Engine Failure and Rodent Damage - Possible Link?

[reubsrover]

Hi all,


I've recently acquired a 2015 Vogue with an SDV8 engine in it. I purchased it from the auctions and repaired the minor damage it had. All was going well until I heard a knock from then engine one day and opened the bonnet to find a dead rat against the fan belt and up against the vacuum control lines at the front of the engine. Long story short, after two and a half months insurance gave me a report worded in two sentences that there is no link between the two events (rodent damage and engine failure) and offered to payout for the damage to brake booster hose, coolant return hose, coolant expansion tank and some wiring insulation. The report was effectively two sentences and did not detail any tests carried out (some photos were included) or detail what systems were inspected and found undamaged.


Obviously I know that an even like engine failure is possible to happen concurrently with rodent damage and remain unlinked however I want to ensure that any possibility that these two events are linked is fully eliminated before I accept the insurance companies preferred version of events.


What should I be asking for? How could these events be possibly linked?


Other symptoms to note;


Vehicle was within service schedule
no excessive coolant loss or overheating observed
no excessive oil loss (reading in levels) although there was a know leak likely from rear main seal
on the drive before claim made and rat found there was a slight surging/shudder under acceleration especially at lower rpm
seemed to be slightly excessive crankcase pressure on opening oil cap but no oil just vapor blowing out.


I noticed that at least one wire was exposed to copper (I think it was possibly the glow plug circuit).

Can anyone recommend an independent specialist to re-assess my case, preferably in Western Vic?


Thanks

[shack]

Sorry, having read this I'm not sure what you are after.

It seems that you thought the failure could be to do with rodent damage, but then state that it didn't cause coolant loss related overheating or loss of oil.

Are you trying to prove that the rodent damage IS related to the engine failure, or that it is NOT related to the engine failure?

Cheers
James

[V8Ian]

I'm similarly confused, James.
What is the knock? Internal or external of the engine?
If internal, with no compromisation of coolant or lubrication, I would suggest no correlation.

[reubsrover]

Yes, obviously trying to tie to external rodent damage as it happened simultaneously. Internal noise has resulted in metal filings in oil filter. I'm wondering if there is any other pathway from external damage from rodents (without overheating or excessive oil loss) to internal damage. Specifically with damage to vacuum systems possibly leading to turbo damage/boost issues or intake damage. Or alternatively wiring/fuel issues?

Insurance has stopped investigation the moment filings were found and I'm wanting to know if there's any systems that could fail leading to this type of damage. What diagnostics should I reasonably expect (without puling engine apart)?

[V8Ian]

I believe you need to determine the origin of the filings.
Can you postpone settlement, pending further investigation, at your expence?

[DieselLSE]

Metal filings in oil filter will most likely be from bearing failure. Unfortunately, nothing to do with rodents. Also, unfortunately, the engine will need to be rebuilt (if possible) or replaced.

[Graeme]

Unfortunately the engines suffer main bearing failure just like the TDV6 (with exactly the same bearings) but without breaking the crankshaft and normally nothing to do with overheating, instead normally appearing to be due to poor oil quality from dilution. If there is coolant in the oil then perhaps dilution is by coolant rather than the usual diesel culprit. To prove the connection I would expect that a licensed mechaninc would have to have found coolant in the oil.

The bearing material is a very thin, hard coating on a soft aluminium base and if the hard coating is breached then the aluminium is very quickly destroyed, usually grabbing the journal causing the slipper to rotate which blocks the oil hole.

Edit: The oil leak at the back of the engine is most iikely from failed o-rings on the turbo oil feed pipe where it attaches to the back of the oil cooler or from leaking oil cooler gaskets. Oil often gets into the coolant from leaking oil cooler gaskets but normally coolant doesn't get into the oil.

[reubsrover]

I believe you need to determine the origin of the filings.
Can you postpone settlement, pending further investigation, at your expence?


Yes, I've done that. Just don't know who to see to investigate further. Car is being brought back to my place I believe.

