Children and Four Wheeling

[cewilson]

I noticed in a thread in Technical that a couple of members here are concerned about four wheel driving with young children. Thought I'd put the topic up here for discussion.

My views are that it is safe. I have had all 3 of my children in my Defender from birth onwards. They have been in approved seats and strapped in everytime we moved, regardless of distance travelled. I realise that some of the areas we go into can be quite rough - but you reduce your speed to counter that problem. Why travel flat out when all you're doing is making a rougher ride and most likely causing more problems to your vehicle at the same time.

I have heard a lot of people say that four wheel driving is dangerous. I am not going to refute that - but I am going to say that the only reason it is dangerous is normally because of the driver. A lot of people do not know their limitations, or the limitations of their vehicle - or have just never been shown. It constantly amazes me that people do not know how to do a stall-start recovery - to me that is one of the most important things to know.

My children have been to some of the best spots this country has to offer. My eldest is five and a half years old. There isn't a single state or territory he hasn't been in. He has seen more stuff than a lot of people I work with. From snow in Tassie and the High Country, to the tropics in Far North Queensland and the Territory to the Simpson Desert. I realise that he may not remember most of the trips - but we sure as hell have all of the photos. And I know when he goes to school the stories he tells are quite interesting. And to top all of that off - I believe that they learn more out on the road meeting people and seeing places than they ever would sitting at home.

I will admit that travelling with kids is a hardship a lot of the time. It isn't easy and it took us a while to get used to it - especially learning the little tricks to keep them happy. But they got used to it - and I can now travel quite a lot of places and not hear one grumble from the back seat. Hell, even if I go into town now days the boy is asking 'when are we going to the hills again Dad.'

I think that this topic is going to come down to each persons personal preference. The above is my opinion, but I am very interested in what other people do think. On top of that - do we wrap the kids up in cotton wool too much now days. I am probably what most people would call a hard dad. I don't cuddle the kids all of the time, and I let them make their own mistakes. It was the way I was brought up, and I think it works. Don't get me wrong, you'd never get a more devoted father than I am to my children. I just want them to grow up with some decent values, and not to be sooks either.

Cheers
Chris

[Milton477]

Yes Yes Yes I agree!!

As kids in Souf Effrica we spent many happy hours as a family on 4x4 trips & outings. You certainly get to see the world from the other end. I have tried to pass on the experience to my kids but here in the UK it is hairy assed blokes in surplus military gear that tend to go 4x4.

On more than 1 occasion on an outing here I have had all the women & kids on the outing in my Rangie. On a weekend outing to Salisbury Plane there were 20 +- vehicles with my wife & 2 kids plus another wife. About 3 years ago I asked the chairman of the club to which I belonged why families were not encouraged to come along. His words to me were "4x4s & kids do not mix" I have never been back. He has no idea what he has missed in his little life.

So stuff the UK 4x4 scene we are headed for Brisvegas next month where I am sure that there is a Landrover product with my name on it waiting for me. The kids are going to get educated!

[Jojo]

Offroading/4x4 driving can -and in my opinion there is no reason why it shouldn't- be a family event. Of course you will have to adjust to the youngster's needs but as a responsible parent you are doing it anyway. I love to take the children along (my wife too, of course:)), they even helped me out in tricky situations:cool:.
My five cent...
Cheers

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Have a look at the photo! My 18 month old daughter about 50km north of the french line :) Her jumper is covered in diesel, she's dirty. I tell you... she looks like she is being totally tortured! :D :D

While she won't remember it per se, I believe what they learn from it (family values) they do remember. I think it's so valuable that next year we are heading off for 2 months with what will be then a 3.5mo and a 12 month old. We'll be going through the Simpson again, and up the canning. :)

The only thing I will say is that it does place additional workload on the parents, and there is a bit extra to plan. It's worth it though :)

[disconut]

Hi all,
Just feel compelled to put my 2 cents worth in here. We only have one daughter, (she's 31 now), but I put her on a motorcycle at 6 months, sitting on the fuel tank of my trail bike riding the river banks, then her mum had her on the back of her scooter at around aged 4. She had her own helmet and riding suit and was secured to her mum by a big luggage belt. A topbox kept her safe from behind. (we never had a 4x4). The thing is, kids love to be involved in things their parents do. Camping, caravaning, 4x4 whatever. Show them the bush and how to care for it, and to respect and enjoy the wildlife. They will grow up all the better for it. I admire the parents who take the time and effort to do this. Shining examples would have to be the Irwin kids. What a great start in life for them. Onya Steve and Terri.

