Sticking clutch

[POD]

The clutch in my 2.4 tdci 130 is sticking badly, to the extent that I occasionally have to switch the engine off to select 1st or reverse. It's an LOF clutch. There's no visible evidence of a leaking rear main of front gearbox oil seal. I'm going to have to pull the gearbox and see what is going on. Has anyone had this problem and can suggest a known cause that I should look for?

[DazzaTD5]

Do you mean sticking as in you press the clutch pedal yet you cant engage gears?

*the standard clutch I would have said one of the large springs has fallen out and is sitting behind the pressure plate (or cover plate) fingers thus not allowing the fingers to move freely.
*are you sure the master is not leaking?
*are you sure the slave isnt leaking? (it may not be visible until it leaks out the bottom hole in the bell housing)

[POD]

Do you mean sticking as in you press the clutch pedal yet you cant engage gears?

*the standard clutch I would have said one of the large springs has fallen out and is sitting behind the pressure plate (or cover plate) fingers thus not allowing the fingers to move freely.
*are you sure the master is not leaking?
*are you sure the slave isnt leaking? (it may not be visible until it leaks out the bottom hole in the bell housing)

Yes Dazza it's sticking as in when I press the clutch, it is difficult and sometimes impossible to engage a gear when stationary.
I don't think it's losing fluid- certainly not a significant amount as it's been a problem for some months now and hasn't run out of fluid, no fluid dripping from the bell housing either. The clutch pedal has a good feel. It's a bugger to bleed but I'm reasonably confident I've got the air out of it from when I last had it apart (well I guess I'm not 100% confident of that, given that it is acting the same as if I wasn't getting full movement of the slave cylinder).
I'll have a look at the firewall to ensure there's no fluid at the back of the m/cyl. Just thinking it might be worth giving it another bleed- certainly easier than dropping the gearbox. I'm open to suggestions of the best bleeding method for these clutches; I've had to 'reverse bleed' the thing before, pumping fluid up from underneath. I'm not a fan of how far upstream of the slave cylinder the bleed nipple is either.

[DazzaTD5]

honestly its the easiest model to bleed a clutch on...

*Connect a bleed tube to the bleeder valve (below on the passenger side) have it run into your fav old plastic drink container (thats a joke, it really is a bad habit people do)
*(bleed bottles are very cheap and readily available from most auto shops)
*A bit of fluid in the bottle.
*open valve.
*up top, a very small funnel will sit nicely in place, make sure master is full.
*two gentle pedal pushes with your hand.
*top up master again.
*repeat two pedal pushes.
*repeat top up.
*keep doing that, more than needed does flush it out nicely.

When I have done a clutch i connect the bleed tube and open the valve, then I continue to put the gear stick and rubber floor back in, by the time i get to the bleeding its already mostly done.

[POD]

Funny that you say it's the easiest, I've found it the most difficult vehicle I have ever bled a clutch in, I've never been able to get it to gravity bleed at all and could not even prime it from the master cylinder when I last reassembled it, had to reverse bleed by setting up an injection system from below, a right pain in the neck. I don't think that the bleed nipple being about a foot from the slave cylinder helps anything either.
When time permits, I'll give it another bleed but I doubt that is the trouble, the pedal feels as it should and once it's in gear it takes up where it should.
I'm going to be doing some re-adjustment to the body mounts as I never got it quite right with the chassis swap, I might pull the box at that time and see if there's anything obvious going on inside the bell housing.

[POD]

Returning to this thread, I have removed the gearbox today to investigate what is going on with this clutch, it's been an absolute pain and I have frequently been having to switch the motor off to engage first or reverse. I had been wondering if the step in the flywheel had been machined incorrectly.
Everything appears to be just as it should be, the step in the flywheel is 25.53mm, or 0.13mm deeper than spec- would be the opposite if that was going to be the problem.
I'm thinking the most likely thing has to be air in the slave cylinder itself (I'm 100% sure there was no air in the line upstream of the bleed nipple). I'm wondering if it is normal practise to prime these slave cylinders upon installation? There's so much fluid space downstream from the bleed nipple, seems to me if there's air in there on installation it's never going to come out. I'm not accustomed to this style of slave cylinder.