My other issue is that despite stating to my insurance that the car should not be started (I stopped engine immediately upon first sound) it was driven on and off the tow truck and then started who knows how many times during the assessment. Initially the assessors determined that there was no internal damage (they couldn't hear anything) before I pushed them a bit and they heard the sound and opened up the filter.

[reubsrover]

Unfortunately the engines suffer main bearing failure just like the TDV6 (with exactly the same bearings) but without breaking the crankshaft and normally nothing to do with overheating, instead normally appearing to be due to poor oil quality from dilution. If there is coolant in the oil then perhaps dilution is by coolant rather than the usual diesel culprit. To prove the connection I would expect that a licensed mechaninc would have to have found coolant in the oil.

The bearing material is a very thin, hard coating on a soft aluminium base and if the hard coating is breached then the aluminium is very quickly destroyed, usually grabbing the journal causing the slipper to rotate which blocks the oil hole.

Edit: The oil leak at the back of the engine is most iikely from failed o-rings on the turbo oil feed pipe where it attaches to the back of the oil cooler or from leaking oil cooler gaskets. Oil often gets into the coolant from leaking oil cooler gaskets but normally coolant doesn't get into the oil.

Oil cooler has had gaskets previously replaced as has the o-rings.

[reubsrover]

Metal filings in oil filter will most likely be from bearing failure. Unfortunately, nothing to do with rodents. Also, unfortunately, the engine will need to be rebuilt (if possible) or replaced.

I understand that it's unlikely, my line of inquiry is, could it be possible given certain stressors such as increased crank case pressure or turbo boost issues? Or contaminants in air intake system...

[DieselLSE]

I understand that it's unlikely, my line of inquiry is, could it be possible given certain stressors such as increased crank case pressure or turbo boost issues? Or contaminants in air intake system...
Nup. But even if it was, that would not be covered by insurance (I suspect) as it normally doesn't cover mechanical failures.

[reubsrover]

Only other symptom to report is...the day before the issue surfaced there was a shuddering, almost felt like a fueling issue/misfiring or gearbox drive problem but only when the revs were low down around 1200.

[reubsrover]

Nup. But even if it was, that would not be covered by insurance (I suspect) as it normally doesn't cover mechanical failures.

They would if the mechanical problem was caused by rodents.

[Graeme]

Only other symptom to report is...the day before the issue surfaced there was a shuddering, almost felt like a fueling issue/misfiring or gearbox drive problem but only when the revs were low down around 1200.
Sounds exactly the same as my son's 3.0 D4. A slight shuddering was felt the day before a big-end ran dry then welded itself to the journal once the engine was switched off, caused by a rotated main bearing that blocked the oil into the bearing then crankshaft and to the adjacent big-end bearing.

[RANDLOVER]

I understand that it's unlikely, my line of inquiry is, could it be possible given certain stressors such as increased crank case pressure or turbo boost issues? Or contaminants in air intake system...

Unless the rat damaged sensor wiring but the ecu didn't see them as "out of range" and over fuelled the engine causing oil dilution and bearing failure.

[reubsrover]

Sounds exactly the same as my son's 3.0 D4. A slight shuddering was felt the day before a big-end ran dry then welded itself to the journal once the engine was switched off, caused by a rotated main bearing that blocked the oil into the bearing then crankshaft and to the adjacent big-end bearing.


Mmm not sounding ideal did he rebuild it or replace engine or just scrap it.

[Graeme]

A replacement 120K km engine c/w turbos was fitted but not before the original bearings were replaced with tri-metal bearings for their 2 wear layers so that the same can't happen again. The dead engine is in one of my sheds in case a use can be found for anything such as the heads.

Usually the 4.4's crank is beyond grinding but often the block is OK.

[V8Ian]

A rodent squatting in your engine bay is not going to prematurely wear the bearings. Take what the insurance are offering and move on. I'm really quite suprised they're offering anything.

[loanrangie]

Yep think you are up the creek without a paddle, auction vehicle with unknown service history.

[BradC]

A rodent squatting in your engine bay is not going to prematurely wear the bearings.

No, but he might be sitting there with a chunk of alloy and a file putting shavings down the oil cap. A shower of bastards they are.