Td5 fuel filter.

[V8Ian]

Anyone know which way the fuel travels through the filter, centre to outer or vise-versa?

[Slunnie]

I'm guessing from inside to outside based on this.

192884

[V8Ian]

Thanks Simon, I used (flawed?) logic and decided outer to inner, reason being if the filter becomes clogged, it will collapse and flow will stop. From centre to outer, there is a possibility the filter could burst, allowing contaminants to pass.
My late D2a seems to be slightly different to your diagram. I have a hose from the FPR to the top of the cooler, then to the back of the car.

[Slunnie]

Thanks Simon, I used (flawed?) logic and decided outer to inner, reason being if the filter becomes clogged, it will collapse and flow will stop. From centre to outer, there is a possibility the filter could burst, allowing contaminants to pass.
My late D2a seems to be slightly different to your diagram. I have a hose from the FPR to the top of the cooler, then to the back of the car.

Oh I just guessed it was in to out because the in lines looked like they went to the centre of the carrier and the out lines looked like they were from the edge of the carrier.

[V8Ian]

The plumbing seems strangely complex, to me, two laps of the car before it's used. [bighmmm]

[Tins]

They wanted to use up some of the energy before combustion. Worried that the car would be too powerful.

[V8Ian]

Fuel filter installed, now it's leaking fuel from one or both of the hoses/connections on the front of the filter. Are the hoses a unique or generic size and are they a flexible hose or specially shaped?

192886

[V8Ian]

What are the connections? Threaded or push on?

[V8Ian]

192893

Lines and connections arrowed.

[V8Ian]

Fuel filter installed, now it's leaking fuel from one or both of the hoses/connections on the front of the filter. Are the hoses a unique or generic size and are they a flexible hose or specially shaped?

192886

Anyone know?

[AK83]

When you say "at the front of the filter" do you mean at the actual filter(behind driver rear wheel)? The filter screws on to a filter head. Filter head has 4 connections(thus 4 hard lines coming to/from it). Do you have a leak at the filter head?
better to take photo.

What 'usually' happens is that when you remove the filter to replace it, there is a rubber o-ring that doesn't always come off with the old filter, but there is a rubber o-ring on the new filter that when you fit it, you inadvertently now have 2x rubber o-rings, and it can leak from there. If this is not your issue, then they can leak from the line fittings in one of two ways.
The head has 4x screw in ports where brass fittings attach. One leak possibility is that the filter head has a crack at one of those threaded ports. The lines themselves have quick fit(or push fit) type connections that that push into the brass fittings coming out of the filter head. The push fittings have two tabs(square shaped) that need to be squeezed for the quick connect to release ... kind of like the trans cooler lines at the trans cooler. When new, you can use your fingers quite easily to squeeze the release blocks, but when a bit aged, you need a tool of some kind. 'pliers' specially designed to make it easier to squeeze the quick connects exist(and relatively cheap), but if you have patience and tools to make your own this is also an option.
You need to clean up this area so you can see if there is a leak at the threads of the brass fitting(can be bought if needed) or at the quick connection fitting. The brass port is generally not a problem, the filter head can crack or the o-rings inside the quick connections can get leaky.

But if you mean that the leak is way up front near the fuel cooler or fuel block(or fuel pressure regulator), then again all fule lines are quick connects, basically same connectors all round. They can be had aftermarket if the quick connect have leaky o-rings.

[AK83]

Bit of apology, I didn't see that one of you pics can be read more easily. I think you have one of the pics 'arrowed'. If this is where the leak is, then again, clean up and take photo of it leaking.
Like I said, if it turns out to be the quick connect, you can undo the brass port off the filter head and size up the exact size quick connect.
I replace some and added some to my TD5, and just got a whole bunch of ebay for reasonable money. IIRC(and not 100% sure of this) .. the size is something like 7.89mm or roughly that.

Ebay example (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/235422528323'mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=39smey9ls4g&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=SNCI--WaTYG&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY).

You can get them from some car parts places. VPW has some (https://www.vpw.com.au/parts/PFEFLQR080) for not a huge price.

The strange 7.89mm size is because technically they are 5/16"(i.e. 7.89mm!)
If you have a heat gun(180° deflector is handy too) you heat up the hard line and remove old, and replace with new. it's not easy, but not impossible.

