Who would get the blame?

[ATH]

Hi all.
I posted this on the Exploroz forum this morning and wondered what you lot think.
One of the erratic morning bike riders I compete with for road space on the way to work nearly met his maker at 0720 this morning.
Driving sedately in a northerly direction and approaching a roundabout at which I turn left, I observed a cyclist heading towards me on the pavement, on my left hand side.

Giving my normal clear indication of my intentions (rarely do cyclists ever bother to let other road users know what they're up to) I entered the roundabout and the fat oaf swerved across the junction right in front of me.
The ABS on my Defender worked well and I just avoided flattening him which was just as well because at about 18 stone (how much is that in kg?)he would have made a more than sizable dent in the bonnet of the vehicle despite the roo bar!

I hurled the usual compliment out the window as his head jerked round in my direction ( he obviously hadn't seen me and was no doubt absorbed in the sound coming from his walkman) ...."You fat ******" and he blithely cycled on and disappeared in the direction of the Police Academy.
The oaf maybe an instructor within that establishment.

Now this is the point, if he's a cop and I believe he is, how hard would it be for me to prove I'd clearly indicated my intentions if he'd been flattened?

Would the the fact that I drive a 4 wheel drive automatically mean I was guilty? That would certainly be the only fact published or commented upon.

Would the bull bar be blamed for having caused his death or injuries despite him not being aware/interested/too copper arrogant to care about what was happening on the road around him?

Why was he riding on the pavement? Is he above the law?

Why is a Nissan sporting the flag of Scotland which parks outside the academy allowed to have a "rocket launcher" attached to his bull bar?
Is it OK for him as he works there, or possibly was training there, or are they so unobservant that they haven't seen it?

I haven't got anything against cops, they do a job I couldn't and wouldn't do, although I admit to having no respect for either the basic driving of many police drivers or their policing of the road rules.
"Don't do as I do, do as I tell you". https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/10/225.jpg

Alan H

[gruntfuttock]

Your guilty,
1. Because you drive a 4WD:p
2. Because you have a bullbar:p
3. If he is a member of the police force you are in the wrong anyway. (Don't ask me why, I don't want to go there again):mad:

[Quiggers]

As Mike Moore would've said: "Hmmmmmmmmm".

I saw a similar thing happen recently. A cyclist (teen) rode down a footpath and straight into the side of a 4wd (Discovery like mine of all things). The Disco was about back door section past the pedestrian crossing, the cyclist hit it about rear side window. The driver stopped on hearing the impact, the teen (a female) was shaken, but unhurt; its mummy was nearby and had a serious argument with the driver, until I arrived and said if there was any issue I'd happily tell the cops what I saw...
The Disco had some panel damage which would've been maybe a grand or so to fix, but neither the teen or the mummy seemed to think the teen was at fault. (Wish I had the camera).

I saw it all happen right in front of me.

There's a cyclist that does the Bruxner Highway to Lismore, daily, which is not long for this earth, for the same reasons you described, gruntf.

(A forty something male cyclist was run over here and killed a few years ago, the poor truckie copped it big time - but was not his call - and about 10 metres off that section of 'highway' is a cycleway, this genius left behind a young family).

Cyclists should learn they're 'vulnerable'.

GQ

[CraigE]

Easy solution, If you hit him, just make sure he does not get up. Dead men no speak.
He was in the wrong in multiple ways, and even being a copper would be hard for him to prove you negligent.
A good story for one of them current affairs shows.
Pose the question to the Police minister.
:twisted:

[ATH]

I reported a cop motorbike rider some years ago because his driving was appalling.
The copper investigating my complaint said that it was good that they would have my complaint on record because if someone did knock him off his bike they'd have a hard time convincing the cops he was to blame because of the training they are supposed to go through.
My answer to him was that most of the cops I saw in cars or on bikes seem to have forgotten their training and operated on a "Don't do as I do, do as I tell you" basis!!!
Maybe I should make a complaint about this tosser but working next door to the training academy that may not be a good move if I want to keep driving to work!
It really pees me off when I see blatant disregard such as he showed by riding on a path which isn't a shared pathway and with his lack of looking where he was going, which stems no doubt from his in built copper arrogance.
Cyclists are a bee in my bonnet (I used to be a very keen cyclist) as most of them are probably drivers of cars or trucks etc. yet they do just the things that annoy/enrage/frighten the poo out of other motorists and they probably rant at cyclists themselves!
I'll have to drink a lot of beer tonight to calm myself down.
Any excuse.
Alan H.

