Needing some suggestions

[d1disco]

First i want to say, I wasn't sure where to post this, as it is a "general" post, but, it is about Land Rovers.
Anyway i digress, it's been a while since owning my D1, and I do miss her.
Anyway the family, and the dog, are interested in camping again. Ideally with a camper trailer in tow.
The current very boring, but reliable, Mitsubishi Outlander is no good for doing 4x4 or towing, so now looking for an alternative.
I've read most of the problems about all of the discos, and cop it at work about them, but I love a disco. Well up to a D4, not so much after that.
My question is, which series would be best for reliability (i don't mind putting some work in, but i'm by no means super handy) will do off road (potentially to do a Cape Trip) and survive pulling up to a 2T trailer.
I'm only thinking Camper Trailers at the moment, so heaviest has been at 2T.
I was thinking a D2, but I do like the D3 and D4. It does seem, as long as you haven't ended up with a made on Friday or Monday model, they are pretty good.
In my head, i want to add a bull bar or winch, or get one already with those added.
I was after a biased view on Land Rovers

[V8Ian]

Td300 D1: Simple, reliable minimum electrickery.
Td5 D2: Slightly more sparky bits, but not overly complex, a Nanocom can do much of the thinking for you.
D3 and 4 scare me to death. A not uncommon, random engine failure can quickly ruin you day and financial situation.
Just my thoughts.

[Saitch]

I have a 2.7 D3, know/known people with cross section D2s, and have had a D1 Tdi.

For comfort and towing, the D3 is perfect. For very good towing and comfort, the D2. For adequate towing and comfort, the D1, although the D1 seats are hard to beat, in my opinion.

From your list of usages and if I was in your position, a well maintained D1 Tdi would be my choice.

Whack on some Bilstein shocks and King springs and away you go!

[Tins]

I was after a biased view on Land Rovers

You've come to the right place. Do you need it to be diesel? V8 D3s are pretty good. I personally would stick with the D3, petrol or diesel, if I was going to move up, but that's just me. If you drive one of the 3s or 4s you won't want anything else, so be warned.

But, as Steve says, a good D1 is hard to beat. Even my not so good one was great. TDis are a little slow towing, but you can play with the tuning yourself, as long as you have an EGT gauge.

[scarry]

Td300 D1: Simple, reliable minimum electrickery.
Td5 D2: Slightly more sparky bits, but not overly complex, a Nanocom can do much of the thinking for you.
D3 and 4 scare me to death. A not uncommon, random engine failure can quickly ruin you day and financial situation.
Just my thoughts.

What Ian said,for D3/4,it is not just engines that cause issues.
If you can't do the work yourself,maybe give the brand a miss,if you can,and can afford to have the vehicle off the road every so often,then give one a go.
Not much around rides and handles like a D3/4.
We had one for 9 1/2 yrs,so have some experience with them,and D2s for 15 yrs.
The D2 is still a great vehicle,but they are getting pretty old,and don't have the ride and handling of a D3/4.But simpler and generally easier to repair.
The D3/4 are also getting on a bit,so repairs will be needed.

[d1disco]

Thanks for the words of advice.
I'm not incapable of working on the car, don't mind a bit of youtube, and actually with my neighbours, and mates up the road, I'm sure between us, we could really get what ever needed doing done.

It used to be a time thing, but i'm more willing to make time these days.

In regards to the V8s, what would be the advantage of the V8 be over the diesel?

is the 3.0L TDV6 preferred over the 2.7TDV6?

I've looked at the option of an engine swap also. Which would make the D3/D4 better options?
For those in NSW i'm looking at being able to cruise around places like Bendethra, Putty Adventure Park, Wee Jasper and places like these. Nothing extreme, but not smooth sailing either.
I would like to do longer trips, at some point, like the Cape, and victorian Highlands.

I need to do some more viewing on the forum in regards to the different series.

[AK83]

Loved my 300tdi, which I only recently sold.
Electronics of the later models worried me back when I wanted to buy it, why I passed on a D2 or D3 back then.

