Manual lover wins the auto/manual fight...(rant posting)

[Blknight.aus]

Ok perhaps the title is a little exxagerated and Im writing this as a rant I do acknowlodge that autos have their place but I finally got the idiot instructor at work to acknowlegde that Autos are not the be all and end all of transmissions...

It was a simple dissagreement over a couple of key issues that for me make manuals better than autos

1. manuals will work without oil (till they seize)
2. you can push start any manual
3. there are more critical componants in an auto than a manual

The auto was from an m113a1 apc and the manual used was a 4 speed from a rover.

with an auto in a test bed and a manual on the floor the argument began.

the 3rd point was easily proved, I pulled the syncros, the layshaft, the gears for 1,2,3, and reverse put the box in 4th and got drive.

I pulled one little gear out of the middle of a planetry and got nothing. we then had a discussion on what would happen if the first gear clutch pack was removed, the first gear planetry carrier, the first gear planetries, the first gear annulus, second gear etc, etc, etc apparently almost any missing part would result in no drive.

fight 3 to me.

the second was simple push started a landrover 110 by myself.

let him turn over the output shaft of the gearbox in the auto testbed till it turned the inputshaft. At 1100rpm he started to get drive on the input given that that equates to 35+kph... yeah you can push start a tx100 sort of..

called that one a draw. but I think I won. Could you push a 110 at 35khp on the flat? remeber the m113a1 weighs in at 11 and a bit tons and is on tracks.


The first test was the most fun

With an auto on the test bed I came up with a simple scenario.

"Youve been driving cross country in the m113a1 and stopped, shut down and are doing an obs post, over the hill a big tank with bad intentions towards you is coming. the turret is turning in your direction and you have about 15 seconds to get moving to try an make the nearest cover. Unknown to you the main pipe to the TX cooler has split from its union." I then disconnected the oil cooler return line from the test bed and routed it back to the storage tank for the bed.

"I'll pretend Im the tank when I start counting you try to get the output shaft to drive, when i get to 15 im going to shoot you" It didnt drive. his next argument was that if it was already running it would keep going...

so everything was reconnected the tx was set up and running and the drain bung was removed... It ran for about 45 seconds, then although it still had main pressure it dropped into first gear then stopped altogether as main pressure dropped off.

For the manual side of it I just walked over to the sectionalised manual transmission, put it in gear and with holes all over the box to allow viewing of the gears turned the input shaft while he held the output. when the he couldnt hold the output shaft he conceeded that arguement.

Id call it a definate 2/3 victory to me yeah?

as I said tounge in cheek in another post elsewhere

"I dont know who won the hill today but I do know this, They werent driving an auto."


Some how I dont think Im going to get good marks for Attitude in this part of the course...

[rangieman]

mate your going to cop it fair in ya face with this one:eek:
me thinks you are a **** stirrer:p

[Slunnie]

While making a hasty 15sec getaway up and over a protection hill, the auto drives up and over without a problem. The manual stalls on a tricky section during the ascent, tips onto its side and gets blown into 1,000,000 pieces by the engauging tank. :twisted:

The other manual stalled during the getaway and was also blown to smitherines.

The last manual while parked also suffered a clutch failure, much like the auto which blew a hose while parked, and both vehicles were also blown into the spare parts factory. :firedevil:

[Bigbjorn]

While making a hasty 15sec getaway up and over a protection hill, the auto drives up and over without a problem. The manual stalls on a tricky section during the ascent, tips onto its side and gets blown into 1,000,000 pieces by the engauging tank. :twisted:

The other manual stalled during the getaway and was also blown to smitherines.

The last manual while parked also suffered a clutch failure, much like the auto which blew a hose while parked, and both vehicles were also blown into the spare parts factory. :firedevil:

Now I will get it in the neck with this. The ill-educated, barely literate, poorly trained, unwilling, disinterested, swaddie drivers conscripted into war service from the dole queue, will stuff anything mechanical. The autos. will generally live better and longer in this type of service. Ask any fleet manager. I will now head for the bomb shelter before the missiles arrive from the overpaid military pensioners.

[rangieman]

BOOM!

[Blknight.aus]

While making a hasty 15sec getaway up and over a protection hill, the auto drives up and over without a problem. The manual stalls on a tricky section during the ascent, tips onto its side and gets blown into 1,000,000 pieces by the engauging tank. :twisted:

The other manual stalled during the getaway and was also blown to smitherines.

