Defender 110 front diff pinion angle

[Lotz-A-Landies]

In the process of having new driveshafts made for my 6x6 project. What has me scratching my head is the front diff pinion flange angle.

Sitting on the ground with engine transmission installed, the rear transmission-diff flange angles are all parallel (vertical). When measuring the front the LT230 output shaft has the same angle as the rear assemblies, but the diff flange angle has a 17 degree difference.

I am assuming this shaft will need a Double Cardan joint but is 17 degree too great. (Do standard Defender front diffs have a non vertical flange?)

[JDNSW]

No, they don't, at least on the pre-Defender 110, and I think on all Defenders as well. What they have is the front and rear universals on the front prop shaft at different phases, from memory, about two splines on the sliding joint (the shafts are marked on both sides of the spline joint), which is considered to sufficiently reduce the vibration.

Worth noting that the RR Classic, Disco 1, with basically the same power train and suspension, do have a double Cardan joint at the TC end. And in my view, that would be the way I would go in your case.

[Old Farang]

Worth noting that the RR Classic, Disco 1, with basically the same power train and suspension, do have a double Cardan joint at the TC end.
Arh, I don't think so? I have previously owned both of them, although a while ago, I don't recall seeing those, not unless they have been raised on the suspensions.

[TonyC]

Neither of the D1s if played with have double cardon drive shafts.

I believe D2s have a DC joint at one end of the front shaft.

Tony

[shack]

The D2 is the only one I know of that uses a double cardan, the others are single cardan at both ends.

A pretty nice and quite popular upgrade for a defender is swapping over to the D2 one, it would likely also work on the above mentioned vehicles.

I think you gain a little bit more theoretical drive angle when needed and a smoother drive line as a cardan joint is not CV. A double cardan is also not a true CV but it nearly is.

I'd go the double.

The flange on the TC is different between single and double cardan and needs to be swapped if swapping drive shafts.

[Blknight.aus]

Defenders, D1 and so far as I know the rangie classics all have about the same pitch up on the front diff, To aid in dive line vibration reduction the UJ's are offset (from memory) one spline if you have the coarse spline slip joints (factory) or 3 splines if you have one of the aftermarket propshafts with the fine spline slip joint.

Some D1s and rangies also have a harmonic counter weight bolted to the diff where the defenders can have the tie rod catch plate installed.

Late defender top option packs like the td4 tombraiders and the extremes have the DC as well.

All perenties run a standard UJ, I have a customer who wanted the shaft remade with the wide angle flanges and UJ's so far the only real benefit I've seen to the mod is its so much easier to get onto the heads of the fixings.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Defenders, D1 and so far as I know the rangie classics all have about the same pitch up on the front diff, To aid in dive line vibration reduction the UJ's are offset (from memory) one spline if you have the coarse spline slip joints (factory) or 3 splines if you have one of the aftermarket propshafts with the fine spline slip joint.

Some D1s and rangies also have a harmonic counter weight bolted to the diff where the defenders can have the tie rod catch plate installed.

Late defender top option packs like the td4 tombraiders and the extremes have the DC as well.

All perenties run a standard UJ, I have a customer who wanted the shaft remade with the wide angle flanges and UJ's so far the only real benefit I've seen to the mod is its so much easier to get onto the heads of the fixings.This Defender has the tie rod catch plate you mention, but the 17 degree up angle on the pinion angle seems unusual to me.

I know that on my '85 classic when it when it went to 4.6 and ZF needed the shaft rotated 1 spline to solve a severe vibration at 80km.

Thought I'd use Hardy-Spicer in Moorebank to make shafts, but any other recommendations for a vendor?

[Blknight.aus]

This Defender has the tie rod catch plate you mention, but the 17 degree up angle on the pinion angle seems unusual to me.

I know that on my '85 classic when it when it went to 4.6 and ZF needed the shaft rotated 1 spline to solve a severe vibration at 80km.

Thought I'd use Hardy-Spicer in Moorebank to make shafts, but any other recommendations for a vendor?


not up your way, I use melbourne driveshafts exclusively when in melbourne.

I have been meaning to have a discussion with them about converting a front shaft to a pair of CV's on modified flanges to see how that goes.

