Could this be the beginning of the "re-opening" of 4WD tracks

[FenianEel]

Finally,

It takes a disaster to realise that recreational 4WDers and forest/park users actually help the bush.

Since they closed tracks and access up here (particularly around west of Sunshine Coast/Gympie) they're all overgrown with lantana and ferals.

Fingers crossed some pressure will put on all govts.
Beattie was adamant and arrogant about closing access here when he did it. Howard didn't want to know about this previously.

From NEWS.com.au

PRIME Minister John Howard has criticised national park authorities for trying to protect the parks by closing fire tracks and denying access to firefighters.
Mr Howard said on this week's visit to the fire devastated areas in Victoria he was amazed by the number of firefighters complaining.
"I was very stuck when I was in Victoria about the number of firefighters who complained to me that the fire trails had been closed and that when the fires came very abruptly in some of the high country they couldn't get into the areas in order to fight the fires," the prime minister told ABC radio today.
Bushfires are still burning in Victoria, NSW and Tasmania, where several homes and thousands of hectares of bushland have been destroyed.
"It seems contradictory to me that you have a national park that is designed to preserve the trees and everything to do with the environment, and yet in order to fight a fire which will destroy the very thing you're trying to preserve, you close down the fire tracks," he said.
Meanwhile, Mr Howard said there is not enough evidence to suggest climate change has caused extra bushfires in Australia.
"I don't think anyone could ever prove that either way - they could just be a reflection of periodic hot weather and we've had many examples of that over the last century.
"I think we have to acknowledge that climate change clearly could be an element in it, but I think we also have to remember this is not the first time we've had bushfires," Mr Howard said.

[Blknight.aus]

you know for a change The little git might have actually gotten something right.

Lets hope he backs it up as well as he backs up his IR laws with which no-one is going to loose out.

[Turtle61]

Hm... Little Johnny saying something sensible - mark this in your calendars boys and girls. A public holiday should be declared :D :eek: :twisted: :cool:

[rangieman]

you know for a change The little git might have actually gotten something right.

Lets hope he backs it up as well as he backs up his IR laws with which no-one is going to loose out.

yeah and i hope i can once again own a semi auto shotgun again (yeah rght pigs fly dont they):twisted:

[Ace]

Lets hope they see the light and every locked gate gets bulldozed. :D Wishfull thinking i know, but opening up the tracks would be a good thing in several ways.

1) Tracks are kept clear by 4wders and other users of the tracks.
2) Having more tracks to select from reduces the impact on tracks which people know are open by spreading people over more tracks as opposed to half a dozen.
3) Firefighters can access any track they want when they want.

Matt

[p38arover]

i hope i can once again own a semi auto shotgun again

Why?

Ron

[Redback]

People do realise that emergency services have unrestricted access to all areas when doing their job, they can access private property and National Parks reguardless of gates and what Parks OFFICERS say.

Baz.

[TuffRR]

People do realise that emergency services have unrestricted access to all areas when doing their job, they can access private property and National Parks reguardless of gates and what Parks OFFICERS say.

Baz.

True. Although once the track has been dozed, wombat holes dug and trees put across the track, access becomes somewhat more difficult!

[Redback]

True. Although once the track has been dozed, wombat holes dug and trees put across the track, access becomes somewhat more difficult!

Vic Parks or the Tassie equivalent should drawn and quartered if they do that, Parks in NSW are normally closed:twisted: but have always been accessable to RFS and NPWS firefighters.

Baz.

[DeeJay]

Why?

Ron

Its called civil rights, doesn't really matter why.
Why would you own something is a personal choice.
I loved both my pump action gun and beretta 22 cal semi auto coz I inherited them from my dad and they were masterpieces. It was a privilige to be given them.
Scrap now, and no amount of money will let me forget or forgive that tyrant.

[Lucy]

Parks in NSW are normally closed:twisted: but have always been accessable to RFS and NPWS firefighters.

Which means that they have the key to the gate. Here in the NSW South Coast, during the last big fires, many of the locked tracks were in such poor condition, with downed trees, washaways etc, that the RFS couldn't get through! They spent more time fixing tracks and removing trees than fighting fires. That meant that the fires spread further than they needed to. A lot of tracks have also been closed by either a bull dozer building a big earth mound, or by a truck load of boulders being dropped across the track entrance - how do RFS get through these?