The last manual while parked also suffered a clutch failure, much like the auto which blew a hose while parked, and both vehicles were also blown into the spare parts factory. :firedevil:

ya see slunnie this is why we dont let nancy boy auto discovery drivers play with real hardware, you always want to prove that your comfort wannabe 4x4;s are just as good as real landrovers. Fair enough your torque converter lets you climb better but I would have used my manual to drive AROUND the hill instead of over it thus not presenting such a large target to the oncoming tank nor overloading the drivetrain...

but then again if the tank was from 1 Armd Regt they probabley couldnt even hit your ass while it was stationary...:p

Brian looks like youve nailed the description of auto drivers (particularly the idiot instructor at work) on the head.

ill-educated, barely literate, poorly trained, unwilling, disinterested, swaddie drivers
remeber you said it first :P

and to Rangieman.

Me, a ****e stirrer,:o it'd never happen.:angel:

I should probabley point out that this particualar series of tests came about because MR "I love Autos" told me i was flat out wrong to think that a manual would have stayed in gear during a technical descent whereas the auto toymota droped out after the driver staked the cooler and radiator. and that you could push start an auto... FFS this guy is supposed to be teaching me stuff...:mad:

[Slunnie]

:lol2:

But I do have a real 4WD, with synchromeshless 1st and 2nd, live axles front and rear, leaf springs from when things were made tough, heck, it even has sliding windows..... none of this fancy schmancy power sliding window stuff. But, well..... the auto disco just was never built like the ol' Landy. :D

[Blknight.aus]

springs, springs?!? luxury I tells ya, back in my day we had to get up at least half an hour before we needed to drive out, trudge a few miles though snow and sleet, barefoot across *****le grass to gather the firewood to light the fire under the boiler to get the steam up to drive... And we had wooden wheels, I suppose now you'll complain about having cross plies and sliding windows, We used to dream of having windows on the old stanely we didnt even have a roof and if the wind blew the wrong way we got to school all sooty and then we'd get six of the best for getting there dirty... and did you hear me complain....


someone in my other post re: removing mags, mentioned anger management. this is my anger management, I defy anyone to site there and write in a thread like this without smiling or grinning

[dullbird]

you can drive an auto while you are a sleep!!! and can quite easily hit a lampost without interupting your z's............

none of this shake shake rattle rattle because the car is pleading with you to change down.:wasntme:
:D :D :D :D :D
dullbird

[JDNSW]

springs, springs?!? luxury I tells ya, back in my day we had to get up at least half an hour before we needed to drive out, trudge a few miles though snow and sleet, barefoot across *****le grass to gather the firewood to light the fire under the boiler to get the steam up to drive... And we had wooden wheels, I suppose now you'll complain about having cross plies and sliding windows, We used to dream of having windows on the old stanely we didnt even have a roof and if the wind blew the wrong way we got to school all sooty and then we'd get six of the best for getting there dirty... and did you hear me complain....


someone in my other post re: removing mags, mentioned anger management. this is my anger management, I defy anyone to site there and write in a thread like this without smiling or grinning

You've left out the hassle of catching and harnessing the team, plus having to groom and feed them when you got home.........

John

[harro]

Oh hell, I just like being in control & changing gears myself.
Manual? Auto?
Take me where I want to go, I couldn't give a SH$T.:p

[camel_landy]

Now I will get it in the neck with this. The ill-educated, barely literate, poorly trained, unwilling, disinterested, swaddie drivers conscripted into war service from the dole queue, will stuff anything mechanical. The autos. will generally live better and longer in this type of service. Ask any fleet manager. I will now head for the bomb shelter before the missiles arrive from the overpaid military pensioners.

Funny you should mention that.... Most squaddie drivers I've come across are not at all mechanically sympathetic. To which end, an auto would be better.

I can see that in that 'panic' scenario you mentioned, my money is on the squaddie dropping the clutch & either snapping an axle or the output shaft of the box. ;)

M

[camel_landy]

Mind you... The Auto in the D3 IS the only way to go. :thumbsup:

M

[tombraider]

What
a
Load
of
BOLLOCKS

:rocket:

[harro]

What
a
Load
of
BOLLOCKS

:rocket:


Hear Hear!!!

[VladTepes]

What


a
Load
of
BULLOCKS


:rocket:


What has cattle got to do with this ?



As to the manual vs auto debate - I know of a 130 fitted with an auto. Gee I;d love to give that thing a run in the bush ans see how it goes. Certianly it's good on the beach from what I;m told, and I reckon it would be.

[Bigbjorn]

What has cattle got to do with this ?



As to the manual vs auto debate - I know of a 130 fitted with an auto. Gee I;d love to give that thing a run in the bush ans see how it goes. Certianly it's good on the beach from what I;m told, and I reckon it would be.

