Reverting to original single battery?

[jc109]

Hi all,

The cranker Optima D34 yellow top) and aux (Varta G14) in my Puma 110 are failing and are both due for immediate replacement, and I'm thinking very seriously about reverting to the original single battery setup, and could use a bit of help. Of course any thoughts on this would be welcome.

There are a few reasons I'm toying with the idea of going back to basics. Some of these are:

1. Simplicity. The wiring in there has become a bit messy over the years. This might be an opportunity to tidy things up.
2. I'm rough on my batteries owing to the intermittent use the car gets. I find I'm under that seat frequently, and the lack of room with the twin batteries makes any work a challenge.
3. Since filling this box with two batteries and the associated gear, I lost a spot for my jack and tools. I'd welcome the chance to put these back where they belong.
4. We now tow a caravan for all camping trips, so despite always carrying the Engel in the rear, I figure I can make do with running it of the cranking battery for most trips.
5. The prevalence of lithium batteries has me thinking a smaller, lighter aux in the rear when required might do the trick if/when I need it. Or maybe even a single lithium starter as I've seen mentioned on here in other posts in the past.

One issue I face with achieving this is the fact that when I put the Scorpion tray in some 15 years ago, it appears I threw out the OEM tray and securing clamps, as I can't find them anywhere. I'm hoping someone can help me find replacements. Even photos of an unadulterated battery box would be of great assistance, as I'm not sure what it's supposed to look like.

Alternatively, I could of course just put one battery in on the higher tray I now have. This doesn't completely fix the space issue, but it's simpler than ripping everything out and starting again. Although I do like the idea of it being somewhat original. If I just do this I suppose I could fabricate suitable mounts for the other bits and pieces I'd want to stow in there. And it mhat might get easier still if I grind the lips off the edge of the tray.

My DBS is a Traxide SC80, and I'm not sure whether that can handle a lithium aux, so that might end up getting removed too.

Any thoughts on all this? Am I crazy? Should I pursue the single (maybe lithium) battery, or do I persevere with what I have?

Cheers,

JC

[austastar]

Hi, I put an original battery back in just before COVID, it was $700 if I remember.
Cheers

[rovers4]

In my Def. the battery was secured direct to the compartment floor, if my memory is correct.

The box under the driver's seat has plenty of space for some tools.

Possibly go for cheaper, but still reliable batteries - Supercharge AGM?

[Blknight.aus]

get the cat battery and if you need a second battery to run a fridge overnight the 36ah lithium pack from kings is working a treat.

[drivesafe]

Hi JC, my guess is your Optima is the problem and just a suggestion, because you have the older type Defender, you do not have a SMART alternator.

As such, you can use and charge a lithium battery properly without the need of a DC/DC device.

I highly recommend against using a lithium battery as a cranking battery as this runs the risk of damaging any vehicle electronics if the lithium battery shuts down for any reason, while the motor is running.

However, if you move the Varta to the cranking battery, and run a lithium as an auxiliary battery, within just a few weeks of fitting the lithium battery, combined with the way the Traxide SC80 isolator works, you will most likely regain full use of the Varta and thanks to the lithium battery keeping the Varta topped up and fully charged at all times, the Varta will last many more years than it normally would.

Again, this is just a suggestion!

[jc109]

Thanks all for the suggestions so far. BTW, @Rovers4, I wish I could use the driver's side box, but that's full of other bits and pieces (compressor, amp, etc).

So, I removed both batteries and then charged them separately over the past couple of days. Each dropped to just over 12.7V straight away and seemed to hold that charge okay. I then took them to a fairly well known national battery vendor who tested both and measured the Optima Yellow Top at 840 of its rated 870CCA and the Varta at 83 of its possible 850CCA. That was unexpected. (edit: I just realised my yellow top is only rated to 770CCA, so this is even weirder).

Note that I bought the Varta in June 2012 and the Optima in July 2016, so they've both had a good run. But oddly, I've had ongoing issues starting my car, regardless of whether I've left it on charge while I'm away, and I've always been able to jump from the aux to the starter. I don't understand how that works given those figures. I'm even thinking there might be an issue with my wiring, so will check all is in order before I finish this job. Although, those lifespans would indicate otherwise.

