D2 front shockers - replacing bushings after 340,000 km's

[Campaspe Man]

My '99 D2 Td5 is now a little over 340,000 kms. At a recent tyre change I was told that the lower bushings on the front shockers are cracked and need replacing. The funny thing is that a week or so prior, I (probably stupidly) switched the front shockers from my donor vehicle that has (only) done something over 200,000 kms (after feeling certain something was awry with my front shockers).

Anyway, it seems like both sets of front shockers are original and don't appear to have any oil leaks... and they seem to take a reasonable amount of effort to re-stretch after compression.

So, my questions are:
1/ is it crazy to stick with the original shockers at this stage, and just replace the lower bushings?
2/ If not crazy, any advice whether using the Land Rover bushings (about $72 each) is a must, or are the 'generics' (at about $27 ea) ok to use?

An add-on question concerns some uneven tread wear on the inside (front tyres). Could this be due to the bushings being worn, or is it more likely a toe-in adjustment issue?

Thanks as always for any advice.

Myles

[AK83]

I'd use whatever I can get for the shock bushes.

Any irregularities in the steering? wobbles at certain speeds, or pulling one way or the other?

Cause of uneven tyre wear could be under-inflation, ball joints or wheel alignment.
Worn leading arm bushes can also affect tyre wear.

but all of those would affect steering in some way.

[Slunnie]

My '99 D2 Td5 is now a little over 340,000 kms. At a recent tyre change I was told that the lower bushings on the front shockers are cracked and need replacing. The funny thing is that a week or so prior, I (probably stupidly) switched the front shockers from my donor vehicle that has (only) done something over 200,000 kms (after feeling certain something was awry with my front shockers).

Anyway, it seems like both sets of front shockers are original and don't appear to have any oil leaks... and they seem to take a reasonable amount of effort to re-stretch after compression.

So, my questions are:
1/ is it crazy to stick with the original shockers at this stage, and just replace the lower bushings?
2/ If not crazy, any advice whether using the Land Rover bushings (about $72 each) is a must, or are the 'generics' (at about $27 ea) ok to use?

An add-on question concerns some uneven tread wear on the inside (front tyres). Could this be due to the bushings being worn, or is it more likely a toe-in adjustment issue?

Thanks as always for any advice.

Myles

My thoughts are, if the shocks are still working then there isn't any problem in using them until they don't.

In terms of genuine or generic bushes, well you know that genuine always work and work properly in every respect. You also know that you will put another 200-300,000km on them. Some shock bushes slide all over the place on the T-bar, others flog out really quickly in the mud.

These days where possible I'm doing everything to buy either genuine, the OEM and as a last resort aftermarket - unless it is a known upgrade part compared to OE.

The treadwear will be toe, however there are a few things that can cause that such as parts wear. They alignment adjustment doesn't tend to just slowly go out - it is whats set, but ball joints, King pin bearings, wheel bearings all wear. I find my Disco2 is abnormally easy on tyres and it doesn't get babied around.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

My defender has 180k, and I've been through the original shocks which are probably still quite good, and three sets of bilsteins and replacement bushes. I'm now on a set of Koni Raids.. they seem to be still going ok but I suspect the bushes might need replacement at the rear.

So I'm pretty impressed by how long you've got out of yours!

[Slunnie]

My defender has 180k, and I've been through the original shocks which are probably still quite good, and three sets of bilsteins and replacement bushes. I'm now on a set of Koni Raids.. they seem to be still going ok but I suspect the bushes might need replacement at the rear.

So I'm pretty impressed by how long you've got out of yours!

I'm impressed by how quickly you destroy yours. What happened to the Bilsteins? Mine have been in since 2004 and are still going.

[Campaspe Man]

Thanks very much for the advice Arthur and Slunnie.

Believe it or not, I replaced the upper and lower ball joints a couple of years ago, and they still seem to be fine (they'd better be, as doing those again would be more than a pain).

I'm obviously going to have to try to look much more closely at all the bushes and the like for wear.

One observation this evening is that I can twist/rotate the drag link pretty easily just by holding the bar in my hand. Does this seem right? I can't see any splits in the rubber, but there is definitely plenty of up and down movement. I did the same movement on the 2004 D2, and I could move it, but less. I then tried the donor D2, and no movement at all! (But it is on chocks at the front, under the Watts links - I can't see how that would make a difference, but what would I know).

Thoughts??

So, on my last trip down the freeway to the big smoke, I did notice some vibrations which I've never had before. I also felt like the front rocked side to side when stopping at traffic lights... this got me thinking about the shockers.

The other thing I noticed a few weeks ago was that my steering wheel is slightly to the left when driving at speed. I thought that's strange, maybe I've just never noticed! Now I'm wondering if it is another sign of defunctness somewhere?

As for getting a wheel alignment done, any advice? My local tyre shop is unenthusiastic.

Thanks again,
Myles

[Campaspe Man]

My defender has 180k, and I've been through the original shocks which are probably still quite good, and three sets of bilsteins and replacement bushes. I'm now on a set of Koni Raids.. they seem to be still going ok but I suspect the bushes might need replacement at the rear.