But you need to be sure it's not the filter head thats got a micro-fracture at the threaded port. Old one on TD5 had this, and I removed the brass fitting, used thread seal and got it sealed up for a bit while waiting for a filter head to come up to replace it.

[V8Ian]

Thanks Arthur, the leak seems to be where the line joins to the quick connect fitting.

[V8Ian]

Educated guess, it the low pressure return line, outboard front of the filter housing, that's a short line back to the pump, that's been disturbed when changing the pump.
I'll order a handful of the fittings.

[Bohica]

The plumbing seems strangely complex, to me, two laps of the car before it's used. [bighmmm]

Not really, The low pressure feed goes into the filter, gets filtered and then returns to feed the high pressure pump. The high pressure feed goes to the injectors, the unused fuel returns via the fuel pressure regulator to the top of the fuel filter housing where it then goes in the air bleed return line to the fuel tank. I am guessing that there is a provision for air in the filter assembly to return to the tank and the line from the FPR makes use of that.

[V8Ian]

The quick connect fittings finally arrived, they feel cheap and flimsy.

193057

These fittings do not resemble what's in the car. The ones on the car appear to have a knurled collar, are they supposed to unscrew? Where the fuel line enters the fitting, there is an O ring, this is where the leak is. Can the O ring be replaced? Is the fitting on the car Land Rover/ D2 specific and available?

[AK83]

I think those types still fit the button press style, which is what should be on the D2. I don't know if they changed the D2 vs the D2a in any way .. can't think why they would tho.
The connector type is the one I linked too on Ebay about 4 posts prior. Thats what they should look like. if you view that, the white square is a release button. one on each opposite side. And the tool to help remove the recalcitrant connectors looks like needle nose pliers with the tips curled into each other, like pincers.

The style you have there is the fitting on the top of the fuel tank for pump body.

As the connectors age, they get harder to press the buttons to release the quick connect.
A bit of WD/CRC/whatever can help, but when new they are easily pressed by fingers to remove them.

The type you have, still get hard to remove with age, but I found much easier than the button type that should be at the fuel filter and up at the FPR. There is one collar type fitting up at the FPR too(like the auto trans cooler type collar fitting).

And yes, o-ring inside the quick connector, but hard to remove and refit(in my experience). I haven't seen o-rigns for sale for them tho, I tried to use a regular small o-ring, but stuffed the connector trying to get the old one out.

[V8Ian]

Ok, had another squiz, armed with your information, Arthur.
I have the wrong fittings, I need a 90⁰ elbow. A closer look and decent torch revealed the buttons that need squeezing. They look like the same fittings that Incisor and I struggled with on the L322. We couldn't buy the right tool and I forget how wa eventually got them undone, but I'm pretty sure it involved some words that wouldn't be used in polite company.
The L322 had better access than the Disco.

Before any other smart arse says it, it was a good only the impolite Inc and myself were present. [tonguewink]

[V8Ian]

Ordered the last two 90⁰s in stock, from some Victorian show. They're the same style as original.

[AK83]

....They look like the same fittings that Incisor and I struggled with on the L322. We couldn't buy the right tool and I forget how wa eventually got them undone, but I'm pretty sure it involved some words that wouldn't be used in polite company.
The L322 had better access than the Disco.

.....

Pair of pliers or vice grips and a small something between the tool and the buttons.
First time I came across it, I obviously didnt' have tool. I used a pair of pliers and taped a small nut to the ends of them(on the inside). Still didnt' have enough hand power to squeeze them, and I think the pliers were crap anyhow, but also used vise grips over the pliers with two small nuts taped to it.
Back then I used to live within 1 minute of two car parts places, and I think I found the correct plier tool at Bursons.

Obviously you have removed the wheel for better access too [bigwhistle]

[V8Ian]

Has anyone replaced the fuel line between the cooler and filter? Is it straight forward or does it take a circuitous or difficult route?

[Blknight.aus]

the route is pretty straight forwards but it takes some careful threading. cap and tape the ends then tape a pull through from the old line to the new line thats long enough to let you get the complete old line out before you use it to apply guidance effort to the new line.

watch the support clips.