Anyway, I'm mobile again using the Optima on its own, and am looking for a lithium to replace the Varta as my aux. @Drivesafe, I appreciate your advice, and am looking at a lithium based purely on your remark that it'll keep my starter in better health too. I mentioned your advice when discussing options at said retailer, and unsurprisingly was told I must use a DC-DC charger if I go down that route. I then stuck my head in at Baintech, who said I could use whatever DBS I wanted to with their batteries, but to bear in mind I wouldn't achieve max charge on the lithium unless I had solar or some other direct input to ensure it received its full 14 point whatever charge V. He said this would cause no issues with longevity, but to just allow for only about 80% or so of max Ah as usable. So, I guess the SC80 can live on. Oh, and he also confirmed that the slow cycling of the starter into the lithium would indeed give it greater longevity. 13 and 9 years of life respectively isn't anything to sneeze at, but if I can do better this next time around then I'll be very happy indeed.

Does anyone have recommendations on lithium brands? @Blknight, Kings is noted. I've also looked at Baintech, iTech, Victron, and Voltgo (which I hadn't heard of until today). The first two seem to have the most convenient sizes and capacities for what I'm after. Oddly, very few offer anything to match exactly the dimensions of the D34. If anyone can steer me in the direction of something like that (or smaller) it'd be brilliant, as I'd really like to keep the bulk to a minimum.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

FYI my TD5 has a bit of vampire drain. I think between the various car bits and the ERPS it's a bit over 400 MAH. Doesn't sound like much - but if your car sits for weeks without running it becomes a big deal.

I was having issues like this and I bought a good quality victron 15A battery charger. Whenever It's sitting around I leave it on the victron. Every since then been great. Everytime you start it the batteries are top top top.

I just replaced my cranking battery at 7 because I thought I should.

[jc109]

FYI my TD5 has a bit of vampire drain. I think between the various car bits and the ERPS it's a bit over 400 MAH. Doesn't sound like much - but if your car sits for weeks without running it becomes a big deal.

I was having issues like this and I bought a good quality victron 15A battery charger. Whenever It's sitting around I leave it on the victron. Every since then been great. Everytime you start it the batteries are top top top.

I just replaced my cranking battery at 7 because I thought I should.

I might replace my Optima too once I get to the bottom of this, just for peace of mind.

However, I do leave my car on charge when I'm away, with the same Victron charger I'm guessing you have. 11 days on charge, and no joy on first attempt at starting this time around. I've run CTEKs, a Century, and now this Victron. But I still have issues.

Anyway, I'll treat this as a fresh start. Once I land on the right lithium replacement I'll check and potentially redo all my wiring just to be sure.

[Blknight.aus]

Optima Yellow Top at 840 of its rated 870CCA and the Varta at 83 of its possible 850CCA. That was unexpected. (edit: I just realised my yellow top is only rated to 770CCA, so this is even weirder).

Does anyone have recommendations on lithium brands? @Blknight, Kings is noted. I've also looked at Baintech, iTech, Victron, and Voltgo (which I hadn't heard of until today). The first two seem to have the most convenient sizes and capacities for what I'm after. Oddly, very few offer anything to match exactly the dimensions of the D34. If anyone can steer me in the direction of something like that (or smaller) it'd be brilliant, as I'd really like to keep the bulk to a minimum.



The over CCA thing is part of marketing. To ensure the battery makes a reasonable lifespan most are over what their plate says I've seen as high as 1250CCA on a battery rated for 900CCA test it a couple of months later and its down near 1000. Its also potentially a case of someone not doing the test correctly and relying on one of the new electronic testers but using an incorrect setting. I have one and Its good for a general indication but I've also done a field test of it VS and old school battery toaster tester and the 2 do not agree. Ive had batteries pass the CCA test but fail on state of health and the RC test. That same battery immediately failed on the toaster.

The rest of this post is some general background

If you're going to keep them well protected the kings batteries are hard to go past on overall value, I have several 1 each of the 12 24 and 36ah battery bank units (glorified phone charger but they do do the business with even the 12AH running a 40l fridge for a couple of hours and if you have a 60w usbC charger they charge on the go over USB while outputting power, even better is they have a small plug that will take upto something like 27v at up to 5 amps and can charge via that while still powering things. For what 50% of people are going to use a dual battery system for the 36Ah units are the best bang for buck for keeping a couple of lights on, charging a phone or 2 and running the fridge overnight.

The kings, itech, Victron batteries in the following capacities 60,100,120, 200 and 300 Ah range are largely the same in capacity and performance when it comes to what comes out of the terminals. The itech and victron do usually have a better BMS which will allow you to parallel more batteries (all hit the same limit in series last I checked at 4 batteries for 48v nominal) and in some cases now also include bluetooth monitoring in the battery itself. Itech and victron do have better sealing and construction but none of them like getting too hot or too cold.