I think the earthmoving & mining industries have well and truly proven the performance and reliability of torque convertor & auto, semi-auto, & powershift transmissions. No manual trans. whatsoever in any new plant that I know of, and have not been seen for many, many, years. Terex have a 240 ton rear dump with mechanical ( as opposed to electric) drive and auto. trans.

[Cap]

I got an auto cos my wife told me too.... :D :D

[VladTepes]

I got an auto cos my wife told me too.... :D :D

No better (or worse) reason !

[JDNSW]

I think the earthmoving & mining industries have well and truly proven the performance and reliability of torque convertor & auto, semi-auto, & powershift transmissions. No manual trans. whatsoever in any new plant that I know of, and have not been seen for many, many, years. Terex have a 240 ton rear dump with mechanical ( as opposed to electric) drive and auto. trans.

No question whatsoever about this - but very few if any are fully automatic, although torque converters and powershifts are everywhere. And fleet owners everywhere have long since decided that automatics are cheaper to run in cars - but I'm not sure that cheaper = better.

Two interesting points - I was in the USA recently, and did a bit of city bus travel - while most of these are automatic or powershift, I did see a couple of manuals, rather surprisingly in that country. Also of interest is the new (last month) Ford Freestyle my sister-in-law has just got in Houston. It has a continuously variable belt drive transmission, with a multiplate friction clutch. Both are controlled by the ECM and the driver has no control over gearing except for forward and reverse and indirectly by rate of change of throttle opening and the throttle opening itself.

John

[VladTepes]

...Ford Freestyle....has a continuously variable belt drive transmission, with a multiplate friction clutch. Both are controlled by the ECM and the driver has no control over gearing except for forward and reverse and indirectly by rate of change of throttle opening and the throttle opening itself.

John

CVT = "driving for dummies"

(no offence to your sis-inlaw)

[JDNSW]

CVT = "driving for dummies"

(no offence to your sis-inlaw)

She can drive a manual but prefers not to. My brother and their daughter both drive Manual VWs.

John

[moose]

My 2 cents...

Auto's are for people who have to drive.

Manual's are for people who like to drive.

:burnrubber:
Manual for me thanks

[maggsie]

I was originally intending to buy a manual disco as I prefer manuals, however, I am certainly not disappointed with the auto!
Maggsie

[dungarover]

Like I've always said, I drive an auto mainly because I'm a lazy bastard and why change gears if you have an option for it to be done for you :angel:

Nothing worse than being stuck in traffic with a manual. I've had a couple of manual rangies in the past and didn't think about getting an auto but drove one and thought this is bloody alright, so I bought one a few weekas later and traded in my manual Rangie. Never looked back. I push my Rangie to the limits off-road most times and haven't had any massive auto issues nor minor ones at that.

I'm not interested in scientific crap or theory bull****, if it works I'm happy.

Trav

[Relay]

Heh. I learnt to drive in an auto. I'd rather be driving a manual. Perhaps my Learners 50 hours had an adverse affect on my mental health.

Side note: Ron, where are you...is that supposed to be affect or effect?! GAH!

[Pedro_The_Swift]

My 2 cents...

Auto's are for people who have to drive.

Manual's are for people who like to drive.

:burnrubber:
Manual for me thanks


If I have to drive---
"D" will do nicely,,

or

"D" "S"
if you prefer,,:angel:

[D110V8D]

I learnt to drive in a manual and have always prefered manuals.

My first auto was/is the Pig. When I'm stuck up a track like Ellis and it's ****ing down and there's rocks and ruts and all the rest I'll take the auto anyday of the week. So much smoother to drive through that kind of stuff.

If I'm just touring and farting around the country I'd prefer a manual.

[roly]

Here's my 2 bobs worth--It is a personal choice [keeping the missus in mind] I guess cost,reliability,maintainance are on par.On road the auto is great especialy with the modern diesels,however off road I've had trouble getting used to the auto--limited engine breaking [hence HDC] and not knowing if the wheels are spinning or the tranny is slipping--Yes manual off road for me.----Roly

[Bigbjorn]

No question whatsoever about this - but very few if any are fully automatic, although torque converters and powershifts are everywhere. And fleet owners everywhere have long since decided that automatics are cheaper to run in cars - but I'm not sure that cheaper = better.