[discowhite]

i think there is something in the foot path rules of use. if its sign posted as a cycle way than im not sure, but if its just a footpath then he could be in the wrong! if its a footpath he should be riding on the road and obeying the road rules! if its a footpath i ''think'' he should have dismounted his ride to cross the intersection, then he would be classed as a pedestrian?? for the answer to that one give scrubby a call he'll happily tell you your wrong either way:D

cheers phil

[Quiggers]

Just don't drive after that beer AlanH.

You're on the public record for putting the finger on a possible copper. May well be an ex copper if he keeps that up. (As in Monty Pythons ex parrot).

If it makes you feel any better, I backed into a cop car a week ago, d'oh!

Well, he was illegally parked and i didn't see him, should not have been there in the first place.

I nearly ran over one a few years ago, but that's another story.

GQ

[Frenchie]

It should be illegal to ride a bike while listening to a walkman/ipod, there's no way you can hear danger signs from other traffic.

[Quarks]

i think there is something in the foot path rules of use. if its sign posted as a cycle way than im not sure, but if its just a footpath then he could be in the wrong! if its a footpath he should be riding on the road and obeying the road rules! if its a footpath i ''think'' he should have dismounted his ride to cross the intersection, then he would be classed as a pedestrian?? for the answer to that one give scrubby a call he'll happily tell you your wrong either way:D

cheers phil


I'm not too sure about WA, but to use a pedestrian crossing in NSW, then you have to dismount and walk across. If on the bike, then "At path intersections you must signal your intention to turn, and give way to motor vehicles entering or exiting an intersecting road." (link below)

Persons over 12 can only ride on the footpath if accompanying someone under 12, so he'd be in the wrong if it wasn't a shared path (cycleway).
In any case, checking http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/cycling/1976.asp shows that:
"Under the Road Traffic Code, it is an offence to speed. The Code also requires that you do not ride carelessly or recklessly."

And not paying attention to the traffic at the crossing has to be pretty reckless.

[isuzurover]

It should be illegal to ride a bike while listening to a walkman/ipod, there's no way you can hear danger signs from other traffic.

If that is the case it should be illegal to drive a car while listening to the radio, or drive/ride if you are deaf, or use electric cars which are silent and don't make any noise. Didn't think that one through did you...

Alan - was there a pedestrian crossing where the cyclist crossed? Or traffic lights?

Cyclists are permitted to ride on any footpaths as long as there is not a specific "no bicycles" or "pedestrians only" however they must give way to pedestrians on the paths (according to a lawyer mate this is written into federal regs which override state/local regs).

AFAIK...

If they were on a footpath, then the usual rights of pedestrians apply (however I think they are required to dismount to cross roads in this case). If on a road (not a bikeway), they are treated as a vehicle, and you can be fined for illegal passing manouvers to get around them.

Btw - I spent 3 years in Germany riding a bike to work everyday, and still ride as often as I can in OZ. It is good exercise, good for the environment, and it saves the Landie for the fun stuff on weekends. More people should do it.

Although there are lots of idiot bike riders, IME there are more idiot car drivers, including the F**** who (while parked) opened his front door right in front of my wife when she was riding on the road (in Germany). Fortunately the police were nearby and he copped a hefty fine.

