV'. This would lead me to think the reference is to any vehicle i.e. caravan, campervan, camper trailer, or Dormobile style wagon, which has what would be classed 'Accommodation' in it.

Hmmm? I wonder if a trailerable, half-cabin boat with bunks, is deemed guilty as charged?

[jerryd]

Time to live in your Dormobile [bigwhistle]

[V8Ian]

Time to live in your Dormobile [bigwhistle]
Maria cross with you, Jerry? [bigrolf] Silly question, when isn't she? [tonguewink]

[Graeme]

.. not happy about having to pay $300 and is that annual or one off permit ? Somehow I recon they'd make you apply annually. So potentially I'd be slugged $300 annually for doing what I've been doing for the last 20 odd years.
Permits apply for 90 days was my understanding.

[cjc_td5]

Only if it's a 'recreational vehicle' but they don't give any real details and I'm not game to ask !


No, it would appear you pay for every non-registered vehicle on your land.


I think I understand what they are trying to do.....stop people running a business from a private residence and remove stripped down cars, parked trucks and anything unsightly from front gardens.

All but one vehicle is garaged plus I'm on a 'battle-axe' block so you can't see the property from the street so I 'should' be OK but not happy about having to pay $300 and is that annual or one off permit ? Somehow I recon they'd make you apply annually. So potentially I'd be slugged $300 annually for doing what I've been doing for the last 20 odd years.
I'd write to the local paper but I don't want to make myself a target. Maybe someone from Interstate or at least a few suburbs away from Casey could pass the link to the AOMC ?


ColinI cannot think of any reasonable grounds to charge these fees? There are a myriad of existing planning laws that already govern operating a business from home or visual aspects to parked caravans or unregistered vehicles. And plenty of noise related regulations also. These new charges add nothing that isn't already covered.

So my camper trailer would probably be classed as a recreational vehicle, even though it lives in a shed and unfortunately has not been outside for a few years. So would my car and box trailers be captured by the new fees? Both are registered, but I wouldn't call them recreational vehicles....

[gromit]

Permits apply for 90 days was my understanding.

For unregistered vehicles & shipping containers it would appear to be 90 days.


I cannot think of any reasonable grounds to charge these fees? There are a myriad of existing planning laws that already govern operating a business from home or visual aspects to parked caravans or unregistered vehicles. And plenty of noise related regulations also. These new charges add nothing that isn't already covered.



The more I think about it....it's maybe more about motorhomes, caravans etc. but who knows what they mean by 'RV' ?

Interestingly we've had someone buy an adjacent house on a 1 acre block and are storing scaffolding, building materials etc. trucks coming & going all day long, trucks stored there, regularly burning off rubbish.
The land sloped so they've built it up covering access to a stormwater drain. They installed concrete slabs on our fenceline and raised their land by over a metre ! Noise from reverse beepers on trucks all day long.
There's a car under a cover tucked down the back, almost overhanging our property.
The Council are 'looking into it' as there is no permit, none applied for and unlikely to get approved anyway.
If they get kicked off I wonder if the land has to get put back to how it was ??

Anyway......
I'm keeping a low profile.
One of my boys has an unregistered car on the driveway and I have one Land Rover stored outside.


Colin

[3toes]

Somewhere in the legislations they will have had to define what RV means. Or perhaps it is the press building up a story by reporting an emotional story by glossing over the facts like what an RV actually means? Like that would ever happen

[gromit]

It appears that the local ratepayers association is making representation at the next Council meeting in February about this very issue.

Could be a good 'bun fight', I'd better attend :)


Colin

[V8Ian]

It appears that the local ratepayers association is making representation at the next Council meeting in February about this very issue.

Could be a good 'bun fight', I'd better attend :)


Colin
With your head down. [biggrin]

[Saitch]

With your head down. [biggrin]

Better still, how about a live streaming?

[gromit]

With your head down. [biggrin]

I may have a few things to say but maybe won't be using my real name.


Colin

[V8Ian]

I may have a few things to say but maybe won't be using my real name.


Colin
Do you want Saitch's real name? [wink11]

[Saitch]

I may have a few things to say but maybe won't be using my real name.


Colin

Col'n perhaps?

192186

[Tins]

Col'n perhaps?