So I'm pretty impressed by how long you've got out of yours!

Well, I think they are original...

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'm impressed by how quickly you destroy yours. What happened to the Bilsteins? Mine have been in since 2004 and are still going.
I don't really drive around town so whenever they get used it's hard going. In fairness though they were only the cheap bilesteins. They just stop working after a trip or two. They probably only do a couple of hard trips and after that they are probably ok when the car is empty but they just can't control the car loaded up on rough terrain..

They also do really good shocks? B60? I'm sure they would be good.

The Koni Raids were several times more expensive but replacing cheap bilsteins every few trips was expensive too. So far the konis have done 4 desert trips and nearly a month or so on fraser and still going good.

I found out after I bought the konis that the people who run Beadell tours rate the konis. I can find that up for you if you want.

[AK83]

my gut feeling would be that they're less likely the actual originals, and more likely they've been replaced with either genuine or OEM shocks at some point.

I'm fairly sure that Armstrong are the manufacturer that LR used for many many years for shocks on their vehicles. And they work really well as far as std manufacturer suspension bits go.

[Campaspe Man]

One observation this evening is that I can twist/rotate the drag link pretty easily just by holding the bar in my hand. Does this seem right? I can't see any splits in the rubber, but there is definitely plenty of up and down movement. I did the same movement on the 2004 D2, and I could move it, but less. I then tried the donor D2, and no movement at all! (But it is on chocks at the front, under the Watts links - I can't see how that would make a difference, but what would I know).

Thoughts??

So, on my last trip down the freeway to the big smoke, I did notice some vibrations which I've never had before. I also felt like the front rocked side to side when stopping at traffic lights... this got me thinking about the shockers.

The other thing I noticed a few weeks ago was that my steering wheel is slightly to the left when driving at speed. I thought that's strange, maybe I've just never noticed it! Now I'm wondering if it is another sign of defunctness somewhere?

As for getting a wheel alignment done, any advice? My local tyre shop is unenthusiastic.



Just wondering if there are any thoughts on the drag link and wheel alignment issues mentioned above? Please and thank you!

Myles

[AK83]

......

One observation this evening is that I can twist/rotate the drag link pretty easily just by holding the bar in my hand. Does this seem right? I can't see any splits in the rubber, but there is definitely plenty of up and down movement. I did the same movement on the 2004 D2, and I could move it, but less. I then tried the donor D2, and no movement at all! (But it is on chocks at the front, under the Watts links - I can't see how that would make a difference, but what would I know).

Thoughts??

......

This is normal from under the car doing the check. When new tie rod ends will be tighter and require more force to twist. As they age, this gets easier. If they're a bit old and don't have any movement, I'd worry that they're seized up completely.

if you can grab yourself a lackie!! ... you'll be under the car and they will be inside turning the stg wheel left right in about 1/2 to 1/4 turns continuously and you will be watching for any slack between the trackrod and the steering knuckle arm movements.
That is, watch both drag link and pass side knuckle for movement. If the drag link moves a teeny bit but there is a slight slack/delay in the knuckle arm, then the tie rod is worn. Same for track rod.

You can have easy rotation movement in the tie rod, but its still tight enough between rod and knuckle.

Any slack in the tie rod end is usually felt as a wobble, death wobble, etc. if the steering damper is also worn just get more wobbles.
Steering damper is best taken off and push or pull it to be in it's central extended position. Then push-pull it at that point, only by a few cm, and if that has any slackness or loose play then it's stuffed. Don't need to fully compress/extend it to do this check.

if you require any tie rod end replacements, I've found that not only is the aftermarket heavy duty bars cheaper overall, but they're also more durable ... and more importantly they use all separate tie rod end joints.
The original set up on the D2(D1 is different) IIRC, only two of the tie rod ends are separate items, and the other two are crimped onto the bars.
So that if the crimped tie rods is worn, you can't replace the joint, you got to get the entire bar(ie. more expensive).

I had a set of these 'heavy duty' bars(both) off ebay for under $300. Can't recall the brand, but looks to be Britpart -ish.
had it on car now for a few thousand klms and rod ends still feel good. Only problem with them is the rubber cover can split so quickly on some. Rubber covers are both cheap and easy to source from Repco/SC/auto stores.

Only annoyance I found with installing them is the 'wrong way around config' of the stg damper bracket. The original uses a welded bracket(ie. easy peasy). Aftermarket type commonly found uses a clamped bracket setup. You have to find the centre of the damper and then set it up to clamp the bracket onto the drag link. Problem is when you try to fit the 4 nuts-bolts the bolts are long and the design doesn't allow a lot of arc to tighten the nuts bolts. They take an excruciating long time to tighten down.

[Campaspe Man]

Thanks very much Arthur, the detailed description is very helpful. I'll get my lackie behind the steering wheel tomorrow, and report back!

[Campaspe Man]

Well, I replaced the front bushes on the front shocks and reinstalled same. I've followed Arthur's instructions, and with the help of Mrs Lackie on the wheel, inspected the tie rod ends, and the damper. Everything seemed pretty good to me, but for reassurance I asked the assistant to conduct and independent inspection... she queried one end of the track rod, but on further consultation we agreed it seems fine.