[johnp38]

Has anyone replaced the fuel line between the cooler and filter? Is it straight forward or does it take a circuitous or difficult route?

That return line, including the shorty from fuel pressure regulator housing to fuel cooler, are only at the same psi as the low pressure part of the fuel pump, from 1 to 2 bar.

You can use 'normal' efi rated fuel line and efi rated little hose clamps to make up the return line instead of the stiffer nylon line. Just clamp directly to your quick connect fittings.

If you're using a donor fuel line a looksee underneath b4 you start and all is pretty straightforward.

[V8Ian]

Further investigation reveals that line is not a problem, thank goodness. It's hard enough putting a new barb in the fuel pump end of the line.

[AK83]

Further investigation reveals that line is not a problem, thank goodness. It's hard enough putting a new barb in the fuel pump end of the line.

Yeah, those nylon lines are a pain. Did you use either a heat gun or boiling water container. Problem with water is you then get water in the line, so need to go through the rigamarole of blowing through from the other end.

heat gun with attachment that curls back by 180° on itself makes it super easy. Also good for heatshrink and nylon irrigation fittings too! [biggrin]

[johnp38]

Yeah, those nylon lines are a pain. Did you use either a heat gun or boiling water container. Problem with water is you then get water in the line, so need to go through the rigamarole of blowing through from the other end.

heat gun with attachment that curls back by 180° on itself makes it super easy. Also good for heatshrink and nylon irrigation fittings too! [biggrin]

They go on cold using a silicon gun as the 'pusher', I used to clamp the nylon line with the plumbers gadget you use to put flares in the copper pipes with just enough length protruding to go over the barbs of the quick connector.

But I went and bought the kit with gun and fittings a few years ago as it's got the attachments for right angle and 45 degree connectors.

[admiralranga]

They're push on connections to a barb that threads on, those pics are super low res (admittedly that might be my issue). They're formed plastic line, from memory they're not unreasonable for the short ones. the long ones to the engine are $$$. If you wanted to be tight you can get the connectors and make them up with flexible hose.

[V8Ian]

Still chasing this issue, the car hasn't run since February.

Recap:
I've been chasing a lack of power issue for a long time.
Replaced MAF, MAP, FPR.
Ensured wastegate is free.
Replaced I/C hoses.

To do list further to the problem.
Cat delete.

Whilst trying to work through the list with a broken Nanocom, the car lost power on a steep up grade. It ground to a stop, investigation revealed the fuel filter to cooler line had blown off at the cooler end. The hose was replaced with a clamp. Attempting to bleed the system, the pump died.
New pump and filter fitted and further attempts at bleeding found a new fuel leak at the other end of the previously leaking line.
All leaks fixed and I'm still struggling to bleed the fuel, I think.
I have run through the five pump method dozens of times. I have left the ignition on for half an hour, a few times. I have tried a sniff of ether, I have tried blowing warm air into the air intake and a combination of the last two.
The car steadfastly refuses to fire.
It would be a remarkable coincidence to have another fault that is stopping the car starting, all i can think of is CPS.
I have been reliably advised that there is a mesh filter in the cooler, worth checking. Any further, precise info appreciated.

[RANDLOVER]

CPS?

[Discofender]

CPS, crank position sensor..... if when turning the vehicle over with starter the rev counter moves then CPS should be fine i.e. creating a signal....worth checking the wiring to the sensor as they can break...

Mesh filter is behind the FPR. Are you getting any smoke when turning it over?

Good luck.

[V8Ian]

The car has never given a puff of smoke, as can pedro attest.
I tried starting it early in the morning, the other day, heaps of smoke (white).

[Discofender]

After replacing a leaking/cracked fuel filter block on a mates 2001 D2, we couldn't get it to bleed/fire. After flattening 2 batteries while jumping from my D2, I was worried we'd kill the starter. A tow start at resonable pace down the grass air strip he lived near finally got it started.

Couldn't work out what the issue was, new filter block, air bleed valve, filter, lines all cleared and checked for leaks (when not realising it was block that had the leak). Also had the FPR out and checked the mesh filter.... fuel pump had been changed a year earlier but I didn't have a pressure gauge then.

Had us stumped, we'd run the purge cycle probably 10 times..... I even pulled a couple of glow plugs to check they worked...