Brother bought his D2TD5(now mine). Took about a year to get it reliable to the point I now trust it to not let me down.
He got himself a newer vehicle about 2020ish and kind'a gave up on the D2, so I took it off him. Because it cost so much(mainly misdiagnosis) but even then parts that did fail did cost a bit.
Suspension was totally shot, and it rode like it compared to the D1. I changed to Les Richmond springs and bilsteins and a few other rubber bits down there(still have to change all the major bushes) and completely changed the way it now rides.
I think the major issue down there is the watts link bushes.

So I've had it 5 years, not far off 100K klms I've done and the only problem it gave me was my misdiagnosis of a rear noisy wheel bearing, where in fact it was a front drivers. I could hear the noise, couldn't feel it through the wheel nor get it to wobble via jimmy bar at the wheel. But it totally collapsed and had to get it towed!
Once the electronics have been sorted D2 can be just as reliable.

I used the tdi to tow the D2 home and back then the turbo was on the way out. It's all flat out here and the D1 struggled to get to 80k/h. [bigrolf] Anyhow turbo cartridge changed and it did drive better, but compared to a Td5, a tdi will struggle a lot more when towing for sure.

Like Saitch said tho, D1 seats a heaps more comfy, but D2 seats are still Ok. I say that from the perspective of having a buggered right knee, and I need underthigh support from the seat, or my knee gets sharp pains. In the D1 I can sit with leg resting on cushion for hours on end no worries. In the D2 the seat base is shorter so I usually end up with cruise on and sitting with my right leg pulled back(ie. off the seat base). FWIW, I have two peugeots too, and have to drive them the same way as the D2. D1 has the more comfy seat there.
In the end I had to let the D1 go. I drive it 1000klms in over a year, mainly because the D2 drives a bit better, despite the seat.

If you do go for a D2, something to watch for is that about 2002-ish, LR did remove the locking mechanism on the transfer box and relied only on traction control. So not only do you not have easy central diff locking, where some earlier models have the mechanism, just no lever to do it ... the last of the pre update models had no mechanism at all(mine is like that). I have to change out the nose cone on the transfer case to get these mechanisms if I want diff lock there.

The better D2 are the D2a, but then they come with the issue that front and rear lights are hard to come by and more expensive, but if you want locking centre diff, its all there! [thumbsupbig] But because of the lights 'issue' can be harder to get a roadworthy if there are cracks that the mechanic complains about.

Also, Td5 can be made to be more than adequately powerful/torquey enough to pull a trailer with a remap. Tdi can also be made a bit more powerful, but takes some time to tweak, unless you have access to a dyno.

I don't think durability is about being made on a friday or monday issue, it's about how have the previous owners looked after it?

I have one 'made on friday/monday' trouble maker(V8 D2 with dead engine) but all other D2s I have, or have experience with to date, have been more about previous owner care. Did they care about reliability or pose factor?

[Saitch]

Thanks for the words of advice.
I'm not incapable of working on the car, don't mind a bit of youtube, and actually with my neighbours, and mates up the road, I'm sure between us, we could really get what ever needed doing done.

It used to be a time thing, but i'm more willing to make time these days.

In regards to the V8s, what would be the advantage of the V8 be over the diesel?

is the 3.0L TDV6 preferred over the 2.7TDV6?

I've looked at the option of an engine swap also. Which would make the D3/D4 better options?
For those in NSW i'm looking at being able to cruise around places like Bendethra, Putty Adventure Park, Wee Jasper and places like these. Nothing extreme, but not smooth sailing either.
I would like to do longer trips, at some point, like the Cape, and victorian Highlands.

I need to do some more viewing on the forum in regards to the different series.

I did the VHC in2007. In 2005, Sandover H'way, Gibb, Gunbarrel, Simmo and a lot of tracks in between, all in the D1. Nary an issue. (One slow release puncture)

I'd be ****tin' bricks the whole way, if I did it again in the D3.

I love to drive it and it has never let me down, but......

EDIT: I threw a tranny cooler on the D1, for towing.

[Tombie]

Never doubted my 2.7 D4...

Always serviced properly (by me), always maintained - not repaired....

I'll take it anywhere, anytime, with utmost confidence.

[DieselLSE]

Never doubted my 2.7 D4...

Always serviced properly (by me), always maintained - not repaired....

I'll take it anywhere, anytime, with utmost confidence.
+1 (2013 3.0 TDV6)

[Saitch]

Never doubted my 2.7 D4...

Always serviced properly (by me), always maintained - not repaired....

