Starter motor playing up, again.

[Bohica]

My starter motor, which did not start, was subjected to percussive maintenance. (hitting it with a hammer) That worked until today, Well the first time I hit it with the hammer it started. Then when I wanted to go on a test drive, no amount of hitting it with a hammer did any good. I think I have 4 options.
1/ Go through all the other tests, earth, etc.
2/ Clean up the contacts etc.
3/ Fit a new repair kit
4/ Replace the starter motor.


Time is an issue as I am going to Beechworth next week with the LROCV.
Comments?

When the key is turned, there is no click from the starter motor.

Where can I get a repair kit from in a hurry? Or starter motor?

[V8Ian]

Firstly you need to determine the failure, wiring, solenoid or starter.
Try bridging the solenoid, after checking the wiring.

[Tins]

Easiest place to check is the relay. Seem to remember having this conversation before. Relay #2. You can bridge the bigger contacts in the socket. Just make sure you have the car in Park, or neutral in your case.

[Bohica]

Results of diagnostics

Battery is at 11.8V, It is on the charger
Starter motor voltage is also 11.8V
Resistance between negative terminal and engine block is 0.5 Ohms, it is meant to be less than 0.2 Ohms.
Voltage at exciter when key turned to start 0.0V At least the starter motor can stay in. I am inclined to think that the lead near the starter motor is damaged some hoe, hence hammering resolved the issue in the short term. However it is easy to check the relay. I need to work out what wire comes out of the relay that goes to the starter.
If I run a jumper from the battery to the starter motor, bypassing the relay and the existing exciter wire, it should start.

[BradC]

Resistance between negative terminal and engine block is 0.5 Ohms, it is meant to be less than 0.2 Ohms.

What are you measuring that with and where did that spec come from?

Most multimeters are crap below a couple of ohms, even if you null out the lead resistance. For sub 1 ohm measurements you really need a 4 wire meter.

An average starter motor will draw a couple of hundred Amps when stalled. A couple of hundred Amps (let's be overly kind and say 200) over 0.2 Ohms is 40V. So if you have 200 milliohms between your battery and your block it's going to be a non-starter.



If I run a jumper from the battery to the starter motor, bypassing the relay and the existing exciter wire, it should start.

Absolutely. Just short the solenoid contact on the starter to the battery wire with a screwdriver.

[Bohica]

What are you measuring that with and where did that spec come from?

Most multimeters are crap below a couple of ohms, even if you null out the lead resistance. For sub 1 ohm measurements you really need a 4 wire meter.

An average starter motor will draw a couple of hundred Amps when stalled. A couple of hundred Amps (let's be overly kind and say 200) over 0.2 Ohms is 40V. So if you have 200 milliohms between your battery and your block it's going to be a non-starter.



Absolutely. Just short the solenoid contact on the starter to the battery wire with a screwdriver.

Measured with an inexpensive multi meter and from the internet.

[350RRC]

Not saying this is the cause of your problem but why is the actual ignition switch never looked at as a cause of some of these electrical problems with D2's?

They just have copper dimples inside that wear / flatten out a tiny bit when the key is turned. They wear out in RRC's and other vehicles.

I had this starting problem tears ago and it took ages to figure out. Had a starting prob with my Courier ute, got the RACV, big heart starter applied for no effect, he diagnosed dead starter. I pulled the actual switch out and unclipped the plastic switch cover and pressed out the dimples and all has been good............and that was 5 years ago.

It's not as easy with an LR switch because the cover is alloy.

However in your case I'd be checking there is power from the actual switch to the relay and power from the relay to the solenoid when the switch is turned to the start position.

cheers, DL

[Bohica]

The ignition switch, or barrel was replaced about 7 years ago.
The lack of any volts on the exciter wire is th smoking gun.

[Bohica]

I shorted the exciter plug to the 12V from the battery at the starter motor. After ensuring that the car was in neutral, it was, but I could hear Tins saying "put it in neutral" It never hurst to check.
The starter motor started. Woo Hooo. I swapped over relays 1 and 2 no start. The relay is good and the problem is the wire. From TAVE the wire looks red with a brown stripe. It is brown with a red stripe. I just looked at what was on the screen. The wire come from connector C0571-2 I am guessing that the -2 means to second slot. Anyways there was only one wire coming out of C0571 and it was the middle slot out of three, or number 2. I have bought cable and will make up a lead to bypass the dud wire. ut that is a tomorrow job.

[AK83]

...... From TAVE the wire looks red with a brown stripe. It is brown with a red stripe. I just looked at what was on the screen. The wire come from connector C0571-2 I am guessing that the -2 means to second slot. Anyways there was only one wire coming out of C0571 and it was the middle slot out of three, or number 2. I have bought cable and will make up a lead to bypass the dud wire. ut that is a tomorrow job.

Definitely shows Brown/Red in RAVE(that I have). If you look at the small markings they have for the wires, it shows NR, 2.0. N=Brown, R=Red(stripe), 2.0 = 2.0mm wire diameter(1.5 would equate to 1.5mm diameter wire, and so forth).