As I recall all the fronts axles on coiled beam axles are tilted up pretty sure in a fireplace discussion about it it was to do with both the clearance for the tie rod (which used to be in front for the leafers) and reducing the running angle of the UJ's on the front end.

[350RRC]

..............

Sitting on the ground with engine transmission installed, the rear transmission-diff flange angles are all parallel (vertical). When measuring the front the LT230 output shaft has the same angle as the rear assemblies, but the diff flange angle has a 17 degree difference.

...............

If what you mean is that the snout of the diff is pointing too much towards the ground be aware that the fitting of caster correction bushes will cause similar.

DL

[Lotz-A-Landies]

If what you mean is that the snout of the diff is pointing too much towards the ground be aware that the fitting of caster correction bushes will cause similar.

DL
Not sure the caster would have been modified, the vehicle was an import, never registered purchased at auction from a UK Government entity.

What I mean with the pinion angle, the the pinion flange is pointing up towards the transmission output. The diff flange around 17 degrees from horizontal the transmission output horizontal.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

not up your way, I use melbourne driveshafts exclusively when in melbourne.

I have been meaning to have a discussion with them about converting a front shaft to a pair of CV's on modified flanges to see how that goes.

As I recall all the fronts axles on coiled beam axles are tilted up pretty sure in a fireplace discussion about it it was to do with both the clearance for the tie rod (which used to be in front for the leafers) and reducing the running angle of the UJ's on the front end.

Have been thinking about getting front shaft for Iain's 101 with CV's or possibly DC joints both ends

[Old Farang]

The question has not really been answered, concerning the angle of the flange. The following has a video, but it is a bit difficult to understand the voice over.

The company is Tom Woods in the US and several people have used their driveshafts sent from the US.

Choosing Between Single and Double Cardan Drive Shafts for Your Jeep o – Tom Wood's Custom Drive Shafts (https://4xshaft.com/blogs/general-tech-info-articles/choosing-between-single-and-double-cardan-drive-shafts-for-your-jeep-or-truck'srsltid=AfmBOorsB6aGXbIeMUluZxwIPcfNkj-9O__zL1qCuIjRV5PJos8uEVVV)

[MLD]

Have been thinking about getting front shaft for Iain's 101 with CV's or possibly DC joints both ends

i ran a double carden at both ends in a +4" lifted Puma. The pinion end DC alignment is straight thus does not take advantage of the DC. Having run both a dual DC and now a single DC, there is no material difference in vibration control. I never measured angles at full flex to see if the pinion DC was doing anything of value to mitigate extreme angles. I did find the pinion DC wearing out quicker than the TFC end, primarily being exposed to road grime, water crossing etc. Mechanics tend to forget or chose to not grease the centre bearing, thus they flog out prematurely. To get to the centre bearing, you need to drop the shaft and flex the DC to access the grease nipple. That assumes it has a grease nipple. TW is greasable, while GL (Bailey Morris) is not. They are not cheap to rebuild. the centre bearing is about $120 + the 2 UJs + labour.

D2 is a different flange (larger) to the defender. Traditionally people just swapped the D2 flange onto the Defer to use a OEM D2 shaft or aftermarket like Tom Woods or Gwyn Lewis (Bailey Morris). GL now sell a defender DC shaft that uses the defender flange. TW can be requested as either. If you want the Defer flange, you need to supply the specs of the pilot and bolt spacing.

Long and short, based on personal experience, i don't see the benefit of a dual DC primarily because the pinion DC alignment is the same as the shaft angle so you are just adding 2 extra bearings that 1 would suffice.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi MLD thanks for your informative response.

I'm discussing 2 different vehicles. The 101 has a relatively short front drive shaft considering the front Salisbury and height difference between pinion and TC so they vibrate with standard suspension spec, so maybe CV joints may be best over double DC

The other vehicle is my Defender/Reynolds Boughton 6x6. This vehicle is now running 4BD1-T and Isuzu MSA5S+2, making the front pinion-TC length 150mm longer than standard Defender and the TC-middle axle 150mm shorter. The middle shaft not an issue as the flanges are parallel, my concerns are mainly the 17 degree difference between pinion-TC.