I'll take it anywhere, anytime, with utmost confidence.

I understand what you're saying, Tombie, but my D1 had over 400,000k on it, with only fair wear and tear issues. Do you think that's possible with a D3/D4, even with good maintenance? (Which mine gets)

I just had to do the tranny on the D3, at 220,000k. Never had to touch the D1, apart from a radiator replacement at around 390,000k.

[Tombie]

Yeah I do. Plenty now getting into high 400s+
Comparing a D1 to a 3/4 is a challenge.

A tdi D1 couldn’t pull a skin off a custard,and if you go too fast on rough terrain your backside spins suggests you slow down. Ride wise - Same for D2 or older Defenders.


Then you get into a D3/4: glide over the harshest correlations at speeds well above what you would otherwise do in the earlier units because it feels so composed. All the while underneath it’s working hard to keep that ride!

Example: I went to Maralinga, along the rail corridor. Then out at Emu and back to the ‘Pede.

12 vehicles in group. I stop for 15 min to take some photos etc and group keep moving. Jump back in D4 and notify leader I’m mobile. Call comes back “take it easy, it’s terrible, we’re down to 60km/h it’s that rough up ahead”.

In the meantime, I’m on a hand free call to another Aulro member, having a chat, doing 120km/h and he couldn’t hear it, and I couldn’t feel it!


Now that sort of stuff works a vehicle hard. And The 3/4 will soak up a lot of that, until one day you need new bushes/shocks because they have worked harder than the earlier models ever would - if I’d tried that in my D1/D2/110 I’d have ploughed into a tree off the side of the track!

At the end of several thousand kilometres on that trip, the only vehicle to not suffer a single issue was the D4. The Toyotas, Nissans, Hyundai! a Holden and the Ford all had failures requiring track side repairs.

I’ve since done 225,000km and not once has it let me down. You just have to understand that everything is working harder if you use it to its capability and that requires maintenance.

I replaced all suspension at 160,000km. It was all ok - shocks were tired though.
I changed hoses and plastics last year - again good practice.
And I fully service the cooling system every year - it’s cheaper than a water pump or other failures.

[loanrangie]

Towing anything over a ton don't expect a TDI D1 to get anywhere in a hurry, loved my old D1 TDI auto but the D3 does double the speed with double the weight and you wont even know its there. At this age a good D2 would be the oldest Disco i would buy, good D1's are getting very hard to find.

[V8Ian]

Never doubted my 2.7 D4...

Always serviced properly (by me), always maintained - not repaired....

I'll take it anywhere, anytime, with utmost confidence.
But can you guarantee that it won't randomly break a crank?
Granted, any motor can break a crank, but some D3/4s seem to do it too often at relatively low kilometres, regardless of maintenance.
regime.
As if that were not bad enough, JLR refuse to acknowledge any issues.

[Tombie]

But can you guarantee that it won't randomly break a crank?
Granted, any motor can break a crank, but some D3/4s seem to do it too often at relatively low kilometres, regardless of maintenance.
regime.
As if that were not bad enough, JLR refuse to acknowledge any issues.

Within reason, yes. The D4 2.7 is a very reliable engine.

The 3.0 failures are not as prolific as envisioned. It’s saturation in forums that makes it seem worse than it is.

LRs recorded failure rate (in warranty is the measure car makers use) is a fraction of a percent. Globally the engines failure rate is still below that.

Plenty of TD5s did heads (from memory so did V8s and tdi’s)


There’s stacks of 3.0 going well over 300k.

What becomes an unknown is when you aren’t the first owner (or you serviced to standard schedule and not the arduous one). And don’t get me started on tight arse owners putting pattern parts and using the cheapest spares out there!

[TonyC]

I replaced all suspension at 160,000km. It was all ok - shocks were tired though.
I changed hoses and plastics last year - again good practice.
And I fully service the cooling system every year - it’s cheaper than a water pump or other failures.

Tombie,

What mileage did you do the hoses and plastics? And what state were they in?

When say you fully service the cooling system yearly, what do you do/replace?

Still getting my head around what I might do as a service schedule from mine.