Lots of white smoke will towing and turning the engine over, some fuel was getting through....


Since then I've replaced many fuel filters, an air bleed valve and a couple of FPRs..... never had an issue like that vehicle had.... all have purged with the normal cycle and fired up......

Hope this helps.

Cheers Discofender

[V8Ian]

Mine has never failed to purge previously, when the system has been disturbed, usually only needing the pump to run for a couple of times without the five pump protocol.

[V8Ian]

No movement from the tacho, does that definitely mean the CPS has gone bush?

[AK83]

check wiring first.
Unusual for it to just let go especially just after you fixed the FPR(same area) ... so, could be a pulled wire from plug or something really simple.

But yes, no tacho on crank = no CPS signal.

[V8Ian]

Thanks Arthur.

[Tins]

Agree with Arthur, mine did that and I found the wiring to be quite brittle and fractured at the connector at the bell housing. The CPS is pretty reliable, but just in case some Jag ones fit.
If it is the wiring and you choose to replace it get shielded wire because the proximity of the starter interrupts the Hall effect of the CPS and makes the car slow to start.

[AK83]

From what I've seen, CPS isn't overly expensive(compared to some other parts!) ... so if found to be not working, it's not going to break the bank.

[V8Ian]

The prices seem to vary wildly, depending on where and what quality you're prepared to settle on.
Temu et al start at $24 with free delivery, genuine was over $400 + ex-UK.
I settled on a name brand (Delphi) for under a hundred in the letterbox, from Karcraft, who were recommended by Mario.

[V8Ian]

I actually think it's probably the wiring, as the oil idiot light recently stopped working, but as I'm going to use the services of a mobile mechanic, I want all bases covered. A spare CPS can't be a bad thing, traveling remote.

[Tins]

I would definitely avoid the first option.

Reason I mentioned the Jag one is because it was all I could get from a disco and jag wrecker on a Sunday. I had to play games with the plug but it got the car going. The original one was bolted inside the bell housing [bigsad]

[Tins]

Part number for the plug is YPC10070. Pretty common plug as it happens.

[V8Ian]

Not good news update. CPS replaced, wiring in good nick.
I have no reading on the tacho, but a scan tool is detecting 350rpm cranking. The injectors are opening.
In the past couple of months, while the car has been sitting, it has developed a couple of coolant leaks, one from the bottom hose, the other from an indeterminate location half way up the lhs of the engine.
My thoughts are, timing jumped a tooth or head gasket (optimistically hoping for nothing worse), although I feel the latter would not prevent starting. It sounds no different when cranking, as to prior to the breakdown.
Questions:
How to do a compression test, 4x glow plugs, or 5x injectors?
Is it possible, or reasonable to consider, a jumped tooth?

The engine won't even fire with ether sprayed directly into the inlet manifold.

[Discofender]

In your 'chasing a lack of power' for a while before the blown fuel line have you replaced the injector washers and seals.... before going to the trouble of compression test I'd replace the washers and seals. I do mine as a service item.

The washers can get scored and the cylinder compression could leak up the sides of the injector to the fuel rails, approx 20 bar of compreesion stroke could easily overcome the 4bar from the FPR. May have even been why the fuel cooler pipe let go.....

It would probably need to be very bad scoring and in the majority of cylinders to prevent starting... your getting some white smoke on turnover so some fuel is making through.

While in there check, replace the harness (should be service item) and check timing marks.... however with a chain I doubt its slipped a cog, unless there's a catastrophic failure in there..... then you problems are only just starting..... excuse the pun.

Again good luck.


Discofender193463

[discorevy]

Not good news update. CPS replaced, wiring in good nick.
I have no reading on the tacho, but a scan tool is detecting 350rpm cranking. The injectors are opening.
In the past couple of months, while the car has been sitting, it has developed a couple of coolant leaks, one from the bottom hose, the other from an indeterminate location half way up the lhs of the engine.
My thoughts are, timing jumped a tooth or head gasket (optimistically hoping for nothing worse), although I feel the latter would not prevent starting. It sounds no different when cranking, as to prior to the breakdown.
Questions:
How to do a compression test, 4x glow plugs, or 5x injectors?
Is it possible, or reasonable to consider, a jumped tooth?