Trev.

[JDNSW]

I agree with you - my grandchildren (currently 1,5,8) see plenty of "four-wheel-driving" as it is difficult to reach my place in a conventional car.
I would point out that current four wheel drives offroad probably give a better ride than cars of fifty years ago gave on what passed for highways then - and there were no child seats or seat belts then. I can remember travelling as a small child in with the camp gear in the back of the model T truck (up front against the cab).
As with all driving, the safety of four wheel driving is almost entirely in the hands of the driver.
As far as motoring safety goes - a few weeks ago I was told by a member of the NSW police that in this state the number of deaths from suicide passed those from vehicles in 1991, and the gap has increased ever since. And this is without even considering the number of single vehicle, driver only or "car crossed into path of truck" deaths that were probably suicide but it can't be proved. This does suggest that some of the effort being put into road safety could usefully be put into mental health.

And I do think there is a tendency to overprotect our children - one of the results is they grow up feeling invulnerable, and unfortunately a lot of them find they are not when they get behind a steering wheel, all too frequently in a permanent way. (No, I did not lose any children that way, but almost lost both a few months after the older one got his licence, one getting a broken collarbone, the other a fractured pelvis and sundry cuts and bruises all round).
John

[MickG]

If the parents are happy then the kids are happy! I get so much enjoyment out of 4x4 driving, camping, exploring and generally being outdoors...this is surely going to rub off on my kids. When I smile, they smile, simple as that! I am a member of a very active 4x4 club that encourages kids and family as much as we can, and as I see it, it's more "quality time" spent with my kids doing what I love.
Mine are only 2 & 1 but we have the photos and you can rest assured that our family will have plenty more adventures with us all together enjoying it.
4x4 is a dangerous sport indeed, especially some of the trips we head out on but for that very reason it is very safe. We take the proper prescausions and make sure that everyone in the party makes it home safely. When my kids are in the car I will always put them first when considering tackling certain tracks and will always honestly evaluate mine and the cars limitations.,,,,not much fun for the kids when you roll it i'm sure and would probably scar them for life!!

Bottom line, if you are sensible and enjoy getting out there, then this is the tiome when your kids should be with you. Also being in a club that promotes kids and family, the kids have a great time where ever we are.

[DirtyDawg]

There is 4wding and 4wding...guys that raise the suspension, modify diffs 34" plus tyres are not going to mosey along roughish tracks at 3kms per hour..I take my kids out with me in the bush but I don't take them on out trips to harvey as the 4wding is different.. family trips are great I know I have one..but if you take a 4yr old or younger on the type of driving that happens like when we go down to harvey then you would be deemed irresponsible..no matter how good you think you are your child physiology remains constant..they do not have the muscular strength to endure the sudden directional changes of a 4wd going over extreme rough terrain. Honey coat it all you want, but their your kids, your responsibility, If you want to make your conscience feel better so be it..but at what cost:mad:IMHO

[dobbo]

The other day I walked into the lounge room to discover every pillow and cushion in the house on the floor and my two boys riding sit on push vehicles all over them, when I ask what they were doing my daughter the eldest and usually the co-ordinator of the group stated "We're playing Land Rovers dad"
I couldn't stay angry so I joined in.

We all play the waving game and allthough the youngest is too little to differenciate between a Landie and any other 4wd it's fun for all of us.

I love taking the kids bush, they love it too but I do agree with Dawg about the dangers and the lack of neck muscles on little kids. When the going gets rough, the car is in a recovery position or driving a steep accent or decent, the kids are taken out, moved to a safe place (with my wife) and stay out of the car until the obstical has been traversed.