Thanks

Tony

[V8Ian]

Not just Discos, it seems.


https://youtu.be/NTwJ13pMfCM?si=Bn7AKlhxUPDkaxu0

[d1disco]

Ok, so i am thinking of a D3 or D4.
I know there are more electrics, but i'm going to have the same issues with any "new" car anyway.
I like the idea of a bit more grunt if i'm going to be towing, and it at least appears the D3/D4 has a bit more space in the back than my old D1. Although the things I could fit in there vertically was amazing.
I was concerened about the crank issue with the D3/D4. I suppose less with the fact it could happen, but more the cost of a replacement engine. Although I have heard Nissan are now at $40k for replacement diesel engine for their earlier Patrols... so LR doesn't seem quite as bad.
The other thing I had, was wheel size, I never wanted to go out there and run 35s etc like others do on their biggers wagons, i did like the idea of a bit more tyre wall, and presumably the ability to run lower pressures in the tyres.
I made the assumption that the D3/4 didn't need to run pressures quite as low?

I suppose, if i'm getting one, it's going through the log book of the previous owner/s, seeing what has been done, and make sure i stay on a strict 5-10k service interval.
I know a 2 guys at work have them, and one in particular loves his. He's onto his 2nd, gave the first to the inlaws after he put petrol in the diesel. that was a few years ago, got it going and it still hasn't missed a beat.
While i'm concerned, i'm also thinking that maybe these are a little bit precious, and regular TLC rather than neglect and they will run a treat.

[AK83]

Ok, so i am thinking of a D3 or D4.
.....
I was concerened about the crank issue with the D3/D4. I suppose less with the fact it could happen, but more the cost of a replacement engine. Although I have heard Nissan are now at $40k for replacement diesel engine for their earlier Patrols... so LR doesn't seem quite as bad.
The other thing I had, was wheel size, I never wanted to go out there and run 35s etc like others do on their biggers wagons, i did like the idea of a bit more tyre wall, and presumably the ability to run lower pressures in the tyres.
I made the assumption that the D3/4 didn't need to run pressures quite as low?

.....

Don't worry about the electronics, I was same until the D2. Just keep in mind that as part of the cost of the vehicle you should get yourself a good diagnostics tool for it. They sound expensive, but diagnosing yourself is where you save $s!!
And almost everyone says that the GAP tool is the one for D3/4 model era.

Part of the problem(for me) with new cars is the tendency for car makers to require the use of a diagnostic tool to replace parts in the car.
As an example, some cars need a diagnostic tool just to change the battery! It's just stupid(IMO).

I had this issue with my little Peugeot. I have a diagnostic tool(Autel) works well for my needs, but I think I'll get something a bit more pro in the future. Anyhow, turns out the fuel pressure sensor was kaput. The Autel diagnosed this no worries. sensor only cost about $40. Fitted sensor .. still same problem. Car would die when accelerated. Took me a while to work it out, then found the parts replacement menu in the Autel and found the sensor listed and etc...
The problem is when you don't know this stuff is the painful part.

Also, if you are keen on a D3 diesel, search for LR Time on youtube and watch their vids. Tons of info and not just typed words! They put out vids every Sunday and the last one, 28/9, will address any concerns you have on a D3.

Oh! and on the topic of service histories and receipts ... for me they are better hung of the dunny wall in some instances.
Nephew got himself a nice TD5 D2. Had lots of receipts with it. One of them was for a AMC head replacement by a well known mechanic mob.
Turns out it needed a head due to cooling issues. He replace head with a good second hand one. Car goes no problem now. He was going to dump the old head, but I kept it. Turns out this so called AMC head is the original head that came on the car! has the original LR stamping on it from 2003. (ie. there's no way it's an AMC that was supposed to have been replace in 2018!!)

[Saitch]

Yeah I do. Plenty now getting into high 400s+
Comparing a D1 to a 3/4 is a challenge.

A tdi D1 couldn’t pull a skin off a custard,and if you go too fast on rough terrain your backside spins suggests you slow down. Ride wise - Same for D2 or older Defenders.


Then you get into a D3/4: glide over the harshest correlations at speeds well above what you would otherwise do in the earlier units because it feels so composed. All the while underneath it’s working hard to keep that ride!

Example: I went to Maralinga, along the rail corridor. Then out at Emu and back to the ‘Pede.

12 vehicles in group. I stop for 15 min to take some photos etc and group keep moving. Jump back in D4 and notify leader I’m mobile. Call comes back “take it easy, it’s terrible, we’re down to 60km/h it’s that rough up ahead”.