Test drive went well.

Now that I have new tyres on the front, I'm concerned to make sure the toe adjustment is correct (given the history of inside wearing). Should I try to have an alignment done at the local tyre shop (they weren't too keen), or should I start with the string method I've seen mentioned?

I've looked at this thread - Disco 2 wheel alignment specifications (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2-a/75964-disco-2-wheel-alignment-specifications.html) - and note the comments about 0-2mm max toe-out. What is the aim? Dead straight, or slightly out? Or am I interpreting this incorrectly?

Any thoughts on the LR recommended tyre pressures for the '99 D2 - IIRC - 28psi front/ 36+ rear? I usually go a touch over 28 at the front and 35/36 rear - especially as I drive a lot on gravel with pot holes...

Cheers,
Myles

[Slunnie]

I would get a wheel alignment shop to do it. They can also tweak it based on the way your tyres are wearing.

My Audi was really hard on front outer shoulders and I had to drive it so gently with higher pressures not to chop them out. All good now.

My Disco2, it doesn't matter how hard it gets flogged, the tyres always wear evenly.

I don't run 28psi in the front because it generates a lot of push in the front. 30 is marginal, 32 is good without getting harsh. Rears I run 34 to keep it soft. If I'm doing long highway runs (I live rural NSW) then I up them to F36/R38 to make them roll better. I'm on a dirt driveway and we've got loads of potholes too.

[Reddirt204]

I would get a wheel alignment shop to do it. They can also tweak it based on the way your tyres are wearing.

My Audi was really hard on front outer shoulders and I had to drive it so gently with higher pressures not to chop them out. All good now.

My Disco2, it doesn't matter how hard it gets flogged, the tyres always wear evenly.

I don't run 28psi in the front because it generates a lot of push in the front. 30 is marginal, 32 is good without getting harsh. Rears I run 34 to keep it soft. If I'm doing long highway runs (I live rural NSW) then I up them to F36/R38 to make them roll better. I'm on a dirt driveway and we've got loads of potholes too.

Without hijacking this thread....

Slunnie, do you think those pressures would apply regardless of size? The reason I'm asking is my sons D2a runs 256/75/16 mud terrains and I run 267/70/17 BGF AT's. I think I currently run about 40 all round, wear seems pretty even, but might be a little harsh on the crappy roads around here

any input greatly appreciated

Cheers

Redd

[Slunnie]

Without hijacking this thread....

Slunnie, do you think those pressures would apply regardless of size? The reason I'm asking is my sons D2a runs 256/75/16 mud terrains and I run 267/70/17 BGF AT's. I think I currently run about 40 all round, wear seems pretty even, but might be a little harsh on the crappy roads around here

any input greatly appreciated

Cheers

Redd

I think the tyre size and carcass makes a difference but I think you will find very similar with the tyre sizes I think you're running. I'm on 285/75-16.

I think 40 is very high, although you might run that in the rear when towing.

[scarry]

FWIW,I ran 35 to 36PSI all round, on our D2s,BFG A/T,stock size.
They always wore well,often getting 80 to 90,000Km out of a set.

Corrugations,sand,etc lowered to suit.

Front shocks were usually shagged at around 160,000Km,and front springs stuffed as well.
Replaced with Kings and Bilstein shocks,all good.

[johnp38]

Any thoughts on the LR recommended tyre pressures for the '99 D2 - IIRC - 28psi front/ 36+ rear? I usually go a touch over 28 at the front and 35/36 rear - especially as I drive a lot on gravel with pot holes...

Cheers,
Myles

If you're running anything other than an equivalent grade of tyre than what came from factory the best thing is to go to that brands website and get their tyre table info, when you look at the lowest weight capacity of that tyre it will have the lowest pressure you should be running at to keep the sidewall bulge/tyre heat in design specs, after that it will list each incremental weight increase and its corresponding tyre pressure.

My Toyo Open Country goes from 35 to 80 psi, there is no lower pressure specified for it and if I drop them to 28 the ride goes all wishy washy and steering like a barge, at 80psi without any load I might as well be driving on the rim.

[Campaspe Man]

If you're running anything other than an equivalent grade of tyre than what came from factory the best thing is to go to that brands website and get their tyre table info, when you look at the lowest weight capacity of that tyre it will have the lowest pressure you should be running at to keep the sidewall bulge/tyre heat in design specs, after that it will list each incremental weight increase and its corresponding tyre pressure.

My Toyo Open Country goes from 35 to 80 psi, there is no lower pressure specified for it and if I drop them to 28 the ride goes all wishy washy and steering like a barge, at 80psi without any load I might as well be driving on the rim.

Thanks John (and also all the other ideas and advice in this thread).
I'm running Cooper AT3's - so I'm assuming these would be pretty close to equivalent of the original..?? That said, I went to the Cooper website, but couldn't locate the sort of detail you refer to above. There was however quite a bit of general advice for different conditions, including the advice that older cars calling for inflation below 30 psi should not be followed. So that's interesting. I think, given my day to day mix of rough gravel and tarmac, 32 at the front and higher at rear - pretty much as Slunnie said.