[roverrescue]

POD
The only dramas I had bleeding the MT82 clutch was when I was limping a shagged slave cylinder along when on Badu
With not even a trolley Jack I wasn’t excited about dropping the boxes

So I replaced master and bled out the system so many times before relenting and doing the job in the dirt

Anyways - new clutch (LOF) and all new hydraulics as per recs here
And on reinstall it about bled itself

I would be considering changing out the slave

Do you have a dud slave ?

S

[POD]

I've ordered a new slave cylinder even though it's only done about 20,000km, since the box is out I thought it best to fit a new slave cylinder, spigot bearing and the plastic tube that goes to the slave cylinder. Waiting on those parts to arrive after the long weekend. It occurred to me yesterday that perhaps the master cylinder is the source of trouble, I did replace it a while back but I think I bought a cheapy, don't recall the specifics.

[roverrescue]

Those masters have a long history of internally bypassing?
Definite possibility

Out of interest - how did the LOF clutch, fingers and springs look after 20kkm?
You mention it was all in spec - no appreciable wear ?

[POD]

The clutch itself all looks brand new. There was some unevenness in the pressure plate fingers out of the box, they are all at an even height now.

[DazzaTD5]

Yes... I would have started with replacing the clutch master, cheap **** trailer ones dont last long.

now that its out you should replace all three components of the hydraulics. The slave, the adaptor and the reducer valve. All three should be the later style.

[BrunyIan]

Yes... I would have started with replacing the clutch master, cheap **** trailer ones dont last long.

now that its out you should replace all three components of the hydraulics. The slave, the adaptor and the reducer valve. All three should be the later style.

Had a similar problem recently after a clutch/hydraulics replacement ( 2007 2.4 Tdci ) Hard to engage 1st gear with the engine running. This was resolved by cutting out/removing a section of the (Exmour) floor mat & mud mat that was preventing the clutch pedal from reaching full stroke - near 20mm in total. Problem solved in my case.

[POD]

With hydraulics replaced and adjusted, everything seems to be working just as it should. I couldn't get a decent pedal throw with the pedal height adjusted to the LR specification though, had to bring it up a bit which- as Dazza has suggested- puts it pretty much level with the brake pedal.

[POD]

This is getting to be a right pain- I'm back to having to switch the engine off to engage first or reverse. Thought I had it beat, but after a 10,000km trip, I'm back to square one.

[POD]

I've been in touch with LOF, the clutch supplier. Got a suggestion to back the stop bolt out, which I have done with no effect. Also adjusted the pushrod again to maximise the pedal stroke. I am unable to select a gear with the engine running, makes the car a real pain to drive- having to sit through traffic light cycles with my foot on the clutch, switch the engine off and on repeatedly when parking. I'm open to any suggestions on this.

[POD]

I've adjusted the clutch m/cyl pushrod and the pedal stop for maximum stroke, with no effect. Here are results of my testing this evening...

- The pedal feel is normal, i.e. feels like it is operating the clutch normally. Take-up is about halfway up. There are no notches or tight spots through the pedal stroke.
-with the engine running, applying pressure with the gearstick attempting to engage first or reverse, the vehicle creeps but won't engage the gear.
-switch off the engine, engage first or reverse and re-start with clutch depressed- there is no creeping until the pedal takes up, about halfway up from the floor. Tested on level tarmac and even with a bit of a downhill gradient; definitely no drag or creep once engaged.
-engine running, clutch depressed and car stationary, I can forcefully select a higher gear, e.g. third, fourth, although it feels rough. Sometimes I can get it into second, and then rapidly into first- again, feels rough.
-if I attempt to take off in a high gear- i.e. induce some drag- it seems to ?free up? and then allow first or reverse to be selected. If I then select neutral, release the clutch, depress it again and attempt to select a gear, it won't select.