Two interesting points - I was in the USA recently, and did a bit of city bus travel - while most of these are automatic or powershift, I did see a couple of manuals, rather surprisingly in that country. Also of interest is the new (last month) Ford Freestyle my sister-in-law has just got in Houston. It has a continuously variable belt drive transmission, with a multiplate friction clutch. Both are controlled by the ECM and the driver has no control over gearing except for forward and reverse and indirectly by rate of change of throttle opening and the throttle opening itself.
John

John, the big mining trucks, except the electric drives, are mostly Allison autos. and have been for more than thirty years.A few other brands are used but Allison generally has the business. Powershift are usually used in earthmovers in cyclic service ( forward/reverse cycles) like loaders, dozers, graders, rollers. Motor scrapers may have either but if being used properly, in hauls in excess of say 200 meters, should be better with an auto. Plant that sits and works, or does not travel much in use are nowadays mostly hydrostatic drive (skid steer loaders & excavators for example). I hope the continuously variable belt drives have been improved since the days they were used in skid steer loaders in the sixties and seventies.

[Blknight.aus]

:lol2:

But I do have a real 4WD, with synchromeshless 1st and 2nd, live axles front and rear, leaf springs from when things were made tough, heck, it even has sliding windows..... none of this fancy schmancy power sliding window stuff. But, well..... the auto disco just was never built like the ol' Landy. :D

Yeah but I notice your whinging about it in another thread.....:p

and for tombraider... what part of the convo are you talking about?

[JDNSW]

John, the big mining trucks, except the electric drives, are mostly Allison autos. and have been for more than thirty years.A few other brands are used but Allison generally has the business. Powershift are usually used in earthmovers in cyclic service ( forward/reverse cycles) like loaders, dozers, graders, rollers. Motor scrapers may have either but if being used properly, in hauls in excess of say 200 meters, should be better with an auto. (skid steer loaders & excavators for example). I hope the continuously variable belt drives have been improved since the days they were used in skid steer loaders in the sixties and seventies.

I must admit I am not familiar with mining trucks - more familiar with the the second lot you quote.
Interestingly in view of the "Plant that sits and works, or does not travel much in use are nowadays mostly hydrostatic drive", most modern harvesters seem to be hydrostatic drive - and these not only travel continuously while working but are driven on road often for long distances. This came up with a recent change to NSW rules requiring them to have brake lights - a significant problem since they do not use brakes as such, using the hydrostatic drive for braking.
John

[VladTepes]

Nothing worse than being stuck in traffic with a manual.
Trav

You're right there mate.

Trust me it's much better to be stuck in traffic in an auto Rangie than in a manual Defender !!!

It's incredibly better to not be stuck in traffic at all, but instead to be cruising some bush track or Fraser Island beach !

[p38arover]

As to the manual vs auto debate - I know of a 130 fitted with an auto.

Edd's (George130) ?

Ron

[VladTepes]

Nup. But there is his too. The one I;m thinking of is in Brissie and is a TD5

[Bigbjorn]

I must admit I am not familiar with mining trucks - more familiar with the the second lot you quote.
Interestingly in view of the "Plant that sits and works, or does not travel much in use are nowadays mostly hydrostatic drive", most modern harvesters seem to be hydrostatic drive - and these not only travel continuously while working but are driven on road often for long distances. This came up with a recent change to NSW rules requiring them to have brake lights - a significant problem since they do not use brakes as such, using the hydrostatic drive for braking.
John

Never had anything at all to do with harvesters but surprised to hear they travel them distances with hydrostatic drive. They must have super good oil cooling systems. The problems with continuous travel & hydrostatic drive were (1) keeping the stuff cool. This is a high friction drive system and heat is also generated by the forcing of the high pressure oil through the small orifices in the motors. (2) It is a relatively inefficient transmission and for travel purposes uses excessive fuel. (3) Being used for travel wears them out rapidly. The pumps and motors are expensive to rebuild. It is a very convenient, easy to use, has fine controllability, and is a highly maneuverable system. Hydrostatic transmission is what made skid steer loaders a howling success from the mid-70's on. IHC had a few farm tractors (1970's-80's) with hydraulic drive but not a success. A major application problem with torque convertor/powershift transmissions used on dozers was in land clearing, & stick raking, and ploughing where the machine operates continuously under load and overheats the transmission oil. In cyclic operation, the reverse part of the cycle is unladen and the oil temp. does not build up. Contractors in this type of work usually had direct drive (clutch) transmissions. Fiat-Allis had a magic combination of an automatic oil-filled multi-disc clutch and a powershift transmission which could be used without problems in continuous work. Pity Fiat don't make cars as good as their construction equipment.

[Graeme]

I must admit I am not familiar with mining trucks - more familiar with the the second lot you quote.
Interestingly in view of the "Plant that sits and works, or does not travel much in use are nowadays mostly hydrostatic drive", most modern harvesters seem to be hydrostatic drive - and these not only travel continuously while working but are driven on road often for long distances. This came up with a recent change to NSW rules requiring them to have brake lights - a significant problem since they do not use brakes as such, using the hydrostatic drive for braking.
John

In the end, brake lights were not required due to the existing requirement for escort vehicles, warning lights and their slow speed (max about 40kph).