Cheers,
Myles

[V8Ian]

Car manufacturers recommend the lower end, to give the car a better ride. Tyre manufacturers recommend the higher end, to extend tyre life.
Most tyre retailers go for 40 psi in all 4x4 regardless of weight or size.

[Slunnie]

I’m pretty certain Land Rover recommended an unusually low front pressure to increase stability with under steer. The Disco2 rear is pretty hard to control because of the weight on the rear axle and the overhung weight - which is why rear shocks need to be unusually stiff to control it all. A pushy front is a dodge to mask the rear if the rear is not stable. I think its also why they recommend going straight to 40-42psi when towing, to prevent yaw from the trailer push working the tyre carcass laterally - the high pressure makes it feel more stable.

[Campaspe Man]

I’m pretty certain Land Rover recommended an unusually low front pressure to increase stability with under steer. The Disco2 rear is pretty hard to control because of the weight on the rear axle and the overhung weight - which is why rear shocks need to be unusually stiff to control it all. A pushy front is a dodge to mask the rear if the rear is not stable. I think its also why they recommend going straight to 40-42psi when towing, to prevent yaw from the trailer push working the tyre carcass laterally - the high pressure makes it feel more stable.

Thanks Slunnie, very interesting to read. I've seen a comment before that the Disco2 is heavy in the rear - so helpful confirmation from you.

I have one D2 with ACE, and one without (the 2004). Does ACE have any impact on this issue at all? Notwithstanding the recent difficulties sorting out the '99 ACE vehicle's tyres, I have always found it incredibly stable on the road.

PS I'm hoping to get the alignment done tomorrow or soon thereafter, so it will be interesting to see what the results are (it's driving very nicely again, so I have to avoid the temptation not to bother with the alignment)!

Myles

[discorevy]

Thanks Slunnie, very interesting to read. I've seen a comment before that the Disco2 is heavy in the rear - so helpful confirmation from you.

I have one D2 with ACE, and one without (the 2004). Does ACE have any impact on this issue at all? Notwithstanding the recent difficulties sorting out the '99 ACE vehicle's tyres, I have always found it incredibly stable on the road.

PS I'm hoping to get the alignment done tomorrow or soon thereafter, so it will be interesting to see what the results are (it's driving very nicely again, so I have to avoid the temptation not to bother with the alignment)!

Myles

I haven't read the whole thread, but make sure they aim for 1mm toe out ( and anywhere between 0 and 2 is ok. The torque reaction causes the wheels to want to try and "toe in" when accelerating.
The "toe out" is to offset this.

[Campaspe Man]

I haven't read the whole thread, but make sure they aim for 1mm toe out ( and anywhere between 0 and 2 is ok. The torque reaction causes the wheels to want to try and "toe in" when accelerating.
The "toe out" is to offset this.

You read my mind - thank you! I nearly asked this question, but didn't!

Cheers,
Myles

[Slunnie]

Thanks Slunnie, very interesting to read. I've seen a comment before that the Disco2 is heavy in the rear - so helpful confirmation from you.

I have one D2 with ACE, and one without (the 2004). Does ACE have any impact on this issue at all? Notwithstanding the recent difficulties sorting out the '99 ACE vehicle's tyres, I have always found it incredibly stable on the road.

PS I'm hoping to get the alignment done tomorrow or soon thereafter, so it will be interesting to see what the results are (it's driving very nicely again, so I have to avoid the temptation not to bother with the alignment)!

Myles

I think it wont make much difference, but the ACE will only help, because without body sway you don't get suspension geometry changes. The ACE is perfect with anything up to a 2" lift. The 2" lift funnily enough is only just barely out of LandRover factory suspension tolerances.

You're right though, make sure you bother with the wheel alignment otherwise you're killing what is probably $2000 worth of tyres and it is far less fun if you have to nurse the tyres everywhere to not chop them out. I hope it all goes well.

[Campaspe Man]

Just to report back, after all the helpful assistance I've received.

The wheel alignment was done today, and happily I was able to convince the chaps to set the front to a positive toe-out (as has been suggested). Earlier in this thread I described problems with rapid wearing on the inside line of the front tyres, and the need to replace the lower bushes on the front shocks (which I did after having new front tyres fitted, and putting the not-so-old but now unevenly worn front tyres to the rear).

Next step was the alignment. I now have a total toe of +1.1mm, whereas previously I had a total of -4.1 (uneven between left and right). I have to admit I don't understand how it can be uneven, but never mind). Below is the full report. The fella seemed to think the camber is in pretty good shape, and nothing else of major concern.

Any thoughts about the results below? (sorry, tried to rotate the image, but without luck)194958


I'm thinking that amount of excessive toe-in is probably responsible for the uneven wear...?

Thanks again,
Myles

[Campaspe Man]

This is normal from under the car doing the check. When new tie rod ends will be tighter and require more force to twist. As they age, this gets easier. If they're a bit old and don't have any movement, I'd worry that they're seized up completely.

if you can grab yourself a lackie!! ... you'll be under the car and they will be inside turning the stg wheel left right in about 1/2 to 1/4 turns continuously and you will be watching for any slack between the trackrod and the steering knuckle arm movements.
That is, watch both drag link and pass side knuckle for movement. If the drag link moves a teeny bit but there is a slight slack/delay in the knuckle arm, then the tie rod is worn. Same for track rod.