[ATH]

No pedestrian crossing but just a small roundabout. Whenever there's pedestrians/cyclists on them I'm cautious but this oaf was just not looking at anything except head down and go.
If he'd been actually on the roundabout or about to enter it before me, I would have given way to him, but I was turning the corner when he rides in front of me and as far as I'm concerned that would have been his own silly fault.
Proving he was at fault would have been difficult though if he really is a cop.
Anyone as vunerable as a cyclists should have at least some regard for his own safety.
Alan H.

[isuzurover]

AFAIK there is a law that drivers must give way to pedestrians and cyclists regardless of if there is a pedestrian crossing or not. But pedestrians/cyclists are only supposed to cross a road when/where safe to do when there is no defined crossing. So if he had hit you, then it should have been a clear case, but if he had shot out in front of you and you had hit him - it could be difficult for you to prove he was 100% at fault.

The above carries the usual disclaimer that I am not a lawyer and have absolutely no idea about anything at all... :D

[gruntfuttock]

I said what i said because of two things:-

1.

A bloke goes through a giveway sign and hits a girl on his right. The girl was hauled into the police station and raked over the coals and the final outcome was that she admitted she was at fault. I cannot see how as he went through a giveway sign, NOT a stop sign. He hot her and she was on his right, but he was a copper, she was not:mad: :mad:

2.

A couple of youths trash a train. They spend the whole day there and smask everything that was possible to break. The farmer saw them inside and chased them. After running some 5 miles he caught them, and rang the police. They came with his mother:eek: . As it turned out, the kids were on holidays from Melbourne. She was the wife of a copper and she left them all day alone by the river to fish (12YO and 13 YO). She was having a naughty with the local copper who was married. The group who owned the train were told "You have NO RIGHTS WHAT SO EVER to report this. We will pay damages of $20 and that is it. The files were always lost when they did file it and nothiing ever came of it.


I am sorry if anybody who is a member of the Police force has taken offence to this. It is NOT my intention to point the finger. Mearly stating facts as the happened. There are some very good members of the police force.

I was a friend of the young police man and I was involved with the train people. So I can talk from first hand.

[Vandermorph]

The idiot on the bike!! You say you gave clear indications and he payed no heed!!

[5teve]

i guess most things have been covered here... just wanted to add my 2 penneth worth...

im a cyclist... and i do around 2-3000 miles a year... mainly on road although here in perth i can get away with the lovely cycle path that zig zags over the mitchel freeway,

one thing that scares me more than anything as a driver is people wearing / using ipods etc while cycling... in a car its different as you are isolated from the traffic noise to a certain extent... and you have mirrors to check around you... on a bike you have your wits... and thats just about it.. i never use anything like that as i can hear cars... and make judgements on how fast how close etc etc they are!

now i have seen from a drivers point of view and seem some completely stupid riders... either stupid... or in proffessional riders cases sheer arrogance.. and they do pull some stupid tricks... im always cautious around riders and in a perfect world we shouldnt need to be...

i have also seen it from a cyclists point of view (the same as on a motorbike) to 'some' drivers you become invisible.. if they dont see a predetermined shape (car) coming toward them they dont see you... i have had it in the UK where i have been riding back in early evening with 20w of halogen lights firing away.. and a person has looked at me and still pulled out even tho i was only 10m odd away!

in this instance.. stupid rider... another day it could be a stupid driver... fortunately for this guy... alan was not stupid... and was alert.... the rider may not be so lucky next time...

anyway... enough waffle... i think its safe to say that there are stupid cyclists and stupid drivers and we will of all had experience of both :)

Thanks

Steve

[George130]

You would be in the right. If he was on the footpath and failed to giv way before entering a road then thats it game over in court.

Friend almost ran a cop over a few years ago as he had parked on a round about the same size as his car and left the lights off and was conducting RBT's. This was in an old suburb of canberra with no street lighting. Cop just steped out of the shadows infront of my friend who mounted the kerb to miss him. at this point the cop approched him and turned his torch on to light up his uniform and said what does this say? Friend read it backwards "ECILOP" as thats the way the cop motiend the light. Cop was not impressed.

[Turtle61]

Guys,

I ride a bike - here in Geneva and back in Oz.

