Where did you fit your Lithium battery?

[p38arover]

Where have you fitted you auxiliary lithium ion battery in your Disco or Rangie (and, perhaps Defender?

I was looking at a YT video from StacheD about the electric narrow boat in the UK which caught fire. What caught my eye were the emissions from a LiFePO4 battery that was entering thermal runaway, in particular carbon monoxide. One could be overcome by it before one was aware.


https://youtu.be/JWBt6nv8U58'si=PfGK63fjHjSFGPhs

In a Ute, one might put it in the tray so it would be well ventilated. In a van, one could enclose it in a box vented to the outside as is done with LPG.

In a station wagon that's not so easy.

[Slunnie]

I thought these days you now had to put them somewhere sealed that vented to outside if it was inside the cabin of the car or caravan???

[p38arover]

Probably, but who does so in a car?

[Graeme]

I have a small 60Ah Lithium in the back corner of the car strapped in between the fridge and the side cover where it can very easily be unclipped and unplugged then pulled straight out the back. The 48V lithium MH battery can't be easily removed.

[BradC]

We were considering replacing one of the large lead acid banks in the boat with LFPs, but given the engine compartment is under the cabin that video has me reconsidering the idea entirely. The only other viable place to put them is down the back, but putting them in a locker with 700L of diesel doesn't feel like a great idea either.

Might stick with the lead acids for now.

[Fluids]

Google AI overview ?.

Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries are generally considered safer than other lithium-ion battery chemistries. They are less prone to thermal runaway (https://www.google.com/search'sca_esv=0aead21ad7419255&sxsrf=AE3TifMgCyCbzLUZAXuZZZTcKS2F4BjI3w%3A1755414 510764&q=thermal+runaway&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjX3ePSpJGPAxUAklYBHTWbOHoQxccNegQINBAB&mstk=AUtExfDF3If7s0cli23Dls3PFjv-miqcrtNzXGyEk_pdyoaAV3s028DeKzRYNQuw-lSKO8LiT4xSFLzFuTLI-25C-vYOhEaWR7AjZrIoiNw7bWabYVr6yZcOVvJwcgYdG-KGF2Djni72pE63ffqu6T4HGI9f6uasoEPBurB2O5KkMFpOhp8&csui=3) and overheating, which can lead to fires and explosions. This is due to the stable chemical structure of LiFePO4, which makes it more resistant to temperature fluctuations and external damage.



Here's a more detailed look at the safety aspects:

Reasons for Increased Safety:




Stable Chemistry:
The strong covalent bonds between iron, phosphorus, and oxygen in the LiFePO4 cathode make it more stable and less likely to decompose under stress.
Reduced Thermal Runaway Risk:
LiFePO4 batteries have a higher thermal runaway temperature, meaning they require more heat to initiate a runaway reaction. This reduces the risk of fire or explosion from overheating.
Non-flammable Electrolyte:
Unlike some other lithium-ion batteries, LiFePO4 batteries use a non-flammable electrolyte, further minimizing fire hazards.
Lower Energy Density (in some cases):
While this can be a drawback in terms of power output, lower energy density also means less potential energy stored within the battery, reducing the severity of any incidents.


Important Considerations:




Physical Damage:
Even LiFePO4 batteries can be vulnerable to fire if physically damaged, such as through nail penetration (https://www.google.com/search'sca_esv=0aead21ad7419255&sxsrf=AE3TifMgCyCbzLUZAXuZZZTcKS2F4BjI3w%3A1755414 510764&q=nail+penetration&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjX3ePSpJGPAxUAklYBHTWbOHoQxccNegUI2gEQA Q&mstk=AUtExfDF3If7s0cli23Dls3PFjv-miqcrtNzXGyEk_pdyoaAV3s028DeKzRYNQuw-lSKO8LiT4xSFLzFuTLI-25C-vYOhEaWR7AjZrIoiNw7bWabYVr6yZcOVvJwcgYdG-KGF2Djni72pE63ffqu6T4HGI9f6uasoEPBurB2O5KkMFpOhp8&csui=3), especially when fully charged, according to a YouTube video.
Proper Handling and Maintenance:
Like any battery, LiFePO4 batteries should be handled and maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions. This includes avoiding overcharging, over-discharging, and exposing them to extreme temperatures.
BMS (Battery Management System):
A well-functioning BMS is crucial for LiFePO4 batteries, as it helps prevent overcharging, over-discharging, and other issues that can compromise safety.
Quality and Vendor:
Purchasing from reputable vendors is important to ensure you are getting a high-quality battery with proper safety features and certifications.


