Under Bonnet Lithium Batteries

[DiscoDB]

Starting to see more 12v lithium batteries which are claimed to be suitable for under bonnet and now even cranking duty use.

One is the Invicta Hybrid Starter, which comes with an 80ah nominal capacity, 800amp max discharge current, and 1400CCA. Claims to be good for 100% DoD 2000 cycle life, which would translate to a long life.

SSB also have lithium cranking batteries warranted for under bonnet use. And Optima have a smaller OrangeTop QH6 lithium cranking battery which is similar size to the Yellowtop D34.

Whilst we also know iTech has the under bonnet secondary battery which Tombie I believe is using. I believe the iTech range is growing as well.

They all look to be using lithium cells developed for EV or Hybrid applications.

Interested to hear if anyone has experience with any of these “under bonnet” use lithium batteries.

[PhilipA]

Alloffroad has experience! DCS Lithium LiFePo4 Under Bonnet Update: I went back to Lead Acid (under bonnet) 2023 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRcSPuBob-I)
This is pretty famous .
Regards PhilipA

[DiscoDB]

For balance good to also publish the DCS statement and leave it at that.

DCS Statement Regarding Outcome of Court Decision (https://www.deepcyclesystems.com.au/dcs-statement-regarding-outcome-of-court-decision/)

So let’s not go down the potential defamation path.

[p38arover]

So let’s not go down the potential deformation path.

Nor defamation path. :)

[DiscoDB]

Hopefully Tombie can give an update on his under bonnet lithium battery.

One of the concerns I would have is the BMS over temp cut out. Many are set around the 80 degree Celsius mark. I see over 70 degrees at the battery in summer and this in Melbourne.

I feel they really need some form of forced cooling.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Do the lithium cranking batteries use a capacitor to generate the amps?

[DiscoDB]

No - most likely use A123 pouch cells for cranking battery use. These are rated for high continuous discharge current and high peak currents. Often used in mild hybrids (in the 48v configuration).

[oka374]

Don't even think about it I've just lost a vehicle after the one week old Lithium starting battery set it on fire when it shorted internally
I'll provide more info once the insurance is sorted.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Don't even think about it I've just lost a vehicle after the one week old Lithium starting battery set it on fire when it shorted internally
I'll provide more info once the insurance is sorted.
That''s horrible! :(

Custom lithium made a battery for my camper. When asked they said "if there is an internal short the mosfets blow and that isolates the cells". Some must be made differently.

[DiscoDB]

Not good at all oka374. Hope everyone was OK.

Do post details or start a new thread. I am sure it would be a concern for many with 12v lithium batteries.

[BradC]

That''s horrible! :(

Custom lithium made a battery for my camper. When asked they said "if there is an internal short the mosfets blow and that isolates the cells". Some must be made differently.

Nah, they're all the same. A fault in the BMS is different to a fault in the cells. You might get lucky with a BMS fault and it blows a MOSFET, but once a cell is going there's no stopping it.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Nah, they're all the same. A fault in the BMS is different to a fault in the cells. You might get lucky with a BMS fault and it blows a MOSFET, but once a cell is going there's no stopping it.
Are the pouch cell lithiums mentioned for cranking the same? I've only heard of them in ev applications. I thought all the LIFEP04 batteries were quite different. Pouch cells AFAIK are not LIFPO4

[DiscoDB]

A123 Systems cells use what they describe as UltraPhosphate Lithium Ion. I believe still LiFePO4 but uses a patented process to manipulate the particle structure.

Invicta say they use the A123 pouch cells, whilst SSB describe them just as LiFePO4 prismatic cells (which could be pouch or cylindrical), but some vendors state they are pouch cells.

One note from my first post. The new Optima OrangeTop lithium whilst it is a cranking battery is not for under-bonnet use.

[disco gazza]

I had a lithium cranking battery in my 2003 RR TD6. Bought I think in 2019. Was made by iTech(WA).
Never had any problems with it. Car was written off in July this year (other driver smashed into the front R/H side- took out R/headlight,destroyed suspension and R fender [bawl]). Battery was still going strong.
Dont know whether they still make that battery or not.
cheers DG

[BradC]

Are the pouch cell lithiums mentioned for cranking the same? I've only heard of them in ev applications. I thought all the LIFEP04 batteries were quite different. Pouch cells AFAIK are not LIFPO4

Yes. The major difference is when they thermally runaway they don't burst directly into flames, they just vent hydrogen. Provided there's no ignition source they don't burn. Of course if there is an ignition source then all bets are off, and it's not particularly difficult to ignite hydrogen.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes. The major difference is when they thermally runaway they don't burst directly into flames, they just vent hydrogen. Provided there's no ignition source they don't burn. Of course if there is an ignition source then all bets are off, and it's not particularly difficult to ignite hydrogen.
My dad was a chemistry lecturer. For some reason he taught me how to make hydrogen balloons. Next thing tie a string on and douse it in metho. Stuff we did. Man they used to go with a bang.