You can have easy rotation movement in the tie rod, but its still tight enough between rod and knuckle.

Any slack in the tie rod end is usually felt as a wobble, death wobble, etc. if the steering damper is also worn just get more wobbles.
Steering damper is best taken off and push or pull it to be in it's central extended position. Then push-pull it at that point, only by a few cm, and if that has any slackness or loose play then it's stuffed. Don't need to fully compress/extend it to do this check.


After having responded to Arthur that neither my lackie nor I could observe in problems, I'm embarrassed to say that when I was cleaning the underside a bit before the wheel alignment today, I realised that the drag link tie rod (connection to LH knuckle) lifts up about 1mm pretty easily - so there's a jiggle up and down about 1mm). No obvious sideways movement, but I'm presuming this isn't as it should be? I tightened the nut to make certain that wasn't the problem, which it wasn't. There is clearly up and down jiggle within the ball joint.

Thanks,
Myles

[DieselLSE]

There is clearly up and down jiggle within the ball joint.
Presumably, this was fixed prior to the alignment?

[Campaspe Man]

Presumably, this was fixed prior to the alignment?

Well no... hopefully I was clear enough that it isn't the main ball joints, it's the steering tie rod. It is otherwise tight. But I'm sensing you don't think it should have any jiggle in it??

Thanks,
Myles

[TonyC]

After having responded to Arthur that neither my lackie nor I could observe in problems, I'm embarrassed to say that when I was cleaning the underside a bit before the wheel alignment today, I realised that the drag link tie rod (connection to LH knuckle) lifts up about 1mm pretty easily - so there's a jiggle up and down about 1mm). No obvious sideways movement, but I'm presuming this isn't as it should be? I tightened the nut to make certain that wasn't the problem, which it wasn't. There is clearly up and down jiggle within the ball joint.

Thanks,
Myles

The drag link goes from the steering box to the left (on a right hand drive car) front wheel.
The tie rod goes from one front wheel to the other, it's behind the axel on a D1 or Defender, I assume the same on a D2.

Play in the drag link ball joints won't affect the wheel alignment, play in the tie rod ball joints will.

Play in any need to be fixed.

Tony

[discorevy]

Just to report back, after all the helpful assistance I've received.

The wheel alignment was done today, and happily I was able to convince the chaps to set the front to a positive toe-out (as has been suggested). Earlier in this thread I described problems with rapid wearing on the inside line of the front tyres, and the need to replace the lower bushes on the front shocks (which I did after having new front tyres fitted, and putting the not-so-old but now unevenly worn front tyres to the rear).

Next step was the alignment. I now have a total toe of +1.1mm, whereas previously I had a total of -4.1 (uneven between left and right). I have to admit I don't understand how it can be uneven, but never mind). Below is the full report. The fella seemed to think the camber is in pretty good shape, and nothing else of major concern.

Any thoughts about the results below? (sorry, tried to rotate the image, but without luck)194958


I'm thinking that amount of excessive toe-in is probably responsible for the uneven wear...?

Thanks again,
Myles

If the tyres were worn on the inside, you had too much negative toe, which the image shows.

You still want negative Toe ( front tyres pointing outward ) but only -1mm, not -4.1mm.

they are now toeing in, (+1.1mm) which is the opposite of what you want.

You will never get an accurate alignment with unservicable Tie or track rod ends.

They should have checked this before attempting a wheel alignment.

The difference between different sides just means the wheels weren't perfectly straight when the alignment was done.

[Campaspe Man]

The drag link goes from the steering box to the left (on a right hand drive car) front wheel.
The tie rod goes from one front wheel to the other, it's behind the axel on a D1 or Defender, I assume the same on a D2.

Play in the drag link ball joints won't affect the wheel alignment, play in the tie rod ball joints will.

Play in any need to be fixed.

Tony

Thanks Tony - yes, the jiggle is in the forward steering drag link at the wheel/knuckle.
Gotcha.

Myles

[Campaspe Man]

If the tyres were worn on the inside, you had too much negative toe, which the image shows.

You still want negative Toe ( front tyres pointing outward ) but only -1mm, not -4.1mm.

they are now toeing in, (+1.1mm) which is the opposite of what you want.

You will never get an accurate alignment with unservicable Tie or track rod ends.

They should have checked this before attempting a wheel alignment.

The difference between different sides just means the wheels weren't perfectly straight when the alignment was done.

Oh dear. I used the words "toe-out" 1mm. I must admit that I took this to mean positive toe. But you are clearly saying that toe-out is negative. I suspect the error was made when the lad working on the car called me and referred to positve rather than toe-in (and I made the mistake at that point).

Oh well, shouldn't be too hard to fix (once I deal with the drag link jiggle).

Cheers,
Myles

[DieselLSE]

But I'm sensing you don't think it should have any jiggle in it?
Nup. It's on its way to failing. Personally, I'd replace all the tie-rod ends and do another alignment.