[Ace]

Which means that they have the key to the gate. Here in the NSW South Coast, during the last big fires, many of the locked tracks were in such poor condition, with downed trees, washaways etc, that the RFS couldn't get through! They spent more time fixing tracks and removing trees than fighting fires. That meant that the fires spread further than they needed to. A lot of tracks have also been closed by either a bull dozer building a big earth mound, or by a truck load of boulders being dropped across the track entrance - how do RFS get through these?

and thats the problem, had the Mt Airlie track been locked off around the time of the long weekend and then there need to be bushfire access then they wouldnt gotten through in a hurry, there were trees down from the strong winds the weekend before. Locking tracks off wont preserve them, it will only ensure they are grown over. Tracks need to be used regularly to maintain access. Even if NPWS worked with 4wd clubs they could keep them open. Matt

[Blknight.aus]

True. Although once the track has been dozed, wombat holes dug and trees put across the track, access becomes somewhat more difficult!
Thats why they should be driving landrovers, none of that seems to effect me, I only stop for the locked gates, anything I can drive over is just a natural obstacle to be negotiated.

Agree with the theme of yes they have unlimited access in emergancies but how the hell do you get something down a track that hasnt been used in years.

if they really really want to, have a small yearly registration fee for an access pass and make it a requirement that anything a stock 4x4 would have to think about before crossing be reported so that it can be sorted..

use the proceeds to fund a process where clubs or training establishments can come in and do track clearing days as part of their thing... Seems to me that it would make a nearly ideal controled training environment for roadbuilding techniques, path clearing, and BBQ and camping.

[Ace]

if they really really want to, have a small yearly registration fee for an access pass and make it a requirement that anything a stock 4x4 would have to think about before crossing be reported so that it can be sorted..

use the proceeds to fund a process where clubs or training establishments can come in and do track clearing days as part of their thing... Seems to me that it would make a nearly ideal controled training environment for roadbuilding techniques, path clearing, and BBQ and camping.

This is the answer, and i cant understand how NPWS hasnt seen this and tapped in on some free labour. Why not have an access to clubs type set up like they do with the spanish steps track on the newnes plateu. The track is locked off but the Blue Mountains 4wd Club manages the key, takes bookings and maitains the track. You book via the 4wd councils website, the BM 4wd Club contacts you, you give the details and then pick the key up from a business in lithgow. NPWS could do something similar and allow access to affiliated clubs. The tracks would be kept clear and people are allowed to use them. Matt

[Michael2]

This is the answer, and i cant understand how NPWS hasnt seen this and tapped in on some free labour. Why not have an access to clubs type set up like they do with the spanish steps track on the newnes plateu. The track is locked off but the Blue Mountains 4wd Club manages the key, takes bookings and maitains the track. You book via the 4wd councils website, the BM 4wd Club contacts you, you give the details and then pick the key up from a business in lithgow. NPWS could do something similar and allow access to affiliated clubs. The tracks would be kept clear and people are allowed to use them. Matt

The Parks & Forests belong to the people, not to clubs. If I don't want to become involved with club politics, that shouldn't stop me from taking my family camping to remote areas.

On bad tracks I always end up doing some track maintenance - and I don't even mind scouting out a bad track, then going back and spending a day getting through, making it servicable again. I think if there was a spirit of cooperation rather than different parties selfishly vieing ('spellcheck) for exclusive access we would have a much better situation. Ofcourse you'll get stupid drivers, but we don't close the Hume Highway off to trucks just because some drivers a stupid. Encourage people to cooperate and the nett effect will be positive.

[Phoenix]

Nobody wants exclusive access to the tracks, the ideas of doing it through the clubs is utilising a formal framework that is already in place, not because they want to limit who has access. Peoples thoughts are always going to be how to open up access as easily as possible, and how to administer it easily.

I'm not saying that it's the best or only way, it's a way of doing it. I agree about the club politics though, avery group that I know of seems to be plauged with political problems, from the Australian Air Force Cadets to military vehicle clubs, 4wd clubs, and even forums. It's not for everybody, and as you said, it shouldn't be limited to those groups.

[p38arover]

Of course you'll get stupid drivers, but we don't close the Hume Highway off to trucks just because some drivers a stupid.

No, but you ban all P-plate drivers from V8s (including old Landies) because a few get themselves killed.

You take guns away from sporting shooters because a few people (usually non-shooters) kill others.

You take away crackers (fireworks) from the rest of us because of a few idiots.

etc.

Ron

[cartm58]

and now after 350 years of record carol singing in a cathedral, the children of the choir have been banned from carrying lighted candles and been issued with light sticks due to the fear of some parents that their child hair may be set alight.

yet the previous 349 years not one case of child hair being set alight been recorded.

we should just trust Darwian theory of natural selection and let the morons remove themselves naturally from the human gene pool.

this way we merely preserving and promoting morons

[BigJon]

we should just trust Darwian theory of natural selection and let the morons remove themselves naturally from the human gene pool.

this way we merely preserving and promoting morons

Damn Straight!