[austastar]

Hi,
Especially if you pre-load the balloon with a little Oxy from the welding bottles. Or at least, so I am told.
Cheers

[oka374]

Well after a stressful month the insurance has been sorted and we can move on.
The Oka has been written off and will turn up at a Pickles auction later in the year.
The offending battery which has been confirmed as the sole reason for the fire by a forensic fire investigator as it shorted internally was an SSB LS55T starting battery, bought online early in november and fitted to the Oka for just over a week and one five hundred kilometre trip.
At the time of the fire it was completley isolated from the truck as I always do when camped to stop parasitic losses and prevent someone trying to start it as well. It had been isolated for two days and nights before it decided to fire up in the afternoon.
We were camped in my sons front yard with the bullbar under the eaves of his house so were very lucky that a neighbour heard the smoke alarm screaming and looked outside to see what was going on and quickly shoved a hose in through the flyscreen door to put the interior out and prevented the whole thing going up and taking the house with it.
The firies turned up and established that the battery was the problem as it kept arcing up despite copious amounts of water.
We were at the beach for the day and turned up as the battery went up again. I showed the firies how to slide the battery carriers out (Oka has a slideout carrier under the body behind the front wheels on each side for main and auxilary batteries) and between us we managed to get the battery into a Hazmat drum full of water and retardent where it still bubbled for a couple of hours afterwards.
This is the second lithium vehicle battery that I've had go up, the first was a few years ago on a mates farm where a battery in a quaddie fired up while I was riding it so I rode it into the dam to put it out.
I fitted the above battery as there are several Oka owners and other light truck owners that I know have been using them for 4 or 5 years with great success.
Personally I won't ever be installing another one and in fact won't ever have any drop in lithium battery which has an internal BMS in side the case and the volatile innards in the same place. It was suspected by the investigator that the BMS has overheated/shorted and started the fire, once it got going there was no stopping it, if we had been anywhere where there wasn't a hose handy with unlimited water supply like a bush camp we would have lost the lot.
The same would have been the case if it had been at home in the shed, by the time we would have noticed the truck, shed and contents on fire it would have been unstoppable.
Looking at what is left of the battery they appear to be pouch cells, certainly aren't cylindrical!

[Slunnie]

I'm so sorry to be reading this. I always have felt like a luddite running a stupidly heavy 150ah 2nd battery in the 4WD, and have often pondered if I should make the change.

I think I'll stick with the AGM battery and being a luddite - I'd be as devastated as you are if I lost my pride and joy too.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well after a stressful month the insurance has been sorted and we can move on.
The Oka has been written off and will turn up at a Pickles auction later in the year.
The offending battery which has been confirmed as the sole reason for the fire by a forensic fire investigator as it shorted internally was an SSB LS55T starting battery, bought online early in november and fitted to the Oka for just over a week and one five hundred kilometre trip.
At the time of the fire it was completley isolated from the truck as I always do when camped to stop parasitic losses and prevent someone trying to start it as well. It had been isolated for two days and nights before it decided to fire up in the afternoon.
We were camped in my sons front yard with the bullbar under the eaves of his house so were very lucky that a neighbour heard the smoke alarm screaming and looked outside to see what was going on and quickly shoved a hose in through the flyscreen door to put the interior out and prevented the whole thing going up and taking the house with it.
The firies turned up and established that the battery was the problem as it kept arcing up despite copious amounts of water.
We were at the beach for the day and turned up as the battery went up again. I showed the firies how to slide the battery carriers out (Oka has a slideout carrier under the body behind the front wheels on each side for main and auxilary batteries) and between us we managed to get the battery into a Hazmat drum full of water and retardent where it still bubbled for a couple of hours afterwards.
This is the second lithium vehicle battery that I've had go up, the first was a few years ago on a mates farm where a battery in a quaddie fired up while I was riding it so I rode it into the dam to put it out.
I fitted the above battery as there are several Oka owners and other light truck owners that I know have been using them for 4 or 5 years with great success.
Personally I won't ever be installing another one and in fact won't ever have any drop in lithium battery which has an internal BMS in side the case and the volatile innards in the same place. It was suspected by the investigator that the BMS has overheated/shorted and started the fire, once it got going there was no stopping it, if we had been anywhere where there wasn't a hose handy with unlimited water supply like a bush camp we would have lost the lot.
The same would have been the case if it had been at home in the shed, by the time we would have noticed the truck, shed and contents on fire it would have been unstoppable.
Looking at what is left of the battery they appear to be pouch cells, certainly aren't cylindrical!