Have you checked fuse/fusible link No12? This is what gives the main power from Pos to the Brn/Red to the starter too.

There are a few fuses in the starting system. The energiser coil power for the relay comes from Fuse 23 in the pass fusebox. So even tho the relay may be good, if there is a break in the power to the coil, from ign switch to fuse23(pass) to power for the starter relay coil .. then relay will not activate.

Do you have test light? .. or just a multimeter?

Unless you have a helper, it's hard to be in the engine bay and hit the starter at the same time. But what you would want to do(even with multimeter) .. is ground the meter or test light, set the power lead into terminal 85 of the starter relay seat in the engine fuse box, and see if you get power/bolts showing when you hit the starter(pos III). If no light/volts, then fuse 23(pass) or wire problem between starter and starter coil.

And this assumes you have already checked power to terminal 30 of that relay seat too(this comes from that 30A fusible link(LINK12) fuse.

Not sure you're knowledge on the electrical diagrams, a fuse with a cross type symbol between the two points = blade fuse. A fuse with a S-type symbol between the two points = fusible link type fuse(small square box type fuse).
There are a few fuse-links in the eng fuse box rated at 30a that you could use to test. The link(12) for the starter relay is the second on the left as you stand at the drivers quarter panel.

For example, FL13(the one most left, and left of the starter fuse/link) is for main lights, you could tempily pull that one and use for the starter if FL12 is blown. But remember, easy test for FL12 is if you have constant power at term 30 on the starter relay seat. Term 87 is from the relay to the starter(ie. Br/Red) wire while you crank the starter.

[PhilipA]

You know that 90% of starter problems on a D2 are the solenoid contacts just wearing out and can be fixed with a very cheap kit. The main angst is getting to the starter top mounting bolt which is usually tightened to 1 million foot pounds and can only be accessed by a 3/8 socket with wobble drive.
Regards PhilipA

[Bohica]

Definitely shows Brown/Red in RAVE(that I have). If you look at the small markings they have for the wires, it shows NR, 2.0. N=Brown, R=Red(stripe), 2.0 = 2.0mm wire diameter(1.5 would equate to 1.5mm diameter wire, and so forth).


So that is what NR means! It made no sense to me.


Have you checked fuse/fusible link No12? This is what gives the main power from Pos to the Brn/Red to the starter too.

The relay clicks, I'll check this tomorrow. ( I put diff in today!)


There are a few fuses in the starting system. The energiser coil power for the relay comes from Fuse 23 in the pass fusebox. So even tho the relay may be good, if there is a break in the power to the coil, from ign switch to fuse23(pass) to power for the starter relay coil .. then relay will not activate.

Do you have test light? .. or just a multimeter?

Just a multimeter. I have a helper



Unless you have a helper, it's hard to be in the engine bay and hit the starter at the same time. But what you would want to do(even with multimeter) .. is ground the meter or test light, set the power lead into terminal 85 of the starter relay seat in the engine fuse box, and see if you get power/bolts showing when you hit the starter(pos III). If no light/volts, then fuse 23(pass) or wire problem between starter and starter coil.

And this assumes you have already checked power to terminal 30 of that relay seat too(this comes from that 30A fusible link(LINK12) fuse.

Not sure you're knowledge on the electrical diagrams, a fuse with a cross type symbol between the two points = blade fuse. A fuse with a S-type symbol between the two points = fusible link type fuse(small square box type fuse).
There are a few fuse-links in the eng fuse box rated at 30a that you could use to test. The link(12) for the starter relay is the second on the left as you stand at the drivers quarter panel.


Where on RAVE do I find Terminal 30 etc?
The different fuse type on the diagram is new to me. thanks


For example, FL13(the one most left, and left of the starter fuse/link) is for main lights, you could tempily pull that one and use for the starter if FL12 is blown. But remember, easy test for FL12 is if you have constant power at term 30 on the starter relay seat. Term 87 is from the relay to the starter(ie. Br/Red) wire while you crank the starter.[/QUOTE]

[AK83]

.....


Where on RAVE do I find Terminal 30 etc?
The different fuse type on the diagram is new to me. thanks


.....

If you're looking in the circuit diagrams, you see the relays drawn as a small box. It has the title above it ... starter-relay (R102).
Inside the small box diagram you see some numbers(30, 87a, 87, 85, 86) .... some relays don't have 87a, and in some rare situations have different numbers completely.

But the starter relay has those 5 numbers inside the box diagram. It has the contact switch for power(30 to 87a and or 87), and it also has a rectangle symbol for 85 -> 86. This one is the coil, energiser coil. That's the trigger, the circuit that activates/deactivates the main power through(30->87).

[Bohica]

If you're looking in the circuit diagrams, you see the relays drawn as a small box. It has the title above it ... starter-relay (R102).
Inside the small box diagram you see some numbers(30, 87a, 87, 85, 86) .... some relays don't have 87a, and in some rare situations have different numbers completely.

But the starter relay has those 5 numbers inside the box diagram. It has the contact switch for power(30 to 87a and or 87), and it also has a rectangle symbol for 85 -> 86. This one is the coil, energiser coil. That's the trigger, the circuit that activates/deactivates the main power through(30->87).