In summary: LiFePO4 batteries offer a significant safety advantage over many other lithium-ion chemistries, especially in terms of thermal runaway and fire risk. However, like all batteries, they require proper handling, maintenance, and a good BMS to ensure optimal and safe performance

=============

So battery chemistry plays a major role ?. The LiFePO4 batteries we all use to replace our lead acid/AGM batteries for auxiliary power are NOT the same as lithium iron batteries we see used in EV's ? which are the ones we are seeing major issues with in regard to fire & runaways.

I have a 140AHr LiFePO4 in a portable battery box mounted in front of the fridge in the rear of the wagon ? charged by a 25A DC/DC ? I guess there's always the old ?it's all good until it isn't? adage but I feel fairly confident about my setup ? ymmv.

Kev..

[p38arover]

I'm struggling to find a suitable location in my L322 with the drawers in place. I do have a possible location if i remove the 20 litre water container.

I'm going camping next weekend and i need the water as there is no supply nearby. I have temporarily strapped my 100Ah LFP to the top of my drawers - see the top right of the pic below.
(sorry pic is out of focus. I can't take photos with a phone, they are always out of focus.)

194351

[Captain_Rightfoot]

In the defender its in the box under the seat, which is mostly sealed to the inside and vented underneath. I'm calling that design a lucky happening of dumb luck.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

If you are really that worried about fire risk, who discharges their battery to around half when not in use. It's better for the battery life, and lower fire risk. Who turns the charger off when not using the battery?

[drivesafe]

If you are really that worried about fire risk, who discharges their battery to around half when not in use. It's better for the battery life, and lower fire risk. Who turns the charger off when not using the battery?
If you are using a GENUINE Lithium battery charger, unlike lead acid battery chargers, where they go into FLOAT mode once the lead acid battery is fully charged, a Lithium battery charger MUST TURN OFF automatically once the lithium battery is fully charged.

My guess is that many of the fires we see on the news are caused by pour quality battery chargers that do not turn off once the lithium battery reaches a fully charged state.'

This continuous, ( even low current ) charging is what leads to thermal runaway in any lithium battery.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

If you are using a GENUINE Lithium battery charger, unlike lead acid battery chargers, where they go into FLOAT mode once the lead acid battery is fully charged, a Lithium battery charger MUST TURN OFF automatically once the lithium battery is fully charged.

My guess is that many of the fires we see on the news are caused by pour quality battery chargers that do not turn off once the lithium battery reaches a fully charged state.'

This continuous, ( even low current ) charging is what leads to thermal runaway in any lithium battery.

I'm using a Victron Orion charger set up with the suggested voltages specified by the manufacturer. It's all pretty new, but I did try and watch it. It did shut down charging when the battery was charged.

What I'm unclear about is how it will handle having 5amps or so of load going through the system when I've got the fridge and stuff inside the car. Will the charger just switch to satisfy the devices?

I do like that I can turn charging off when I'm not using the car in trip mode and there is no load on the secondary system.

[drivesafe]

I'm using a Victron Orion charger set up with the suggested voltages specified by the manufacturer. It's all pretty new, but I did try and watch it. It did shut down charging when the battery was charged.

What I'm unclear about is how it will handle having 5amps or so of load going through the system when I've got the fridge and stuff inside the car. Will the charger just switch to satisfy the devices?

I do like that I can turn charging off when I'm not using the car in trip mode and there is no load on the secondary system.
The charger will monitor the battery and will switch on if the battery needs a top up and then turn off agin.

[p38arover]

I'm using a Kings 25A DC-DC to charge my lithium in the L322. I have a display on the dash which shows the charge current. The charge appears to drop to zero when the battery is fully charged.

[drivesafe]

I'm using a Kings 25A DC-DC to charge my lithium in the L322. I have a display on the dash which shows the charge current. The charge appears to drop to zero when the battery is fully charged.
Its not an issue while driving.

If you were to drive 15+ hours straight, then it might be a problem but as most trips are no more than 5 hours on average, even when charging directly off a "non SMART" alternator like those found in original Defenders, where the voltage remains at around a constant 14.3v, no one drives long enough for this to be a problem, even if the lithium battery was already in a fully charged state at the beginning of the drive.

Lithium Batteries charge in a similar way to lead acid batteries in that the lower the state of charge of the battery, the higher the current draw, and just like lead acid batteries, as a lithium battery approaches a fully charged state, the current draw reduces, so the battery is not effected by our short drive times.