192186
Guess it’s the right season for a Carpenter.

[3toes]

Not sure if we are allowed to post a link. This was a council meeting in the UK that made the news here a while ago. The next meeting went no better


https://youtu.be/l17UIwAFOyk'si=0Kg6mwshiZux_meeting

[gromit]

I found a copy of the Casey Community Law (provisional 2003) and a lot of the information on the website didn't tally with it.

The Council have now posted an update which, interestingly, is closer to the Casey Community Law document.

Over recent days there has been some inaccurate information published online regarding Council’s Private Land Use Permit.

To clarify and reassure our community, this permit is part of the Casey Community Local Law and designed to protect the health, peace and safety of our community.

This permit has been in place for several decades, and aligns with our Local Law.
The Private Land Use Permit is not a tool designed to restrict or limit residents' activities on their own property, such as working on their cars or motorbikes, nor does it prevent visiting family or friends from staying in a caravan. It is simply a means to manage nuisance behaviours that disrupt the wellbeing of the community. Additionally, it is important to note that the use of such permits is common across many local councils in Victoria, not unique to Casey.

The purpose of the Private Land Use Permit is to address and mitigate nuisance behaviour that causes distress or concerns to neighbours and the broader community.
This includes issues such as large trucks being parked on private property, creating noise at inappropriate hours or causing damage to local streets, or individuals living in caravans on private property for extended periods of time, leading to potential health or water waste concerns, or properties hoarding old cars, which can negatively affect the local amenity and appearance of the street.
Instances where a resident needs to apply for a permit include:



Using a recreational vehicle (e.g. go-kart or motorbike) on a private property

Storing a shipping container (up to 90 days)

Storing long heavy vehicles (e.g. large trucks)
Storing more than 2 unregistered vehicles
Using a temporary dwellings like a caravan for more than 14 days in any 60-day period.

Unfortunately, in recent days, our Customer Service Team has been subjected to threatening behaviour as a result of inaccurate information.
Our staff are here to assist and provide accurate information, and we request that all members of our community to approach them with respect and understanding.




The 'inaccurate information' they refer to was from their own website (which they've now conveniently partly corrected) !

If you want to conduct any of the following activities on private land, you will need a permit.



Storing or repairing a recreational vehicle

Storing a shipping container (up to 90 days)

Storing long heavy vehicles (If you intend to park more than 1 long heavy vehicle on private land, please consult our planning team (https://www.casey.vic.gov.au/planning-advice)).

Storing more than 2 unregistered vehicles (up to 90 days) - Was 'Any unregistered vehicle'
Storing a skip bin

Putting up temporary dwellings (no more than 14 days in any 60-day period)
Dismantle, repair or service vehicles on private land (non-commercial)



There's still a couple of area's of concern so it still might be worth attending the next Council meeting :)


Colin

[Tins]

Our staff are here to assist and provide accurate information, and we request that all members of our community to approach them with respect and understanding.



Hmm. While I agree in general terms with this sentiment, I believe that council staff need to be reminded that it works both ways. Had some dealings with your Council a few years back where the aggression came from the persons with the uniform ( not uncommon, in my experience ), and not me.

I'm going to have to explore the bylaws of YarraRanges, as I have an OKA in my driveway. I put it there as it is not allowed to be on the street, registered or not, as it is over 4.5 tonne. Even though it has a similar footprint to the average tradie's ute, it was the cause of some complaint by a faceless neighbour. At the time, Council said it would be ok on my driveway, but I'm now worried they will be looking at Casey and getting ideas.

[RANDLOVER]

Hmm. While I agree in general terms with this sentiment, I believe that council staff need to be reminded that it works both ways. Had some dealings with your Council a few years back where the aggression came from the persons with the uniform ( not uncommon, in my experience ), and not me.

I'm going to have to explore the bylaws of YarraRanges, as I have an OKA in my driveway. I put it there as it is not allowed to be on the street, registered or not, as it is over 4.5 tonne. Even though it has a similar footprint to the average tradie's ute, it was the cause of some complaint by a faceless neighbour. At the time, Council said it would be ok on my driveway, but I'm now worried they will be looking at Casey and getting ideas.

I also generally agree, but some people do need to be told. I'm not sure what a "Community Law" is but if it is anything like a "Covenant " we sign to buy in some estates in QLD it is not enforceable according to a public prosecutor friend of a freind son who was a policeman, when I enquired about building a fence in my front yard. I built the fence and haven't had any problems.