Wow.. pouch cells. Was it LIFP04?

[BradC]

I hope you’ve gone back to SSB with all that info. Reading their web page on that particular battery it turns out they’re “pioneers” in the technology. It also sounds like they’ve conveniently ignored the temperature sensitivity of those cells and pretty much built a large jump start pack into a battery case.

[oka374]

I forgot to add that after I had lodged the insurance claim I rang SSB and told them what had happened, they immediately within the hour, without any evidence from me like pictures etc refunded the cost of the battery and the shipping to my account.
If that doesn't indicate that it's happened before!
The firies and the insurance company also have full details of the purchase and refund and the firies will definitely follow it up wiith the relevant govt departments as they are sick of attending fires caused by lithium batteries.
Apparently some of the recent truck fires have been caused by the lithium batteries that supply power for the sleeper HVAC systems firing up while travelling down the highway when they aren't even being used but are probably being charged.

[oka374]

It was sold as a Lithium Starting battery, roughly 60ah in physical size and 1400 CCA, weighed 7.5kg.
The company that supplied it refunded the purchase price and shipping costs within an hour of my informing them of what it had done, if that isn't an admission that it's happened before!
They don't appear to have any more stock now!
I won't name it here on the forum for the usual reasons.

195748

[loanrangie]

It was sold as a Lithium Starting battery, roughly 60ah in physical size and 1400 CCA, weighed 7.5kg.
The company that supplied it refunded the purchase price and shipping costs within an hour of my informing them of what it had done, if that isn't an admission that it's happened before!
They don't appear to have any more stock now!
I won't name it here on the forum for the usual reasons.

195748

Lucky, that could have been a real disaster. Did it cause much damage ?

[Tins]

I've seen the car. Had it been anything other than an OKA it would be kaput. Well, I guess most trucks really. The batteries are mounted in an external carrier. Under the bonnet, or inside the vehicle and it would probably have taken out the house. Any idea I might have had for fitting lithium to mine went up with Peter's car.

Been watching a series of vids on a brand of batt in the US. Not saying which brand. But I'd already made up my mind, I think. Certainly never getting one from a startup mob, based on what I've seen. Reputable battery brands, maybe one day.

[BradC]

We'd been planning for years to put some in the boat. Keep a bank of N27 x 4 Lead Acid for starting, but replace a bank with Lithiums for house. To quote Jake Blues when being asked to go and see the Penguin "No ****ing Way".

Best we've come up with is to keep the 2 banks of N27's, and put 2 12V lithiums in carry battery boxes in the cockpit on a big Anderson so we can remove them from the boat when not on-board. I sure as **** wouldn't leave them somewhere concealed where we couldn't chuck them over the side if they went up.

[Tins]

I sure as **** wouldn't leave them somewhere concealed where we couldn't chuck them over the side if they went up.

Provided you could get near enough to the things to disconnect them and heave. As you know, even ONE 18650 can turn into a rocket.

[BradC]

Provided you could get near enough to the things to disconnect them and heave. As you know, even ONE 18650 can turn into a rocket.

That's true, and I've done it accidentally. Not something I'm keen to repeat. On the other hand, in theory Lifepo4 cells don't auto-combust. I've read they emit a strong stream of hydrogen when under thermal runaway. Of course that's highly combustible, but when in an open air location with 3 fire extinguishers and a hose handy I'd hope it's a bit easier to manage. The problem with the old 18650 is they provide both the fuel and the oxidiser. Apparently the lifepo4 cells only provide the fuel, allowing you to remove that other part of the fire triangle.

I could be wrong. I have been before, and it wouldn't be the first time.

On the other hand, if those batteries were in a confined space, then it wouldn't be hard to reach an explosive mixture of hydrogen and oxygen and really bad things could happen.

[Tins]

Theories are fine until facts inconveniently come along. Peter's auto combust was quite the conflagration. I am too suspicious now to differentiate between types of lithium cells. Bloody things are dangerous. But, no, i'm not ditching my cordless tools..... but I do take care when charging them. I figure I can throw them away in the event of a fire if I am holding them at the time[bighmmm]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I've seen the car. Had it been anything other than an OKA it would be kaput. Well, I guess most trucks really. The batteries are mounted in an external carrier. Under the bonnet, or inside the vehicle and it would probably have taken out the house. Any idea I might have had for fitting lithium to mine went up with Peter's car.