The headers only move slowly whilst working but not due to pulling a heavy load, rather, limited by their ability to take in and seperate the grain. They also have several gear ratios (mine has 3 and a 2 speed motor as well), so the hydrostatic drive is only working over a small speed range.

[Blknight.aus]

You're right there mate.

Trust me it's much better to be stuck in traffic in an auto Rangie than in a manual Defender !!!



ahh but manual Deefers dont get stuck in traffic, we just do the red neck hick thing, pick first low and drive over the mobile crumple zone in front as a bonus you get to see further up there so you can pick the best route

[natanchris]

It would have been alright anyway Blknight, the tanks have got autos too...

[Blknight.aus]

It would have been alright anyway Blknight, the tanks have got autos too...


ROFLMAO:clap2: :clap2: :thumbsup: GOLD

Ok when I stop laughing at that one I'm buying you a beer, where are ya?

[JDNSW]

Never had anything at all to do with harvesters but surprised to hear they travel them distances with hydrostatic drive. They must have super good oil cooling systems. The problems with continuous travel & hydrostatic drive were (1) keeping the stuff cool. This is a high friction drive system and heat is also generated by the forcing of the high pressure oil through the small orifices in the motors. (2) It is a relatively inefficient transmission and for travel purposes uses excessive fuel. (3) Being used for travel wears them out rapidly. The pumps and motors are expensive to rebuild. It is a very convenient, easy to use, has fine controllability, and is a highly maneuverable system. Hydrostatic transmission is what made skid steer loaders a howling success from the mid-70's on. IHC had a few farm tractors (1970's-80's) with hydraulic drive but not a success. A major application problem with torque convertor/powershift transmissions used on dozers was in land clearing, & stick raking, and ploughing where the machine operates continuously under load and overheats the transmission oil. In cyclic operation, the reverse part of the cycle is unladen and the oil temp. does not build up. Contractors in this type of work usually had direct drive (clutch) transmissions. Fiat-Allis had a magic combination of an automatic oil-filled multi-disc clutch and a powershift transmission which could be used without problems in continuous work. Pity Fiat don't make cars as good as their construction equipment.

I think the reason they are satisfactory for highway use is that the hydrostatic system operates everything else as well and the driving wheels are only a small part of the load normally so that when on the highway the system is operating well below capacity, so cooling is adequate. The hydrostatic system is to replace the awful conglomeration of belts on older headers.

On your second point, some years ago I was looking at a tractor, partly for maintaining my roads, so I needed a blade, but it would also be used for ploughing etc. I ended up with a Chamberlain 306, with a manual transmission, but one I looked at but did not get for the reason you mention, was the same tractor with a torque converter.

John

[Bigbjorn]

I think the reason they are satisfactory for highway use is that the hydrostatic system operates everything else as well and the driving wheels are only a small part of the load normally so that when on the highway the system is operating well below capacity, so cooling is adequate. The hydrostatic system is to replace the awful conglomeration of belts on older headers.

On your second point, some years ago I was looking at a tractor, partly for maintaining my roads, so I needed a blade, but it would also be used for ploughing etc. I ended up with a Chamberlain 306, with a manual transmission, but one I looked at but did not get for the reason you mention, was the same tractor with a torque converter.

John

You are probably right about the traction part of the system being a minor part of the hydraulic load in that type of machine. Do they travel them at a higher speed than in the paddock working? Do they leave the fronts on? I have often seen someone towing a header front on a long skinny trailer type rig down country roads but always assumed the header itself would be on a trailer also. Leaving the front bit on would severely restrict your choice of roads.

[Graeme]

You are probably right about the traction part of the system being a minor part of the hydraulic load in that type of machine. Do they travel them at a higher speed than in the paddock working? Do they leave the fronts on? I have often seen someone towing a header front on a long skinny trailer type rig down country roads but always assumed the header itself would be on a trailer also. Leaving the front bit on would severely restrict your choice of roads.

They have an hydraulic system for the drive and another system to adjust the comb height and reel speed and position etc. Mine uses a belt to drive the cutter bar. The threshing mechanism is not usually hydraulically driven, rather by belts and chains, and its the threshing, seperating and straw chopping that uses the majority of the power. Paddock speed is typically 6-8kph.

It is illegal to drive a header on the road with the comb attached - all machinery must be reduced to its narrowest possible width.