[V8Ian]

I bought land in a new estate with a brick and tile covenant, so built an expensive house such. Later, fibro and tin houses were constructed and we found out that the covenant was not enforceable.

[Tins]

I haven't had time to watch this completely, so I apologise if there's any poor language..


https://youtu.be/a1e_zVsbN4M'si=WFuk2_7wrLmVJ1pu

[V8Ian]

John, it's YOUR responsibility to make sure any link or YouTube you post, does not contravene forum rules. No caveat relieves you of that responsibility. Fortunately, this link is compliant.

[rangieman]

Only if it's a 'recreational vehicle' but they don't give any real details and I'm not game to ask !


No, it would appear you pay for every non-registered vehicle on your land.


I think I understand what they are trying to do.....stop people running a business from a private residence and remove stripped down cars, parked trucks and anything unsightly from front gardens.

All but one vehicle is garaged plus I'm on a 'battle-axe' block so you can't see the property from the street so I 'should' be OK but not happy about having to pay $300 and is that annual or one off permit ? Somehow I recon they'd make you apply annually. So potentially I'd be slugged $300 annually for doing what I've been doing for the last 20 odd years.
I'd write to the local paper but I don't want to make myself a target. Maybe someone from Interstate or at least a few suburbs away from Casey could pass the link to the AOMC ?


Colin
Colin my Neighbour was elected in the last election i will talk to her , I hope she doesn't dob me in unregistered car unregistered bike 2 unregistered trailers ,
Any way as usual care factor is zilch till and when the council want to knock on my door for some education .

[V8Ian]

This type of money grabbing from councils/governments is usually more about changing voter behaviour than raising funds.

[gromit]

Colin my Neighbour was elected in the last election i will talk to her , I hope she doesn't dob me in unregistered car unregistered bike 2 unregistered trailers ,
Any way as usual care factor is zilch till and when the council want to knock on my door for some education .

Thanks Chris,

It seems it was the incorrect information on their website that caused the problem.
The reply from the Council clarifies things (a bit) but the info on the website still doesn't match the information in their statement.

You can't see our place from the road if you remember, so anyone dobbing us in would have to be one of 3 or 4 neighbours. Most vehicles are in garages/sheds but one of my boys has an unregistered car on the driveway.

I still might attend the Council meeting in Feb.

Colin

[gromit]

They've now re-written the website about 5 times and it seems a bit more realistic now.
When do you need a private land use permit
The following activities on private land require a permit.



Use of a recreational vehicle, e.g. mini bike, motor scooter, go-kart, etc.
Storing a shipping container (up to 90 days) in a residential area

Storing long/heavy vehicles. For two or more long/heavy vehicles, contact our planning team (https://www.casey.vic.gov.au/planning-advice).

Storing more than two unregistered vehicles
Use of a temporary dwelling (caravan, camper trailer, tent, etc.) for more than 14 days in any 60 day period



They created the issue but still refer to 'misinformation & confusion' as if they weren't involved !

It’s important to clarify that our residents do not need a permit to do minor maintenance on their car on private property, for example an oil change or belt change.

You also don't need a permit to park a caravan on your property.

There has been misinformation and confusion about the role and purpose of the Private Land Use Permit. We have made amendments to our website to make information about this permit clearer for our community.
The Private Land Use Permit is part of the Casey Community Local Law which aims to support the peace, health, safety, and wellbeing of our community.

A permit is only required in circumstances where the activity or use is detrimental to the amenity of the nearby area.
No permits have been required or issued by Council in relation to servicing vehicles on private property.

The City of Casey investigates 10,000 complaints from the community each year relating to local laws matters, including hoarding, heavy vehicles, unsightly properties or recreational vehicles like motorbikes or quad bikes.
Permits are a key tool for councils, not just the City of Casey, to ensure activities that may have a detrimental impact on those living nearby are suitably managed.




Still considering going to the first Council meeting this year.


Colin

[3toes]

Based on my experience of working with government here in the UK communication can be very hit and miss. Where they are for whatever reason not up front or economical with the facts the Internet fuelled rumour mill takes over and becomes the facts. It then becomes difficult to get the facts out as whatever is said is dissected to such a level nothing makes sense and the rumours continue to be the facts

[gromit]

Based on my experience of working with government here in the UK communication can be very hit and miss. Where they are for whatever reason not up front or economical with the facts the Internet fuelled rumour mill takes over and becomes the facts. It then becomes difficult to get the facts out as whatever is said is dissected to such a level nothing makes sense and the rumours continue to be the facts

This was very much that the 'facts' they put on their website were incorrect.