Been watching a series of vids on a brand of batt in the US. Not saying which brand. But I'd already made up my mind, I think. Certainly never getting one from a startup mob, based on what I've seen. Reputable battery brands, maybe one day.
As consumers it's hard. No one ever buys anything thinking it's going to end in dissaster. Whenever we buy things there are always assurances that those bad things will never happen with this device.

But clearly bad things do happen. And even if bad things happen to other people using your device you're stuck with wearing the risk or replacing them. In a safety critical thing like a lithium battery a warranty replacement is little comfort if it's torched your car.

Even if you buy units that have a solid reputation - there is no guarnatee that a small production change doesn't mean that your unit is a dissaster waiting to happen.

With conventional lithium batteries for accessories I will say there are a LOT of them out there now.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

We'd been planning for years to put some in the boat. Keep a bank of N27 x 4 Lead Acid for starting, but replace a bank with Lithiums for house. To quote Jake Blues when being asked to go and see the Penguin "No ****ing Way".

Best we've come up with is to keep the 2 banks of N27's, and put 2 12V lithiums in carry battery boxes in the cockpit on a big Anderson so we can remove them from the boat when not on-board. I sure as **** wouldn't leave them somewhere concealed where we couldn't chuck them over the side if they went up.
When my brother was building his dream boat he just went with lead acid because of the fire risk. In his boat at least weight and space were not overly critical.

Boat fires obviously have additional risks over land base applications.

[BradC]

Absolutely. I don't want to have to throw my family over the side if a cheap-arse (but expensive and purportedly reliable "Hello SSB read the thread?") lithium battery goes up. The idea of having them in battery boxes in the cockpit is there's no place for the gas to accumulate so they might burn a bit but not explode.

I've read numerous accident investigations on lifepo4 batteries and most of them are related to the battery being in a place where gas could accumulate. The worst was a UK "narrow-boat" where the gas made its way into the cabin through an improperly sealed penetration and built up to an explosive proportion (which is between **** all and a lot for hydrogen) and the thermostat on the fridge sparked it off.

Lead acids off-gas a stoichiometric mixture of oxygen and hydrogen. I've had to help on a mates boat where a lead-acid "let go" with a massive ****ing bang. The difference is it's a one off "spew acid everywhere", rather than a "let's keep emitting fuel until we've sunk". Still had holes all over my clothes and had to slush the engine room out with a bicarb/water mix, but didn't kill his family.

[oka374]

Once the firies had put it out and the Oka was flooded with water and retardent the bloke in charge asked what other batteries of any type were on board.
I said various torches with rechargeable batteries, laptop, kindle, tablet etc etc, two Dewalt 18v wet cell auxilary battery in a cradle underneath on LHS just the same as the RHS and a 400ah lithium house battery. He nearly had a hearty at the last one especially as i said it's directly above that battery that's caused the fire.with only a 19mm pywood floor between them.
The order was then to please remove all batteries from the vehicle before they left.
Which we did plus i educated the firies to the fact that Winston LYP cells that the house battery was constructed out of were in no way flammable and in fact two of the eight cells that made up the battery had been burnt and heated externally by the fire but were still fully charged and the pack was still sitting at 13.3 volts.
I've since replaced those two burnt cells and obtained two secondhand cells to replace them and the pack is still functioning as it has for the last 15 years.
The Australian supplier of Winston cells also asked me when i told him what had happened "why didn't you just get four 100ah winston cells and use them as a starting battery.
With the addition of a small cell balancer we've been doing that for over ten years with our fleet vehicles!!"
Which i may well do the next time one of our vehicles requires a new cranking battery.

[Blknight.aus]

following in on this...

recently I got to have a look at a "lithium starting battery" which had had a bit of a calamity..

inside whats left of the box is a pack of smoke damaged lithium pouches, a BMS and a 10pack of very not small capacitors or more accurately what was left of a 10 pack of of not very small capacitors The internal burny melty carnage is all confinded to the area with the capacitors

Best guess (and I support the theory of both construction and fire cause) is the capacitors deal with the sudden ask of amps like a capacitor jump starter but for some reason this one had a capacitor or 2 die and short out taking the brunt of what the pouches could deliver turning it into heat then catching fire..

Pondering battery safety. I wonder if battery manufacturers (or installers) have considered fitting in something akin to the old fire grenades, the element fire extinquisher sticks or the cheapy 2 pack thermal rupture disk puck extinguishers you can get off ebay/amazon.