The following are all based on kings experience and the experience ties in well with the information I have from some of the guys who run victron Itech and a few others so apart from a bit about the DC/DC units you can largely substitute any name brand battery and the same holds true

I had a 60, I gave it away to a customer and split the difference with him on a 100 AH battery (kings had no stock, it was the largest battery he could fit where he wanted it and he wanted it NOW) in the few weeks I had it running on a kings 25A dcdc I was happy with it, it was out performing the N70 It replaced in terms of fridge running ability.)

The 100 I then sold onto a customer after about 6 months of use for similar reasons again more than happy with it and it was quite content running the 600w inverter when I needed it and as it was bought to take the place of the 60, performed well in the role. the 100 provided additional buffer for the longer stays when I was mainly running from solar alone. It seemed to be willing to draw more amps out of the solar system than the 60 and usually sat at a higher state of charge.

At the same tme as I was moving the 100 on kings had a smashing offer on batteries and bits and bobs and I got some fantastic deals on 2 each of the 120 and 300amp batteries. the 2 300s are in parallel and run a 3500 renogy inverter (usually mainly from solar) and the 120's are each in their own battery box with their own DCDC. (I got the boxes dc/dcs inverters solarpanels and a bunch of freebies for a total cost that still isnt beaten by the advertised price yet) as the 120s were gotten to replace a single 100 Im obviously happy with them and they will individualy start a 1000w rated compressor on a 1500w inverter IF you power up the inverter first let it sit for 10 seconds and then turn on the compressor. both happily run my 1100w induction cook top.

the twin 300s have done everything anticipated with ability to spare including running a bachelor pad for about 2 months from only solar just because I was curious. light weight pc with a 12v monitor, fridge cooking, washing machine the internet router and 12v lighting.

Heres the rub, the thing that will get you the most bang for your buck out of your battery is your choice of inverter, how you load it, the fridge you put on it and the DCDC you use to charge it.

Ive got experience with the Redarc, the kings and the renogy units.

I am not happy with the renogy units that Ive tried or had to fit for customers, they have nice features but they were a little power hungry and lossy in the their conversion and the ones I was setting up did not have solar priority. not a show stopper They also did not permit charging from 24v. this was a couple of years back now and hopefully they've changed. Their inverter chargers are excellent but again 12v or 24v only.

The redarc and kings units perform similarly on the alternator power side, have all the same battery mappings but differ significantly on the solar side. With the redarc as soon as the solar voltage is higher than the battery voltage they start trying to charge. The kings units need to have enough omph behind them to get something like 2.5-3 amps flowing to the battery before they start charging but once they are charging so long as the panel voltage doesnt fall below battery voltage they hang on. if your using a partially shaded panel, its cloudy day or the panels a bit dirty you'll get more from the redarc. But in full sun the kings unit pushes about an extra amp.

Match your DC/DC to your battery. a 40A dcdc on a 60A battery will punch enough amps to cause the BMS to shut down if you dont have some load on to soak up the excess amperage. similarly while a 25a will charge a paralleled pair of 300's it take bloody ages.

Know the limiitations of the battery wake function.

If you have the battery box on, the battery is flat enough and you have something plugged into the usb socket thats trying to pull a full charge rate, on both the kings 25 and 40 dcdc the battery wake function will not throw enough to wake the battery up. In most configurations if you turn off the battery box the connection to the battery is also turned off. Ive been bragged at that this isnt an issue with the itech and redarc DCDC but then testing it out with the fridge plugged in bought the game up short.

I solved this issue by getting a 12v lithium jump pack (kings) and moddifying the connection to an anderson socket. setup the charging, plug it in and then hit the go button, works every time. and yes the kings jump pack starts arkie with 2xn120 batteries showing under 8v on the starter terminal. Ive used this to jump start more cars now than my jumper cables and its got probably 60 or 70 BMS restarts to its credit. for extra value its also got the same socket connector thats now generically used as the plug on most 12v strip led light systems. Theres been more than one occasion where its pulled duty to get enough lights going for just long enough to work out why they went out in the first place (heres a free hint, wrap some glow in the dark tape on your socket connections on your lighting system).

Depending on what the next range of kings lithium batteries holds when the ones I have finally die Im looking at replacing them with the ITECHworld Xpro equivelents, mainly because of the reviews on the BMS. (and its bluetooth so you dont need external shunts and monitors)


Hope thats of some help

and remember as a guide you get what you pay for with lithium batteries BUT some are just expensive rebrands and repackages that are functionally and physically identical to kings stuff.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Talking about standby. My new hardkorr 135a battery goes into standby after a couple of weeks apparently. Or when low voltage. It has a little port and a button that you plug in and press to wake it up.

This is fine with me. I've found it's self discharge so far to be very very minimal.