[AK83]

Nup. It's on its way to failing. Personally, I'd replace all the tie-rod ends and do another alignment.

Yeah, same advice from me too.

Usually you will find, fix the worn one ... and then another will follow suit, then another one ... etc.

I think I mentioned before, the D2's tie rod end design is such that one end is crimped to the rod itself, where the D1/RRC/other solid axle 4WDs have rods and ends all separated.
So if you use std D2 parts, when you order 'tie rod ends' you will only get two rod ends and two rods too.
Original stuff is quite expensive, aftermarket is a lot cheaper(less than half).
And one thing to watch for is the male-female thread end on the track rod. The threads can be worn/rusted/damaged and if you do get the track rod it can be a total pain trying to get the old thread link into the new rod.

If you plan to keep the D2 for a few years, I'd suggest to get the terrafirma HD set. End up costing the same or cheaper than the std aftermarket sets for the D2. The bonus is that at some future date all the rod ends on the TF set are independent(ie. cheaper)
You can usually find them on ebay.

[Campaspe Man]

If the tyres were worn on the inside, you had too much negative toe, which the image shows.

You still want negative Toe ( front tyres pointing outward ) but only -1mm, not -4.1mm.

they are now toeing in, (+1.1mm) which is the opposite of what you want.

You will never get an accurate alignment with unservicable Tie or track rod ends.

They should have checked this before attempting a wheel alignment.

The difference between different sides just means the wheels weren't perfectly straight when the alignment was done.

For my edification, may I ask why negative toe is tyres pointing outwards, and positive toe, in? Somehow this seems the opposite of what "makes sense" to me? Is it because the toe is set on the track rod, which I suppose will be shortened (or negative) in order to achieve the opposite at the leading edge of the tyres?

Or sumit else?

Thanks,
Myles

[Campaspe Man]

Yeah, same advice from me too.

Usually you will find, fix the worn one ... and then another will follow suit, then another one ... etc.

I think I mentioned before, the D2's tie rod end design is such that one end is crimped to the rod itself, where the D1/RRC/other solid axle 4WDs have rods and ends all separated.
So if you use std D2 parts, when you order 'tie rod ends' you will only get two rod ends and two rods too.
Original stuff is quite expensive, aftermarket is a lot cheaper(less than half).
And one thing to watch for is the male-female thread end on the track rod. The threads can be worn/rusted/damaged and if you do get the track rod it can be a total pain trying to get the old thread link into the new rod.

If you plan to keep the D2 for a few years, I'd suggest to get the terrafirma HD set. End up costing the same or cheaper than the std aftermarket sets for the D2. The bonus is that at some future date all the rod ends on the TF set are independent(ie. cheaper)
You can usually find them on ebay.

Thanks Arthur. Well, I replaced the track rod (with the crimped version of course) in the last couple of years, but maybe I can start making the shift now.

Myles

[discorevy]

For my edification, may I ask why negative toe is tyres pointing outwards, and positive toe, in? Somehow this seems the opposite of what "makes sense" to me? Is it because the toe is set on the track rod, which I suppose will be shortened (or negative) in order to achieve the opposite at the leading edge of the tyres?

Or sumit else?

Thanks,
Myles

When viewed from above ( which it always is on a wheel alignment machine ) toe out represents a positive angle

Edit: I got a distraction and posted before saying that maybe this is where the confusion lies, as in eg -1mm is a positive angle but negative toe https://mathmonks.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Positive-and-Negative-Angles.jpg

[Campaspe Man]

When viewed from above ( which it always is on a wheel alignment machine ) toe out represents a positive angle

Edit: I got a distraction and posted before saying that maybe this is where the confusion lies, as in eg -1mm is a positive angle but negative toe https://mathmonks.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Positive-and-Negative-Angles.jpg


Thanks very much - and yes, this is what I think happened: I asked for toe-out of 1mm, but when the person came to do the job, he asked for confirmation and the word positive was used, and I said yes, "positively" (but meaning toe out)! Sort of my mistake, but ideally the boss man would have been more on the ball and realised the mistake when he saw the data sheet positive values and remembered that I asked for toe-out.

Now that I understand it, it won't happen again.

[V8Ian]

Where is the x mm measured?
Surely x⁰ would be more accurate and less likely to be inadvertently misaligned.

[Campaspe Man]

For those that have the misfortune to remember something of this thread, I think I owe an update.

To recap as little as necessary, for context, I'd had severe inside wear on the front tyres. I was informed the shock bushes need replacing, so did that. After advice here, I took it for the alignment, with the request for 1mm toe out. I then subsequently learned (from here), that the +1mm was in fact toe-in! Further, I also realised that a tie rod needed replacing...

So I replaced the tie rod, and took it back to the local joint for another alignment (with half a thought they might even do it gratis). Well, the other half thought would have been the correct one. I spoke with the boss when I dropped it off, and handed him the previous alignment report, with a written note to aim for -1mm (or 1mm toe out). He took the sheet and sent me away.