As a family we are hooked, but every safety precaution is made and met to make our days driving the most comfortable and safe for our family.

[dobbo]

And yes as Dawg has just said Tuff Trips and Kids do not mix.

[Bushie]

OK so we are looking at different things.

4WD touring and highly modified 4WDs, I think the general thrust of the argument has been towards 4WD touring, as being safe and I totally agree.

We do however as a society tend to cotton wrap our kids in my opinion, you need to weigh up all the aspects of what you are doing with kids (not just 4WDing).

Theres no real need to let kids stop you 4WDing and camping if thats what you want to do - it just involves a bit more preparation and thought.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2009/05/211.jpg

6 months at Dalhousie 1989



Martyn

[George130]

I take my eldest out with me and If my wife comes then the youngest comes to. Eldest is almost 5 youngest is 2. They love it. Lachlan always askes when we are next going bumpy and practices the recoveries with the ride on toys and anything he can find to act as a snatch strap or winch cable. And ACE he loves you BBQ weekends. THe club I joined localy is a family orientated club and has kids on every trip. Simple rules If they are in the vehicle then they must be straped in. If they are out then they are with me, the wife or an adult when out on the tracks. You can't trust a child that young to know when to stay back.

[Relay]

The joys of being young is that I can -still- remember going 4x4ing with my folks, even if it is a little hazy. Hell, my first accident was when I was still a bub and my mother rolled one of our landies coming down Martinsville hill, back in the days when it was still dirt. As a young kid, I remember the adventures, and walking a whole lot because it was too dangerous to be in the car at the time. My father was just a wee bit psychotic according to my mother. Needless to say, that's where all my fun memories are from. I remember the driving the ol' convict road here in NSW, something which you cant do in it's entirety anymore. I have picture memories of me being propped in my child-saftey seat with every pillow available stuffed in beside me to keep me upright. My family times were when we went 4x4ing; and perhaps that's where my appreciation of LRs started too, since my dad was crazy about 'em. We had a never say die attitude and for the most part the car'd live up to it. There is -nothing- more special than these memories, than the places I saw through a child's eyes. I can still remember sitting in three states at once at Cameron's Corner. It's something I treasure. Still a kid at heart I suppose. And I can still smile, thinking about a recent 4x4 day I went out with dobbo, and heard one of his kids sayin' over the radio, "Can we go on the rollercoaster again Daddy?" I assume it was in reference to the drainage humps on the descent. Those moments are priceless.

[moose]

When me and my bro were toddlers we used to love going away with mum and dad, every year we went to a different place on this fine land (in a landy!) My earliest memories of christmas were out back of gawd-knows-where. I was always very proud of the fact I had seen more of this country than all the kids at school (and most of their parents)

As was already said, there is 4x4ing and 4x4ing. For the most part the sort of 4x4ing that gets done by the average weekend warrior in his jacked up nissan is completely unnecessary and only serves to tear up bushland and get the rest of us a bad name, so no, kids probably don't need to see that.

Otherwise, :thumbsup: from me.

[numpty]

I agree. Small (or large) children should not stop you enjoying 4WD touring...or anything come to that. As a family you should be able to be flexible enough to adapt to the situation.

Ours started camping at 6weeks old.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

At Kings Canyon aged 18months 1985
Most of this trip was done on Numpty's back...even Ayres Rock!!

[CraigE]

The other day I walked into the lounge room to discover every pillow and cushion in the house on the floor and my two boys riding sit on push vehicles all over them, when I ask what they were doing my daughter the eldest and usually the co-ordinator of the group stated "We're playing Land Rovers dad"
I couldn't stay angry so I joined in.

We all play the waving game and allthough the youngest is too little to differenciate between a Landie and any other 4wd it's fun for all of us.

I love taking the kids bush, they love it too but I do agree with Dawg about the dangers and the lack of neck muscles on little kids. When the going gets rough, the car is in a recovery position or driving a steep accent or decent, the kids are taken out, moved to a safe place (with my wife) and stay out of the car until the obstical has been traversed.