I take it I should be looking for a D2 front DC joint. Do I also need swap the flange on my LT230 output?

[Slunnie]

Hi MLD thanks for your informative response.

I'm discussing 2 different vehicles. The 101 has a relatively short front drive shaft considering the front Salisbury and height difference between pinion and TC so they vibrate with standard suspension spec, so maybe CV joints may be best over double DC

The other vehicle is my Defender/Reynolds Boughton 6x6. This vehicle is now running 4BD1-T and Isuzu MSA5S+2, making the front pinion-TC length 150mm longer than standard Defender and the TC-middle axle 150mm shorter. The middle shaft not an issue as the flanges are parallel, my concerns are mainly the 17 degree difference between pinion-TC.

I take it I should be looking for a D2 front DC joint. Do I also need swap the flange on my LT230 output?

It would be a custom job by the sounds of it, especially if the shaft is 150mm longer than a D2 shaft.

I probably wouldn't run a D2 spec shaft with 1300 uni's, I'd run it with 1310 unis with that motor, especially in the DC joint which I don't think are as strong or durable as a same sized plain uni joint.

I have 1310 DC with standard Landrover bolt pattern(for rear D2 applications) and 1310 DC for D2 front flange fitment from Tom Woods - so you can run either with TW Shafts. I think the Disco2 front flange I think is a bigger and probably better pattern but given that it isn't really a failure point then it probably doesn't matter what you run - but I also think the D2 front flange availability for a DC is far better in case you need to replace one.

I've been running the Tom Woods shafts for years and years and years, I cant speak more highly of Tom or his products.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Is there a local vendor for Tom Woods or do I go to US?

[MLD]

I’ll add a third thought to the mix. LT230 front (and rear) spline (28) is the same as Ford 9” pinion. Opens up options to use a UJ yoke. A 1350 uj has a significantly wider operating angle to the 1310/30 series. And stronger.

yes, if you use D2 spec shaft, you need a D2 flange.

TW is USA, GL is UK. Hardy Spicer are local but are 30% more for a one off shaft than importing a shaft.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I’ll add a third thought to the mix. LT230 front (and rear) spline (28) is the same as Ford 9” pinion. Opens up options to use a UJ yoke. A 1350 uj has a significantly wider operating angle to the 1310/30 series. And stronger.

yes, if you use D2 spec shaft, you need a D2 flange.

TW is USA, GL is UK. Hardy Spicer are local but are 30% more for a one off shaft than importing a shaft. LT230 rear wouldn't that impact the park brake drum?

[MLD]

LT230 rear wouldn't that impact the park brake drum?

Yes,. You wouldn't use a yoke on the rear. I included the rear in brackets as an observation not a suggestion it was a good idea. Im pretty sure there are off the shelf spicer flanges that are LR pilot spec with LR spaced holes that suit 1350 UJs. I know some people that had upgraded their rear shaft to 1350 UJs. Would take some research perusing the spicer catalogue. Failing that, you can buy blank flanges with no holes drilled and the builder of the shaft drill the flange to suit the drum brake bolt spacing.

I only raised the UJ yoke idea as an alternative to the LR stuff, in particular using 1350 ujs with a wider operating angle to avoid the cost and maintenance of a DC shaft.

[Slunnie]

Is there a local vendor for Tom Woods or do I go to US?

Jeep Konnection, but just go direct to Tom for Land Rover and custom. He is great to deal with and this way he will probably have even a custom shaft to your door in about 5 working days from confirmation of the order.

He can do 1310, 1330, 1350 or whatever size you want. 1310 is a direct fitment for the D2 flange and also the LandRover standard flange. If it needs an adaptor flange, I've had a few of these from Tom and they test without runout, so his adaptors at least don't induce vibration. However... Tom will tell you that if there is an inherent vibration in the setup, then a bigger uni joint will amplify those vibrations - so a bigger uni joint isn't always better.

[TonyC]

Hj Diana,
Given you have a longer than standard front prop shaft, so the angles are better, and there are hundreds of thousands of RR , D1 and Defenders running around without a problem, what are you trying to solve?

Is it running big lift? Big tyres? Some sort of extreme rock crawler?