Can't service an RV on your property without a permit should have been can't use an RV on your property without a permit.
Can't have an unregistered vehicle on your property without a permit should have been can't have more than two unregistered vehicles without a permit.
And so on.

This is why a lot of locals got upset, it even made the TV news apparently.

It's now taken them five attempts at getting the website correct.
This is a new council as the previous council was sacked in 2020, they're not making a good impression so far.......



Colin

[V8Ian]

And a YouTube channel that gets regular updates.

[gromit]

And a YouTube channel that gets regular updates.

Thanks Ian, I hadn't looked for City of Casey on YouTube.
It seems that their misinformation has generated a lot of discussions !

Next meeting is 18th Feb at 6pm, I'll have to pose a question in advance, just need to think carefully about the wording :)
Meetings are live streamed via their Facebook page.

Colin

[Tins]

Thanks Ian, I hadn't looked for City of Casey on YouTube.
It seems that their misinformation has generated a lot of discussions !

Next meeting is 18th Feb at 6pm, I'll have to pose a question in advance, just need to think carefully about the wording :)
Meetings are live streamed via their Facebook page.

Colin

There are a number of youtubers posting about it. Some aren't complimentary. Musk says that WE are the media now, and maybe he has a point. I'm tipping Casey know about this and are hoping this will just go away, but if they're like some other councils they may double down. This is what happens when people don't pay attention to local politics, and therefore just donkey vote. I'm guilty of that.

Can't link to the YT vids I have seen as I can't vouch for their suitability for this forum.

[gromit]

Seems that the dust has settled.

The Casey Residents & Ratepayers Association met with the Council last week.

The Council acknowledged past website inaccuracies but didn't make any form of apology.
If someone in Industry put up information on their company website that was incorrect and caused hundreds of customers to phone and complain they'd potentially lose their job, but if you're a Council employee........

The council stated that permits are only issued in response to complaints and that there is no proactive enforcement or surveillance.

Maybe I won't waste my time attending the next Council meeting but I might watch it online.

Colin

[350RRC]

...............

If someone in Industry put up information on their company website that was incorrect and caused hundreds of customers to phone and complain they'd potentially lose their job, but if you're a Council employee........

There is a solution known as 'diagonal promotion' which might involve another, different (lucky?) council or a different department in the same municipality.


......The council stated that permits are only issued in response to complaints and that there is no proactive enforcement or surveillance. ............. Colin

IME, in a municipality not far from here, an astute citizen knows it is far easier to seek (on a needs only basis) and be granted forgiveness than it is to seek permission. Really astute citizens are on first name terms with senior bureaucrats and provide emergency rations to them in local restaurants, usually owned by other astute citizens.

DL

[gromit]

There is a solution known as 'diagonal promotion' which might involve another, different (lucky?) council or a different department in the same municipality.



I worked in a big company in the UK where this was practiced, 'deadwood' was passed from Department to Department.
The best one was in the Rolling Mill, they did a lot of book rolling of precious metals. Chap put on one mill, ruined most work going through, moved to another mill, ruined jobs there and so on. A job came up as a supervisor in the department and he got it because he had experience on all the rolling mills in the shop !!!

Colin

[Tins]

And the wheels get greased and the wheels go round… Not our wheels, of course.

[3toes]

I work with a lot of businesses and too often as am walking out am thinking that the person who I have been dealing can only have their job because they have some very embarrassing photos of someone important. They usually have very stressed people working with/for them. In the worst cases they have built up a team who are also of the same caliber

[V8Ian]

https://youtu.be/bjjwOzpPS5U'si=E3Ix_z_a1IDn-uku

[Slunnie]

Thats an absolute shocker! I hope the owner of those cars has a good solid and successful legal response.

Mind you, it would also be a really good way to get rid of old car bodies, then just deny ownership.

[Tins]

Mind you, it would also be a really good way to get rid of old car bodies, then just deny ownership.
Hmmm. Could charge a small(ish) fee to “store” cars for others. And yes, you could have plausible deniability. [bigsmile]

[Tins]

Thats an absolute shocker! I hope the owner of those cars has a good solid and successful legal response.