Side thought,, a soda stream CO2 cannister with a rupture disc inside the battery would purge the 02 out and with a rapid venting of compressed gass, cool the battery itself internally, at least, a little.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

following in on this...

recently I got to have a look at a "lithium starting battery" which had had a bit of a calamity..

inside whats left of the box is a pack of smoke damaged lithium pouches, a BMS and a 10pack of very not small capacitors or more accurately what was left of a 10 pack of of not very small capacitors The internal burny melty carnage is all confinded to the area with the capacitors

Best guess (and I support the theory of both construction and fire cause) is the capacitors deal with the sudden ask of amps like a capacitor jump starter but for some reason this one had a capacitor or 2 die and short out taking the brunt of what the pouches could deliver turning it into heat then catching fire..

Pondering battery safety. I wonder if battery manufacturers (or installers) have considered fitting in something akin to the old fire grenades, the element fire extinquisher sticks or the cheapy 2 pack thermal rupture disk puck extinguishers you can get off ebay/amazon.

Side thought,, a soda stream CO2 cannister with a rupture disc inside the battery would purge the 02 out and with a rapid venting of compressed gass, cool the battery itself internally, at least, a little.

Interesting idea. I thought the reason why these fires were so hard to put out though.. was that they generate their own hydrogen and oxygen. So adding CO2 might not be as helpful as you'd hope.

[Blknight.aus]

Interesting idea. I thought the reason why these fires were so hard to put out though.. was that they generate their own hydrogen and oxygen. So adding CO2 might not be as helpful as you'd hope.

I was of the understanding that it was a combination of the heat (from the cell shorting) and the hydrogen and o2 so you have all 3 sides of the fire triangle for the older lithium ion batteries but no so with the lifepo4s as they dont have the o2 element attached.

In anycase if anyone wants to get all mad scientist and has one of the larger Li-ion batteries and wants to play silly games for some potentially silly prizes, Im happy to grab the co2 cans...

with my luck we wouldnt get the damn thing to light.

[BradC]

I was of the understanding that it was a combination of the heat (from the cell shorting) and the hydrogen and o2 so you have all 3 sides of the fire triangle for the older lithium ion batteries but no so with the lifepo4s as they dont have the o2 element attached.


It is my understanding also. They will undergo thermal runway and pump out hydrogen. The issue as I understand it is lithium cobalt cells emit fuel and oxidiser and then sets fire to it. That’s almost impossible to extinguish and makes a mess. Lithium Iron Phosphate will only emit hydrogen. That has a hugely wide lower and upper explosive threshold, so the hydrogen builds up until something sparks it and all hell breaks loose.

[PhilipA]

Lifepo4 batteries can outgas hydrogen if the cells are physically damaged. i recall CATL did many tests years ago where they shot holes in the cells without fire , just smouldering and swelling. in a restricted area the hydrogen could explode of course. They can be cooled with water.
Regards PhilipA
tests of lifepo4 cells with penetration testing - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=tests+of+lifepo4+cells+with+penetration+t esting&sca_esv=8fb6979f6721b93f&sxsrf=ANbL-n7AuZoT5tCfarxftY4iopsj_wFB7w%3A1771911237200&ei=RTidaej6C4q14-EPqv3k0AU&biw=1912&bih=914&oq=tests+of+lifepo4+cells+with+penetration&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJ3Rlc3RzIG9mIGxpZmVwbzQg Y2VsbHMgd2l0aCBwZW5ldHJhdGlvbioCCAAyBRAhGKABMgUQIR igAUjQhQFQ0A9YjnFwAXgBkAEAmAGmAqABsiOqAQYwLjE2Lje4 AQHIAQD4AQGYAhigAqIkwgIKEAAYsAMY1gQYR8ICBBAjGCfCAg UQABjvBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIGEAAYFhgewgILEAAYgAQYhgMY igXCAgQQIRgVwgIFECEYnwXCAgcQIRigARgKmAMAiAYBkAYIkg cIMS4xMy45LjGgB91gsgcIMC4xMy45LjG4B50kwgcIMS4xNi42 LjHIBz-ACAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

My understanding is with LIFPO4 you have to have a lot of bad luck to get them to go. And even then they will try and go out!

Re this thread it is as ever complex. What type of cells do they use? What if the Cap goes up instead. It's all messy.

[austastar]

Magnesium will burn in CO2. School science teacher put burning Magnesium ribbon into a flask of CO2 and it pulled the O2 out of the gas, leaving black spots of Carbon spattered on the glass.
TAS Fire Service keeps bags of dry sand in a warm area for metal fires, Magnesium can do similar with H2O but rather than little spatters of Carbon, it releases the Hydrogen which if ignited has a strong affinity for O2 in the air and can be quite explosive.
Cheers