As a family we are hooked, but every safety precaution is made and met to make our days driving the most comfortable and safe for our family.
I like that. Have done it myself. On a couple of occassions some of my diecast model collection has come down onto the boys rug/mat city and me, my wife, my son and daughter, my brother and sister in law and nephew have played Torana's, monaro's and GT Fords with a couple of Disco's thrown in.
My kids have been 4x4 driving with us since babies. It all depends on what you call hard or extreme driving. Our kids come on most trips etc. I would not put them in an extreme situation where they might get hurt, but they love some of the extreme hills etc. Not much different to a ride at the show if they are belted in properly.
Look at Len Beadell, used to pack his kids in tea boxes in the old series Landie when travelling.
High speed risky activities may be different.
:)

[Ace]

Couldnt agree more Chris i have wanted to get marcos out since the minute he was born but Stacey considered him to young, i am only now being allowed to take him out on my own now and he is nearly 2. Provided the driver is sensible and isnt trying to brake some sort of speed record it can be done safely. Matt

[seqfisho]

Our youngest (now 7) started at 6 weeks and his first trip was into the Watagans in the Rangie and got to say that he loved it, we did have the head support cushion in the baby capsule, but he was also a vetran of most 4wd areas between the NSW mid north coast and south coast including out west before he could walk, his older brother and sister (17 & 13) also started early in their life and still enjoy going offroad when they come and visit.

[Andrewpv01]

My kids are slightly older - 9,11,13, but I can't go out without them:). It's not just the 4x4ing, but the camping and other activities as well.
I have to take the kids and SWMBO - it makes it a family thing, which had to be good when wee spend so little time at home:cool::D

Andrew

[one_iota]

Chris.... what a great thread started:)

I bought my Land Rover for the express reason of spending some "quality time" with my kids after the marriage disintegrated.

Seeing special places together.(they are now 21 and 18)

In a couple of weeks time I will be leading a trip with them and a couple of their mates (and fathers): great stuff.

[crump]

and there always good to throw under a wheel when you cant find enuff logs or rocks.:D

[one_iota]

and there always good to throw under a wheel when you cant find enuff logs or rocks.:D

You have to get them out of the Land Rover first...the DVD player is anti recovery gear.:D

[dobbo]

It seams to me that this thread has divided into tourers V'S Tuff truck drivers

[DirtyDawg]

Some of my best child hood memories (about 12 yrs plus) was in the back of a ser III ute gunning up and down sand dunes, in retrospect it was very dangerous and fool hardy on my Dads part but things seemed different then.. from about 6yrs I do take my children on unlimited 4x4ing but under that they are restricted to softer touring/camping stuff.. although the more extreme stuff is fun.. the empty vehicle isn't:(

[Sith]

My kids love it ! but having said that I would love one of those dvd players in the back for the travel to and from spots .....to lull the "are we there yet, he looked at me , look out your own window" senario that quietly drives the wife mad :p

[camel_landy]

Hmmm....

As quite a few of you will know last year my young family (3ry old & 5yr old at the time) & I bounced around some of the nether regions of Oz in our 110... Including some of the the more 'extreme' stuff. IMO, it's all perfectly safe (well... As safe as a motorsport can be) and my kids thouroughly enjoy it... Though my little boy does get a little nervous at times.

What I will say is that if you are going to be sticking the kids in the truck & bouncing them around... Try & minimize their exposure until they're 18mths old. Up to that age, the skull hasn't quite developed/strengthened fully as plates in their skull are still fusing themselves together. From there, try & get them sitting in something comfortable that will offer head protection/restraint - Reccaro make an excellent child seat (called the 'Start') but unfortunately for most of you guys, it's not legal for use in Oz. :confused:

As an asside... The kids love watching the Camel Trophy DVDs (spotting the 'Mummy cars' & 'Daddy cars'). They also announced to me the other day that my boy wants to become an off-road instructor and my daughter wants to be a motorbike instructor. :D

M

[weeds]

i think it just come down to common sense, just a basic risk assessment

not that my rig is set up for hardcore, if it was hard core trips normally have a leader who would dicide if kids were allowed

some touring can be just as dangerous as extreme day trips, hitting a pot hole/wash out covered in bulldust at speed can and does cause rollovers

[Martin]

I have taken my children on numerous 4Wd trips all over the place, and they love to come. I am not likely to do anything so rough that it would endanger a passenger, or my vehicle anyway, as I am not hard core.