The rules for bikes are pretty much the same as for cars: they have to ride on the road if there is no cycleway. They have to give way and go by the same rules as any other car with the exception that they can ride 2-abreast and may overtake on the left (and some other ones)... Riders are allowed to do hook-turns (unless there is a sign NO BICYCLE HOOKTURN) and MUST dismount if crossing a road at a pedestrian corssing.

As for riding on footpaths: adult riders permitted ONLY if they are supervising a child (ubder 12yo riding a bike).

"253 Bicycle riders not to cause a traffic hazard: The rider of a bicycle must not cause a traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver or pedestrian.
Offence provision."

Have a look at the Australian Road Rules for Bicycles (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregulations/downloads/p15.pdf). At least if you don't ride, you know what what to expect and if you know the rules you have a good start should an argument arise.

I cannot stress this point enough: in general Bicycle riders have the same rights and obligations as any other road users.

So to answer some questions:
1. Original post: the fat dude would and was in the wrong
2. The stupid woman with a kid slamming into a Disco: SHE was in the wrong as it is HER duty to supervise her child and teach her road rules (my guess is she was trying to blame the driver for her own stupidity).


And not to mention listening to music on a bike - no word can describe the stupidity and carelessness of such a rider...

[Frenchie]

If that is the case it should be illegal to drive a car while listening to the radio, or drive/ride if you are deaf, or use electric cars which are silent and don't make any noise. Didn't think that one through did you...

.

Erm, a bit different I think. Even with the radio on in the car I can hear emergency vehicles etc, with the windows up in a car then you don't use your hearing as much to sense the conditions around you, but on a bike it is essential. If you were deaf riding a bike you would be much much more careful but I don't think people who use ipods etc. give this much thought. Electric cars? I think you're scratching for an argument there.

Didn't think that one through did you?

[mns488]

[quote=Turtle61]Guys,

I ride a bike - here in Geneva and back in Oz.

The rules for bikes are pretty much the same as for cars: they have to ride on the road if there is no cycleway.

Here in Melbourne the rules are not necessarily the same for cyclists and cars.

Example: There is a riding group called the hell ride and they ride in a pack of 50+bikes flat out around the bay on beach rd. On this occasion they failed to stop at a pedestrian crossing and 1 cyclist killed a pedestrian crossing the road. He was given a fine for dangerous riding (or something). A car driver failing to stop at a pedestrian crossing and killing someone would have been in jail!

I live near this beach rd and i have lost count at how many riders i have almost collected where they are in the wrong.

The rules for cyclists need to be re-visited and enforced.

[George130]

I said what i said because of two things:-

1.

A bloke goes through a giveway sign and hits a girl on his right. The girl was hauled into the police station and raked over the coals and the final outcome was that she admitted she was at fault. I cannot see how as he went through a giveway sign, NOT a stop sign. He hot her and she was on his right, but he was a copper, she was not:mad: :mad:

2.

A couple of youths trash a train. They spend the whole day there and smask everything that was possible to break. The farmer saw them inside and chased them. After running some 5 miles he caught them, and rang the police. They came with his mother:eek: . As it turned out, the kids were on holidays from Melbourne. She was the wife of a copper and she left them all day alone by the river to fish (12YO and 13 YO). She was having a naughty with the local copper who was married. The group who owned the train were told "You have NO RIGHTS WHAT SO EVER to report this. We will pay damages of $20 and that is it. The files were always lost when they did file it and nothiing ever came of it.


I am sorry if anybody who is a member of the Police force has taken offence to this. It is NOT my intention to point the finger. Mearly stating facts as the happened. There are some very good members of the police force.

I was a friend of the young police man and I was involved with the train people. So I can talk from first hand.

Learn't the hard way many years ago there are good and bad cops. I was just luck in my experience as the senior officer who came along was a friend. Was always scared by what he told us that night "Get in the car and go strait home. Do not stop for anyone not even the police. Ring me if you can't make it home!"