The engine won't even fire with ether sprayed directly into the inlet manifold.


Yes, the tacho isn't a reliable indicator of a working CPS, but as long as the scan tool shows it.

You say the injectors are opening, have you done a solenoid click test with the scan tool?

Coolant leak on LHS of engine, look at water pump, bracket to block O ring, oil cooler outlet hose, or screw in core plug on the head between exhaust ports 3 and 4.

Seeing that fuel lines have been played with, check the main inlet from tank comes into the top fitting on the FPR.

If that checks out, then off with the cam cover and check cam timing, if that's good then replace injector washers as mentioned, making sure whoever does the job is clean and thorough.

You can always put it on the back of a load and drop it off here on your next job to W.A. if all else fails.

[V8Ian]

From the sparkie:
Plugged diagnostic into vehicle
Confirmed there is crank signal present on computer
Actuated injectors, all clicking
Black smoke from exhaust, vehicle is injecting fuel
No coolant in system, two leaks
Unable to start vehicle by spraying starter fluid directly into intake manifold
Relative compression test performed, wildly different values for all cylinders with consistent cranking speed
Suggested compression test as head gasket or timing may be preventing start.

[discorevy]

From the sparkie:
Plugged diagnostic into vehicle
Confirmed there is crank signal present on computer
Actuated injectors, all clicking
Black smoke from exhaust, vehicle is injecting fuel
No coolant in system, two leaks
Unable to start vehicle by spraying starter fluid directly into intake manifold
Relative compression test performed, wildly different values for all cylinders with consistent cranking speed
Suggested compression test as head gasket or timing may be preventing start.

Wildly different values on the "relative comp test" could also indicate a non shielded (from the starter motor) CPS circuit, or an aftermarket or Ill fitted CPS.

An experienced ear would be able to pick if there are very large discrepancies in compression from cranking.

[V8Ian]

I'm going to take a punt on injector washers, I think.
Is it worth changing the injector harness? There are no indications of failure and no oil at the computer end of the plug.
I was also thinking of cleaning the head side of where the copper washer sits, with Scotchbrite, glued to an appropriately sized dowel. Smart or stupid?
The tappet cover gasket is leaking still/again. I had it changed by someone I thought was competent but it leaked worse than before he changed it. I was thinking of reusing it with aircraft grade form-a-gasket, that I have, or should i buy another new one?

[AK83]

I would have thought that if it's been tested with the diagnostic to confirm injectors are clicking, then harness shouldn't be an issue.

I re-read the thread and didn't see any mention of fuel pressure test.
Has the fuel pressure been checked?

You said that the FPR was done not long before. By who? experienced? did they use the correct gasket? ... etc.

From my recollection of FPR in kits, they usually come with two gaskets. one earlier type and one later type. If thats the case for you, did whoever fit the FPR use the right one. IIRC you have a D2a, so should be the EU3 type.

Another thing to be mindful of is the o-ring for the gauze fuel filter in the head. Not an obvious one to see and do either.
If a generic o-ring is used, can cause problems too.

[shack]

So whilst the car was underpowered, it still ran ok?

How long was the incline you were on when the fuel line let go?

I E. Were you at full power for some time while going up the incline?

[Tins]

The engine won't even fire with ether sprayed directly into the inlet manifold.

Hmm... Before I discovered what a muppet I had been with getting my CPS stuck inside the bellhousing the thing would run on ether. That, and the scan tool showing RPM would seem to suggest it's not the CPS. Even a non shielded wiring issue should still fire on ether. Same argument re injectors. Ether will fire regardless, unless it's a compression related issue, imo. Is the cam actually turning? Longshot, I know, but...

To me, and I'm far from expert, your statement above is highly telling.

[V8Ian]

Yes the cam is turning, the injectors are firing.
Discofender made a pertinent point, connecting the fuel line failures with odd compression numbers. i find it hard to believe that copper washers could leak enough compression for diesel and ether not to fire......but in the absence of any any other explanation....
The chain looks in good condition, definitely not worn enough to have jumped a tooth.

[Tins]

Still weird it won't kick on ether. Diesels are known as compression ignition engines. Makes no sense that ether won't at least cough. Injector washers would have to be seriously stuffed imo. Is there diesel in the oil?