I have three great boys of 4 6 and 9, and they love to come. I think children spend too much time in doors with video games, and not enough time with nature and the out doors.

In the bush the rules are easier for children to manage - "don't go in long grass becasue of snakes", is much easier for them to understand then "don't put your dirty hands on the wall". With fewer rules and greater freedom, I find my children best behaved and most happy when we are on some wind swept beach, or atop some rocky outcrop. As I usually work 50-60 hours per week, this time is also very important family time for us.

[dobbo]

I have taken my children on numerous 4Wd trips all over the place, and they love to come. I am not likely to do anything so rough that it would endanger a passenger, or my vehicle anyway, as I am not hard core.

I have three great boys of 4 6 and 9, and they love to come. I think children spend too much time in doors with video games, and not enough time with nature and the out doors.

In the bush the rules are easier for children to manage - "don't go in long grass becasue of snakes", is much easier for them to understand then "don't put your dirty hands on the wall". With fewer rules and greater freedom, I find my children best behaved and most happy when we are on some wind swept beach, or atop some rocky outcrop. As I usually work 50-60 hours per week, this time is also very important family time for us.


I totally agree with you, the older kids fine, but the young ones under 2.5yrs, I personally am not too happy about like DirtyDawg states the neck muscles are not developed yet, It's personal preference but you have to consider all possibilities. It also determines what you yourself classify as 4WDing.

[Martin]

I agree Mat, I have travelled just about all of the flinders PARs and pay tracks, Robe / Beachport / Canunda national park more times than I can shake a stick at, coorong, border track a number of times, Stockton Beach, Fraser island (always west side), oodnadata track, painted desert etc, and I am planning a simpson trip next year, and would not think of going without them.

Having said that - I have seen a coffs harbour video, and don't think I take them up somthing like that!

[stevo68]

My kids ( (9yr old girl, 8 yr old boy) love it, ever since we bought the D3 and have been going off road, camping etc, plus are now super landy fanatics. My daughter has on occasion opted out of the car on some parts we have done which is cool, but other than that we have had a ball. Im yet to take the 3 1/2 yr old yet or even the missus. That trip will most likely be an easy one. Like the consensus, if kids are in the car, driving to what is sensible taking into account their age.

Regards

Stevo

[Martin]

Good on you Stevo. My wife got fed up of staying home, so came with us - she is now hooked too. She used to hate my Jeep wrangler, as it rocked and rolled all over the place, but she feels very safe in the Fender. Every trip she also practices her driving skills herself just for safety. It is always wise to have two drivers that can drive you out of where you have driven yourself into...

[wardy1]

My 'kids' are now 26 and 23, one married the other out of the nest. Whenever they are at home with their friends the conversation ALWAYS ends up at the places they've been and the experiences they've had.... how RICH it all is. The photo albums come out and the looks of amazement at what hides away from the tarmac that our kids saw as youngsters is truly something we behold. We all need to be conscious of the fact that our wonderful government has no idea how to care for the bush, so they lock it away form the next generation and all those that follow. Get YOUR kids out there..... GET THEM ANGRY ABOUT LOSING IT!

[kaistuff]

If I try to go with out MUDBOY my 6 year old I get in to trouble he loves the ruff stuff. :) :) :) :twisted: :D

[hiline]

my boys love it as well :D

they don't like being left behind ;)

as for camping and alike thats a different story:angel:
there's no way i would get out the door alone

been taking them by myself since the youngest boy was 18months old
he's now 8yrs old


like wardy the kids can tell you some great camp fire stories and jokes:eek:
some i dont like to hear ;)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

If the fuel prices don't stop us going out there.. the government will!