At pick up, I was handed two fresh reports, and to my disbelief, the boss pointed out they did 2mm toe out (!), and wait for it, after the test drive he did another check, and it was 2.7mm toe out - which he seemed happy with. UNfortunately, there were people and cars everywhere, and I didn't quite have the nerve to give him the unhappy news. Also, I blamed myself, insofar as I had had the feeling for some time that my trust in this establishment was truly misplaced. (I wanted to use the smaller local business). Another reason for not 'making an issue' is that I am slowly learning that we'll need them someday for a quick repair on a tyre, and I didn't trust myself to not ruin the relationship.

Having slept on it a bit, I decided to 'ave a go meself, before taking it to another shop at the next bigger town (Kyneton). I mention this for transparency, and because I intend to start another thread soon on DIY alignment. So, with the shop's report in hand I made a few marks on the front tyres, and tried a few measurements to try to measure the toe. I won't go into detail here, but after a while I felt comfortable that I was achieving a reliable result. Anyway, the end result was that I made some adjustments with some level of confidence that I had reduced the toe out to about 1mm.

A week or so later I decided to try the other tyre joint - the website sounded pretty good. After a brief attempt to explain why I was standing there, and what I hoped for, the fella explained he'd been doing this for 30 years, and no way was 1mm toe out the right thing to do... yudda yudda, something about European auto bahn's, porche's and whatever else... oh, and Australian driving conditions. I decided not to proceed. One thing I have learnt, is that sometimes it's not worth the pain.

The final note is that the vehicle is driving well, no shakes or shudders. I did then do quite a bit of research on DIY alignment, and have conducted some more extensive checks, which I plan to detail in another thread. The upshot is that I am confident the toe out is now around 0.5 to 1.0mm.

Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot. Thanks again for the help throughout this thread.

Myles

[Tins]

A week or so later I decided to try the other tyre joint - the website sounded pretty good. After a brief attempt to explain why I was standing there, and what I hoped for, the fella explained he'd been doing this for 30 years, and no way was 1mm toe out the right thing to do... yudda yudda, something about European auto bahn's, porche's and whatever else... oh, and Australian driving conditions. I decided not to proceed. One thing I have learnt, is that sometimes it's not worth the pain.



Because of course LR designed the D2 to spend its life on them. Funny how some bloke in Kyneton knows more than the manufacturer. But it's not a hill to die on. If he won't do what you want him to then he doesn't get to do it. I have fought that battle too.

[TonyC]

For those that have the misfortune to remember something of this thread, I think I owe an update.

To recap as little as necessary, for context, I'd had severe inside wear on the front tyres. I was informed the shock bushes need replacing, so did that. After advice here, I took it for the alignment, with the request for 1mm toe out. I then subsequently learned (from here), that the +1mm was in fact toe-in! Further, I also realised that a tie rod needed replacing...

So I replaced the tie rod, and took it back to the local joint for another alignment (with half a thought they might even do it gratis). Well, the other half thought would have been the correct one. I spoke with the boss when I dropped it off, and handed him the previous alignment report, with a written note to aim for -1mm (or 1mm toe out). He took the sheet and sent me away.

At pick up, I was handed two fresh reports, and to my disbelief, the boss pointed out they did 2mm toe out (!), and wait for it, after the test drive he did another check, and it was 2.7mm toe out - which he seemed happy with. UNfortunately, there were people and cars everywhere, and I didn't quite have the nerve to give him the unhappy news. Also, I blamed myself, insofar as I had had the feeling for some time that my trust in this establishment was truly misplaced. (I wanted to use the smaller local business). Another reason for not 'making an issue' is that I am slowly learning that we'll need them someday for a quick repair on a tyre, and I didn't trust myself to not ruin the relationship.

Having slept on it a bit, I decided to 'ave a go meself, before taking it to another shop at the next bigger town (Kyneton). I mention this for transparency, and because I intend to start another thread soon on DIY alignment. So, with the shop's report in hand I made a few marks on the front tyres, and tried a few measurements to try to measure the toe. I won't go into detail here, but after a while I felt comfortable that I was achieving a reliable result. Anyway, the end result was that I made some adjustments with some level of confidence that I had reduced the toe out to about 1mm.

A week or so later I decided to try the other tyre joint - the website sounded pretty good. After a brief attempt to explain why I was standing there, and what I hoped for, the fella explained he'd been doing this for 30 years, and no way was 1mm toe out the right thing to do... yudda yudda, something about European auto bahn's, porche's and whatever else... oh, and Australian driving conditions. I decided not to proceed. One thing I have learnt, is that sometimes it's not worth the pain.

The final note is that the vehicle is driving well, no shakes or shudders. I did then do quite a bit of research on DIY alignment, and have conducted some more extensive checks, which I plan to detail in another thread. The upshot is that I am confident the toe out is now around 0.5 to 1.0mm.

Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot. Thanks again for the help throughout this thread.

Myles

Absolutely it's a DIY job.

Beam axle Land Rovers are dead easy to do yourself, the only adjustment is toe at the front.
The 1mm should be measured on the rim edge, then roll the car forward/back half a wheel rotation and then measure the same spot on the rim.