I have my OKA in my front yard. If it was removed I would immediately report it as a theft to police. The cameras would pick up the details of the offending tow truck. Be interesting to see which of the multitude of statutes would take precedence.
Wait. What am I saying? I live in Victoria. I suppose I could take the wheels off and call it a tiny house.

[Tins]

Just saw a vid with David Limbrick, MLC. Doubt he has enough teeth, but it will be raised in Parliament, for what that's worth in Vic. There's more to this than meets the eye, Colin. I know a Sgt who works in Casey. Gunna ask him, once again FWIW.


https://youtu.be/yODEK-q62uI'si=vlzNBB_1b87KozOw

[Red90]

Sounds like trespassing and theft. Why did he bot call the police?

[gromit]

Nothing on the meeting agenda for Tuesday.
https://www.casey.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2025-02/Council_Meeting_-agenda_18_February%202025.pdf

I was talking to someone the other day who knew of a case years ago where someone had a number of Toyota Crown's on his property.
Local Council removed them and he took them to court & won, they had to pay out for all the vehicles taken.

If the vehicles aren't an eyesore or can't be seen from the road I don't understand why the council would remove them unless......the person is running a business. You can't run a business from a residential property.

We had someone buy a house on an acre next to us, fence off the house and use the rest as a builders yard. Trucks coming & going all day long, material stacked everywhere, burning off waste etc. but they hadn't applied for a change of use (and it probably wouldn't have been approved anyway).
Council got onto them and they are now moving out leaving lots of damage like covering stormwater drain access, dirt piled up against a neighbours Colourbond fence panels......

From the Casey website :-What the permit is for:The permit is in place to manage nuisance behaviour that disrupts the wellbeing of the community. This includes:


Large/long trucks parked on private property, creating noise at inappropriate hours or causing damage to nature strips.
Individuals living in caravans on private properties for extended periods of time, leading to potential health or water waste concerns.
Private properties hoarding old cars, which negatively affect the appearance of the street.


I'll check out the Council meeting online on Tuesday.

Colin

[3toes]

Probably not going to happen here.

Mate of mine does and has for many years vehicle restoration as a business in some large sheds on his property. Usually has a few vehicles awaiting restoration as well as parts stocks in sheds

Had a few acres and sheds are not close to any of the nearby houses. Neighbors closest to the sheds moved and new people moved in. New neighbors never said anything however council is now receiving complaints about overgrown land and infestation of both rats and mice. Abandoned wrecked cars on the site

Council calls up and comes round to inspect the property. Could find no sign of either rats or mice and did not consider the land overgrown. Did ask for the land close to the neighbors house to be slashed more often. Does keep some livestock on occasion in these paddocks

Mate considered all solved however more complaints came in to council. Another visit from council who discussed situation and possible solutions. Land my mate was on was still zoned rural. Land on 2 sides was now residential with houses. Which was where complaints were coming from

Council was concerned about mate moving away and closing the business. Only one employee but they understood the implications for the wider local business community if was not spending locally

Solution from council was to change zoning to a rural/business zoning (not sure correct terms here). The council actually suggested and assisted with the change in zoning. Once this was in place there could be no problems with neighbors complaining about use of rural land

[Tombie]

Sounds more like a HOA than an Aussie council.

[Tins]

Sure doesn't sound like my council, that's for sure.

However, most HOAs are like Bloody Corporates, and would gang up on the bloke who was there first.

[gromit]

https://youtu.be/bjjwOzpPS5U'si=E3Ix_z_a1IDn-uku

It turns out that the video wasn't what quite what it appeared......

An update on recent car removal from property in Hampton Park | City of Casey (https://www.casey.vic.gov.au/news/update-recent-car-removal-from-property-hampton-park)

Cars, shipping containers etc. were stored on a neighbours property without consent.


Colin

[V8Ian]

Can anything Casey Council says be believed?

[gromit]

Can anything Casey Council says be believed?

Can you believe anything you see on the internet ?

The fact that they removed vehicles would have followed multiple warnings and it seems there was a dispute where the vehicles etc. were not on the owners property. No vehicles were removed from the owners property.

Council meeting tonight, the fun starts at about 1hr 10mins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EEBjRl9A_Q

The meeting was adjourned twice then Police were called in to get the councillors out after the meeting.
They didn't really answer questions that were raised.


Colin