In the meantime, I’m on a hand free call to another Aulro member, having a chat, doing 120km/h and he couldn’t hear it, and I couldn’t feel it!


Now that sort of stuff works a vehicle hard. And The 3/4 will soak up a lot of that, until one day you need new bushes/shocks because they have worked harder than the earlier models ever would - if I’d tried that in my D1/D2/110 I’d have ploughed into a tree off the side of the track!

At the end of several thousand kilometres on that trip, the only vehicle to not suffer a single issue was the D4. The Toyotas, Nissans, Hyundai! a Holden and the Ford all had failures requiring track side repairs.

I’ve since done 225,000km and not once has it let me down. You just have to understand that everything is working harder if you use it to its capability and that requires maintenance.

I replaced all suspension at 160,000km. It was all ok - shocks were tired though.
I changed hoses and plastics last year - again good practice.
And I fully service the cooling system every year - it’s cheaper than a water pump or other failures.

You're making me feel a little better, Tombie........................just a little, mind![biggrin]

[loanrangie]

Ok, so i am thinking of a D3 or D4.
I know there are more electrics, but i'm going to have the same issues with any "new" car anyway.
I like the idea of a bit more grunt if i'm going to be towing, and it at least appears the D3/D4 has a bit more space in the back than my old D1. Although the things I could fit in there vertically was amazing.
I was concerened about the crank issue with the D3/D4. I suppose less with the fact it could happen, but more the cost of a replacement engine. Although I have heard Nissan are now at $40k for replacement diesel engine for their earlier Patrols... so LR doesn't seem quite as bad.
The other thing I had, was wheel size, I never wanted to go out there and run 35s etc like others do on their biggers wagons, i did like the idea of a bit more tyre wall, and presumably the ability to run lower pressures in the tyres.
I made the assumption that the D3/4 didn't need to run pressures quite as low?

I suppose, if i'm getting one, it's going through the log book of the previous owner/s, seeing what has been done, and make sure i stay on a strict 5-10k service interval.
I know a 2 guys at work have them, and one in particular loves his. He's onto his 2nd, gave the first to the inlaws after he put petrol in the diesel. that was a few years ago, got it going and it still hasn't missed a beat.
While i'm concerned, i'm also thinking that maybe these are a little bit precious, and regular TLC rather than neglect and they will run a treat.

I went from 98 TDI auto D1 to TDV6 D3 and i did lots of research before i took the plunge, i was initially concerned about the electrics and other complex systems but the more i read the better i understood them.
Space in the D3/4 is amazing and they really do swallow a whole lot of gear especially with the middle row seats folded flat.
You still want to lower the pressures if going off-road and at least you can get decent rubber in 18" and if you get a petrol V6 or TDV6 you can run 17" rims and fit a 70 profile tire.

[BradC]

Mum had a 93 D1 Tdi which I loved, but drove a bit like an oil tanker and wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding. She had that until 2010 when it snapped the locating pin on the crank nose. We bought our D3 in 2017. There's no comparison. The D3 is a better car in every possible metric except reliability.

If I knew in 2017 what I've learned in the last 8 years we'd have bought a V8 HSE instead. Having said that, the 2.7 in the D3 isn't known for snapping cranks (well, maybe except ours) and the 2.7 in the D4 has a well deserved reputation for reliability.

The D3 hasn't broken down on us since 2019 (when I took over servicing it). Up to that point it had done both EGR's, DPF, Turbo, the HPFP, handbrake module, crankshaft and then the misc maintenance items (suspension and all that).

The only major item I've had done in the last 6 years was the clutch earlier this year, and that's because it was shagged after 250kks of abuse and I felt too old, fat and lazy to pull the gearbox/transfer case myself.

You'd be hard pushed to beat a 3/4, but personally I'd stay away from the 3.0. I reckon if you can find a relatively low k's 4 with the 2.7, go for it. They're worth **** all now and getting more plentiful by the month.

[d1disco]

I was having a gander at carsales last night. It was actually quite amazing the price range for the D4. From low teens all the way up to 50-60k.
Some were decked out with camping gear, and less than 100k on the clock.
in the 10-20k mark there were a good mixture of everything.
I think I have a plan, just need to get it past the minister of war and finance.
Which ever model i get, is it going to be worth, for peace of mind, getting someone to pull the motor apart and do a rebuild?
Along with doing the greasing of the input and output shafts from the TC.