More complex cars need 4 wheel alignment fronts need to be aligned with the rears, and toe, camber and caster all need need adjusting.

If an alignment place can't even be bothered to look up the specs then as John says, move on.

Tony

[V8Ian]

Absolutely it's a DIY job.

Beam axle Land Rovers are dead easy to do yourself, the only adjustment is toe at the front.
The 1mm should be measured on the rim edge, then roll the car forward/back half a wheel rotation and then measure the same spot on the rim.

More complex cars need 4 wheel alignment fronts need to be aligned with the rears, and toe, camber and caster all need need adjusting.

If an alignment place can't even be bothered to look up the specs then as John says, move on.

Tony
If they have moderately up to date equipment they don't have to look it up. Type the VIN into the machine and follow the instructions.

[Campaspe Man]

Thanks folks for the comments/replies.

Yep, the tyre joint had access to Land Rover's specs on their machine. The thing is that Land Rover wants about 1mm toe IN on the D2 front wheels, whereas the advice here (Slunnie, Discorevy, and even going back 10 or 15 years to someone called Justin I think), is to aim between 0 and 2mm toe OUT (hence my aim for 1mm toe out). The reasoning seems to be that the torque applied to the front wheels tends to pull them in, so the toe out is to balance this, and that LR's specs are less concerned with tyre wear than comfort or some such.

Interestingly, the rear wheels have about 1mm toe out set. I did find one wheel alignment video explanation on Youstube that is more thorough than most, which included a very small reference to front wheel drive's, with a comment that toe out would usually be set on these vehicles. My conclusion has been that the full time 4 wheel drive (or 2 axle drive) of LR's is what is not recognised by tyre shops as being a point of difference to many other 4wd's out there. Maybe?

Cheers,
Myles

[V8Ian]

It must be the raw Land Rover power and torque deforming the axle housings. [bigwhistle]

[AK83]

.....

Interestingly, the rear wheels have about 1mm toe out set. ....

Rear alignment spec is a bit weird ... in that it could be both toe in, or toe out(according to RAVE).

I'm not math enough to work out angles to mm, but RAVE specifies toe values in degrees.
20'
Front definitely toe out at 0° 10' with an error factor of 0° 10' ... ie. could be from 0°(zero mm) up to 0° 20' toe out.

So, if 10' of angle equates to 1mm, then as you found between 0-2mm of toe out is acceptable.

When you look at the rear specs, it's +0° 5', i.e. toe in, but the error factor is plus or minus 0° 15'. Error is 3x what the supposed value is.

You could be between +20' and -10' on the rear ... i.e. toe in or toe out on the rear.

reminder that 60'(minutes) = 1°(degree).

ps. I just used an online triangle calc to work out that, yep ... 10' of angle on a 16" rim is 1.18mm(1.33mm for an 18" rim)

Some time ago, trying to get my D1 to steer straight: I went to one shop, useless(but they did my Rodeo well many year prior).
I went to another shop, he said my drag link was looking weak, and seized .. I thought good stuff, didn't waste my $s .. so went back after I swapped drag link and track rod(new joints too) .. and BINGO! D1 now near perfect.
Maybe a year later same mob(about 40mins drive from me) .. this time back to the normal useless service. Over time D1 started to steer left again. Second time they did nothing .. no change. ARgghhhh!
Now I live in rural Vic, and everything is 30mins away. Found a mob in Bendigo ... did nothing. After some months tried a mob in Cohuna .. yeah, they did OK. D1 now straight, but steering now a bit vague and deathly wobbly on rough roads(a lot out here).
But they got it straight. Took the D2a in a week later. They remembered me thinking I had a problem with D1, had to explain... is my other Disco. [biggrin]
They did good on that one too. I'm thinking awesome. Then took D2 in .. we had a bit of a laugh .. and they explained to me they used to have a worker there with LandRover disease too.
Anyhow, D2 went average. they turned it from right pulling to left pulling. I'd still use them again, and two out of three ain't bad.

That was all a year or more ago. Then bro came over one day and got himself an alignment kit from Vevor.
On the D1, very awkward to use(the bolt pattern) on the D2 it's a bit better. The kit itself is kind'a useless, other than the two straight edges they supply, but they supply two tape measures and would have been better supplying to frayed strings instead. Error in those tape measures is crazy stupid. No way you can guess the distances with them. Anyhow, have plenty of tapes here. I checked D2 and it seemed to be this 1mm toe out.
Used it on brothers Falcon ute, and got that spot on too.
D2 still pulls(but then found plenty of worn bushes need replacing!)
Bro's Falcon is perfect.

One of my evil genius plans is to get a couple of cheap lazer level thingies. The model that projects vertical lines.

Have to do the little red Peugeot one day... then once I'll do all the bushes in the D2 and finally sort that one properly.

[Graeme]

... D1 now straight, but steering now a bit vague and deathly wobbly on rough roads(a lot out here).Sounds like caster bearing pre-load might be inadequate.

[AK83]

Sounds like caster bearing pre-load might be inadequate.

Turned out to be wheel bearings.
Checked all four, but two fronts were just a wee bit loosey.

Grease still as blue as the day I smeared it too.