From all your posts, I wouldn't have thought that was your thing!

Or are you just looking for a better mousetrap?

Tony

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Tony

Not looking for a rock crawler but it is (hopefully engineer dependent) going onto air suspension so, if I have to get all 3 shafts made, I want to do it correctly.

The front diff up pinion angle seemed unusual to me as I'm used to series that have parallel flanges everywhere and I wanted to check if the 17 degrees is a problem. But going by some replies it may be standard (have just been offered a DC shaft).

As an aside does anyone have a Defender extreme? I wonder if they could send me an image of the tyre placard? Just more evidence for the engineer.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

another Q. Which Disco had the rubber donut and where? Just one of the shafts I've acquired during the build.

Not using the donut, but the cardan and shaft may be useful for modifying.

[TonyC]

another Q. Which Disco had the rubber donut and where? Just one of the shafts I've acquired during the build.

Not using the donut, but the cardan and shaft may be useful for modifying.

Both D1 and 2, diff end of the rear shaft.

I don't know either way for the later RRC

Tony

[Blknight.aus]

Took a 6x6 into melbourne driveshafts and the local hardies,

Both advise the same, dont run CV's for the propshafts, they will be at angle all the time, rotating at higher than their normal speed and will heat up, cooking the grease and causing premature failure of the CV.

According to the engineering dude who was on the call while I was at melbourne driveshafts, yes the CV's are stronger at straighter angles and lower speed but the amount of movement between the balls, race and outer shell at the angles they run on a 6x6 Ujs and DC joints are the way to go providing they are correctly greased. The only position worth considering a CV for is the one for the rear output on the back of the gearbox.

yes converting the rear carrier bearing to a greasable one is a good idea... So next service time.....

[shack]

Took a 6x6 into melbourne driveshafts and the local hardies,

Both advise the same, dont run CV's for the propshafts,

When you say CV's, do you mean CV or double cardan? I'm thinking you meant the double cardan?

As regards strength I have no idea, but even if they are weaker, there are obvious reasons that many vehicles have them, it might be a trade off I guess... Like everything in life!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Both D1 and 2, diff end of the rear shaft.

I don't know either way for the later RRC

Tony

Neither my 2 door or 4 door MY85 RRc had donuts

[Blknight.aus]

When you say CV's, do you mean CV or double cardan? I'm thinking you meant the double cardan?

As regards strength I have no idea, but even if they are weaker, there are obvious reasons that many vehicles have them, it might be a trade off I guess... Like everything in life!

No, I mean a Constant Velocity joint, not a Double carden, those are just a glorified pair of UJS with a spigot alignment bearing assembly.

[shack]

No, I mean a Constant Velocity joint, not a Double carden, those are just a glorified pair of UJS with a spigot alignment bearing assembly.Yeah ok, what vehicles use a CV there?

Not really familiar with anything else much, maybe patrols and LandCruisers..a bit.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

[Blknight.aus]

Yeah ok, what vehicles use a CV there?

Not really familiar with anything else much, maybe patrols and LandCruisers..a bit.

Or am I misunderstanding something?

some suzukis, some aux drives on some plant gear, some toyotas and a couple of others, they generally have much straighter driveline runs where that joints involved.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Today I picked up the new shafts from Hardy-Spicer. Despite the suggested cost, I decided to go with H-S mainly because I could take in the non-standard flanges and avoid errors possible from measurement errors.

One hiccough was that the supplied DC jointed D2 shaft was lengthened before they identified a cracked cap on one of the joints in the DC. Instead of replacing the joint they made a complete shaft with greaseable joints. Probably a better outcome.

The tube diameter on all shafts, (including the hi-articulation inter axle shaft,) are larger than standard Rover shafts so also an improvement.

One unexpected issue, I purchased a new D2 front output flange for the DC joint which came as a kit with flange, seal and flange bolts to connect the shaft. When fitting the shaft there was insufficient penetration of the bolts to contact the nylon in the locknuts. Corrected with longer bolts.

Happy that I now have shafts in place.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Some pics

Rolling chassis/dual cab on hoist
192988

Front DC joint shaft
192989

Rear shaft to middle axle
192990

Inter axle shaft
192986