It feels to me like the friction surfaces are binding together, but the binding is broken when a gear is actually engaged. It's got me stumped. And frustrated.

[Blknight.aus]

I've adjusted the clutch m/cyl pushrod and the pedal stop for maximum stroke, with no effect. Here are results of my testing this evening...

- The pedal feel is normal, i.e. feels like it is operating the clutch normally. Take-up is about halfway up. There are no notches or tight spots through the pedal stroke.
-with the engine running, applying pressure with the gearstick attempting to engage first or reverse, the vehicle creeps but won't engage the gear.
-switch off the engine, engage first or reverse and re-start with clutch depressed- there is no creeping until the pedal takes up, about halfway up from the floor. Tested on level tarmac and even with a bit of a downhill gradient; definitely no drag or creep once engaged.
-engine running, clutch depressed and car stationary, I can forcefully select a higher gear, e.g. third, fourth, although it feels rough. Sometimes I can get it into second, and then rapidly into first- again, feels rough.
-if I attempt to take off in a high gear- i.e. induce some drag- it seems to ?free up? and then allow first or reverse to be selected. If I then select neutral, release the clutch, depress it again and attempt to select a gear, it won't select.


It feels to me like the friction surfaces are binding together, but the binding is broken when a gear is actually engaged. It's got me stumped. And frustrated.

could be drag on the spigot bearing or a warped friction plate.

Ive also seen 1 incident of a bent clutch finger not fully disengaging but then that was a clutch abused on a burn out strip

[BradC]

Can you slip it into second or third and then straight back to first or reverse?

[POD]

Yes I can sometimes- but not always- get it into 3rd, less often able to get 2nd, when I can get 2nd I can sometimes- but not always- slam it into 1st from there.
I renewed the spigot bearing last time it was apart- just before our trip 10,000km ago. I checked with a piece of shaft the same diameter as the input shaft and there was free rotation.

Luke from LOF has asked if I checked the friction plate for flatness, which I did not. Or runout. I guess I'll be pulling the gearbox out again. Oh joy. Happily I made a couple of cradles to lift the transfer and the gearbox from underneath with a floor crane, will make that part of the task a lot easier. I'll order some fresh torque-yield bolts for the pressure plate whilst I try to psych myself up for the job. I re-used them last time, probably not a good idea to go a third time.

I had a thought overnight about the fact that I have been using a gearbox oil other than the Ford or LR supplied stuff, I'm using the Penrite full synthetic of the grade specified by Ashcrofts. Perhaps there is something magical about the Ford oil ($80 per litre 5 years ago) but I can't make that fit with these symptoms.

[Blknight.aus]

- The pedal feel is normal, i.e. feels like it is operating the clutch normally. Take-up is about halfway up.

Thats not normal, take up should be up near or past 3/4 of the way up. Initial pressureisation should be within about 30mm of pedal movement.

whats the pedal do if you clamp the flex line...

[DazzaTD5]

On a Defender TDCi, the pedal starts to engage the clutch not far off the floor.
the adjustment as per the workshop manual is not correct, the adjustment is getting the pedal in line with the brake pedal
the back stop on the housing doesnt do anything.

If you go to my youtube page I do have a video on the master cylinder, may or may not help.
but i think it does show the adjustment of the rod.
https://youtu.be/8oQloJth56g?feature=shared

underneath have you looked at the external parts for any minor leaks?
the last time it was out did you replace all the components of the hydraulics?

When I get a job like that, i suck it up and replace all the parts if I cant find the issue, if its not the hydraulic parts then its the mechanical parts OR you are doing something wrong.
If it was me.... I would now be looking at removing the gearbox yet again

[POD]

Yes the take-up is higher than normal, as I have adjusted for maximum possible throw. There are no leaks and the fluid level has not moved during our 10,000km outback trip, having replaced all hydraulic components plus the spigot just before we left. Seems to me most likely that the clutch plate is warped or bent. not sure when I'll be pulling it out again, bit over it at present. Maybe next week.