Are there any other suggestions of things I should do regardless of what the previous owner says they have done?

[DoubleChevron]

I was having a gander at carsales last night. It was actually quite amazing the price range for the D4. From low teens all the way up to 50-60k.
Some were decked out with camping gear, and less than 100k on the clock.
in the 10-20k mark there were a good mixture of everything.
I think I have a plan, just need to get it past the minister of war and finance.
Which ever model i get, is it going to be worth, for peace of mind, getting someone to pull the motor apart and do a rebuild?
Along with doing the greasing of the input and output shafts from the TC.

Are there any other suggestions of things I should do regardless of what the previous owner says they have done?

Why not buy one with low milage rather than rebuilding a motor that could be good? I just think, the more someone works on a car, often the more issues you have until its all sorted.

If I had to buy a modern car, I'd probably find the most reliable version of the range rover from around 2010 -> 2015..... I'd go for the most reliable, lowest milage version I can find. If that turns out to be a V8 petrol, well I guess my running costs will be high .... but I don't want modern diesel with all the complication of add blue .... or the Citroen/Poogoe/Ford V6 diesel that is a problem waiting to happen.

I would also need to cater for the servicing requirements. A lot of these modern cars appear to need the body lifted for some normal maintenance tasks. So I would also add the cost of installing a 2post hoist into my shed as a part of the cost of the car.

seeya
Shane L.

[d1disco]

So was puttering around car sales and came across the below.

carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2010-land-rover-discovery-4-tdv6-auto-4x4-my10/OAG-AD-25312478/?Cr=0)

[d1disco]

So was puttering around car sales and came across the below.

carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2010-land-rover-discovery-4-tdv6-auto-4x4-my10/OAG-AD-25312478/?Cr=0)

Was this anyone's here? Can anyone shed some more light on it?

[loanrangie]

So was puttering around car sales and came across the below.

carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2010-land-rover-discovery-4-tdv6-auto-4x4-my10/OAG-AD-25312478/?Cr=0)

I saw that i thought it would be good buying for the price.

[d1disco]

I would likely pull off at least one of the rear wheel carriers for normal usage.
But yeah for the price seemed like a good deal. Just wanting to see if there had been any other insider knowledge on this machine, in case I should stay away from it haha

But it would seem our 2nd car is deciding it doesn't like life any more, and with the anticipation of replacing it this year anyway, it seemed prudent to start looking, and that one looked decent.
May check it out over the weekend if it doesn't go before then.
Just wish my mechanic was back so i could get him to check out the current beast and help us make up our mind.

[loanrangie]

I would likely pull off at least one of the rear wheel carriers for normal usage.
But yeah for the price seemed like a good deal. Just wanting to see if there had been any other insider knowledge on this machine, in case I should stay away from it haha

But it would seem our 2nd car is deciding it doesn't like life any more, and with the anticipation of replacing it this year anyway, it seemed prudent to start looking, and that one looked decent.
May check it out over the weekend if it doesn't go before then.
Just wish my mechanic was back so i could get him to check out the current beast and help us make up our mind.

The rear bar and drawers take away a lot of the ball weight so you need to take that into consideration if you plan on towing, 2-2.5T should be ok though.

[d1disco]

Judging by the set up, i'm going to assume that it's been used a lot offroad (touring) and towing. So i wonder the condition of the gearbox and some of the other suspension parts.
Is this a genuine concern?

At the moment, the trailer/van i want to tow the ATM is 2T. So I shouldn't have too many issues there, but i am paranoid about the weights, and will be checking all the weights etc

[loanrangie]

Judging by the set up, i'm going to assume that it's been used a lot offroad (touring) and towing. So i wonder the condition of the gearbox and some of the other suspension parts.
Is this a genuine concern?

At the moment, the trailer/van i want to tow the ATM is 2T. So I shouldn't have too many issues there, but i am paranoid about the weights, and will be checking all the weights etc

Suspension isnt a big issue, bushes wear on these and air struts last about 180-200k, gearbox you hope its been serviced and if it doesn't shift like melting butter then walk away.