After increasing the magnification many times, I could see the numbers! thanks.

[Bohica]

Fuses 12 and 24 are fine, so is fusible link 12. I took them out and measured the resistance, just in case it looks good but is buggered.
I can start the car by jumpering the exciter wire. If I try to do this two times in a row, the engine will run for less than a second. If I lock the car, unlock the car and try again, it will start.
Nor sure where to go from here.

[AK83]

...... If I try to do this two times in a row, the engine will run for less than a second. If I lock the car, unlock the car and try again, it will start.
Nor sure where to go from here.

So starter motor works using key?
Or not?
When you say jump the exciter wire, do you mean the down at the starter motor?

The coil in the starter relay goes to ground via the BCU. I don't fully understand the BCU electronical system, but maybe by jumpering the solenoid and not via the BCU, the BCU thinks the car is being hotwired, activating the immobiliser and hence you get the motor shutdown after the second try. Locking/unlocking the car then un-immobilises it again.

Just a guess.

Maybe turn off immo via nanocom while you are testing, so you don't get immo active.

With the starter relay out ... locate terminals 85 and 86 and pop a test light or multimeter into those terminals. Hit the starter and watch if you have power across them too. Note that even tho you have a happy starter relay, working starter solenoid, it'll all be no good if you have wiring issues at any of the starter relay ports.

[Bohica]

So starter motor works using key?
Or not?
When you say jump the exciter wire, do you mean the down at the starter motor?

The coil in the starter relay goes to ground via the BCU. I don't fully understand the BCU electronical system, but maybe by jumpering the solenoid and not via the BCU, the BCU thinks the car is being hotwired, activating the immobiliser and hence you get the motor shutdown after the second try. Locking/unlocking the car then un-immobilises it again.

Just a guess.


That is a good guess. It makes sense I'll turn off the Immobiliser via the Nanocom.


Maybe turn off immo via nanocom while you are testing, so you don't get immo active.

With the starter relay out ... locate terminals 85 and 86 and pop a test light or multimeter into those terminals. Hit the starter and watch if you have power across them too. Note that even tho you have a happy starter relay, working starter solenoid, it'll all be no good if you have wiring issues at any of the starter relay ports.

Thanks. for the ideas.

[Bohica]

So starter motor works using key?
Or not?
When you say jump the exciter wire, do you mean the down at the starter motor?

The coil in the starter relay goes to ground via the BCU. I don't fully understand the BCU electronical system, but maybe by jumpering the solenoid and not via the BCU, the BCU thinks the car is being hotwired, activating the immobiliser and hence you get the motor shutdown after the second try. Locking/unlocking the car then un-immobilises it again.

Just a guess.

Maybe turn off immo via nanocom while you are testing, so you don't get immo active.

With the starter relay out ... locate terminals 85 and 86 and pop a test light or multimeter into those terminals. Hit the starter and watch if you have power across them too. Note that even tho you have a happy starter relay, working starter solenoid, it'll all be no good if you have wiring issues at any of the starter relay ports.

I finally tested the pins on the fuse/relay board and they all checked out ok. I put the fuel pump relay into the starter motor and it started. I swapped the relay out with the starter motor relay and it started. I t started several times. I am at a loss to explain why. I had cut the exciter cable to jump the starter, these now have a crimped spade connector, if I have starter motor problems again it will be easy to jump start the car. Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

[AK83]

I finally tested the pins on the fuse/relay board and they all checked out ok. I put the fuel pump relay into the starter motor and it started. I swapped the relay out with the starter motor relay and it started. I t started several times. ....

This could be due to the contacts where the relays seat into could be touchy. Still making contact, but after some time, they could become tenuous and give the same non start result.
Manhandlng the relays can strain the contacts, so when you remove/refit, or even just wiggle the relay can make the connection again. Could be corrosion, water, mud, grime ... only way to know for sure is to remove the fusebox(engine bay) look underneath for any suspicious looking wire connections.

[Bohica]

Yes, it failed for a reason, I'll be looking for a spare fuse box. They have them on ebay!

[Bohica]

This could be due to the contacts where the relays seat into could be touchy. Still making contact, but after some time, they could become tenuous and give the same non start result.
Manhandlng the relays can strain the contacts, so when you remove/refit, or even just wiggle the relay can make the connection again. Could be corrosion, water, mud, grime ... only way to know for sure is to remove the fusebox(engine bay) look underneath for any suspicious looking wire connections.

I have bought a new fuse box. I was not going to install it but... I am having Three Amigos problems. Change the hub, still there, further investigation tells me that one of the 12V supplies for the ABS ECU comes from that fuse box. The fuse box might be the cause of both errors.

[AK83]

I once had trouble with the fusebox on the D2 too. Can't recall which exact relay(maybe the AC fan) car was in brothers possession at the time.

Connectors plug into the underside, look for rust, etc.
IIRC you can separate the fuse box body and see it guts, and make sure no rust in there too.
Also wires/pins in the connectors too, look for dodgy stuff there.

Hopefully fixes your issues.

[Bohica]

I have put in the newer fuse box, fault come back after clearing it.