[DRanged]

The Parks & Forests belong to the people, not to clubs. If I don't want to become involved with club politics, that shouldn't stop me from taking my family camping to remote areas.

On bad tracks I always end up doing some track maintenance - and I don't even mind scouting out a bad track, then going back and spending a day getting through, making it servicable again. I think if there was a spirit of cooperation rather than different parties selfishly vieing ('spellcheck) for exclusive access we would have a much better situation. Ofcourse you'll get stupid drivers, but we don't close the Hume Highway off to trucks just because some drivers a stupid. Encourage people to cooperate and the nett effect will be positive.

I understand where you are coming from but, if the clubs get controlled access to some places it is better than no access at all. Also in a club your have more chance of culling the idiots.

Just one very important point. THE ONLY TRUE WILDERNESS IS BETWEEN A GREENIES EARS!!

Regards Justin

[Blknight.aus]

The Parks & Forests belong to the people, not to clubs. If I don't want to become involved with club politics, that shouldn't stop me from taking my family camping to remote areas.

On bad tracks I always end up doing some track maintenance - and I don't even mind scouting out a bad track, then going back and spending a day getting through, making it servicable again. I think if there was a spirit of cooperation rather than different parties selfishly vieing ('spellcheck) for exclusive access we would have a much better situation. Ofcourse you'll get stupid drivers, but we don't close the Hume Highway off to trucks just because some drivers a stupid. Encourage people to cooperate and the nett effect will be positive.

Micheal's nailed my point exactly I didnt mean for access to be restircted to clubs but more like a bus pass, anyone can have one. Hell bring back the work for the dole scheme and make the buggers sit on their asses on a gate by themsleves for 15 hours a day to collect full price off of people who dont have the passes.

[rangieman]

Its called civil rights, doesn't really matter why.
Why would you own something is a personal choice.
I loved both my pump action gun and beretta 22 cal semi auto coz I inherited them from my dad and they were masterpieces. It was a privilige to be given them.
Scrap now, and no amount of money will let me forget or forgive that tyrant.

Yes i also inherited my browning semi auto 12g from my dad it had a lot of memorys to me

and ron no offence but it is the ileagle use of firearms that caused all the bad media attention towards us legal honest people of this country

i for one are a licenced registered owner by law

you are intitled to you opinion but unless you are qualified to coment or experienced dont coment , a lack knowledge is dangerous as we have all found out over the years

[Bushie]

Parks in NSW are normally closed:twisted: but have always been accessable to RFS and NPWS firefighters.

Baz.
Plenty of trails in NSW parks have been permanently closed over the years, especially those in areas declared wilderness.


Martyn

[Grizzly_Adams]

I think one of the advantages of registering and having to pick up the keys to such areas is that people think twice before being dimwits because they can have their access revoked.

[Bush65]

I have a fair bit to do with the 4wd nsw-act association and knowledge of negotiations with npws and state forrests.

npws are practically broke, do not have enough rangers in the field. Too many at the main offices in Sydney, which soak up a lot of funds. They have so much area (that is ever expanding because of the greens in out state parliment) to manage, but not enough people or funds.

Many of the rangers in the field are very good and would like to have 4wd people involved - do a little work etc.

The main problem (as far as we are concerned) with npws are those, mainly in the Sydney office who are greenies and are against 4wd's.

The other problem is to do with their charter, particularly the part to do with the condition of tracks. Many tracks are closed because they don't have the money and staff in the field to maintain them.

As far as access to fire trails by rfs, I agree with the comments that they have become inaccessable.

It is very clear that the fire outbreaks, which take weeks/months to extinguish, occur far more in the national parks, than sf. Members of rfs, for years have refered to the npws as national sparks and wildfires.

Jon Jenkins has a bill before parliment that could make a lot of difference. Unfortunately he has been struck with serious health problems, but we are hopeful that this bill will get through. He has worked very hard for us, it is regretable that he won't be able to continue.

The biggest problem is the rabid greens. They are succesful with their agenda because they hold the balance of power in the upper house.

They are managing to get more and more area converted to np and to exclude our access. It suits them that there are not enough funds to manage the parks as they want them untouched and are blind to the consequences, with weeds, ferals, wildfires etc.

One of the latest things they have won, is the green belt from Nelson Bay to the Watagans, which comes into effect mid next year. We have lost a lot of the Mt Sugaloaf area, including the test/training track near Freemans Waterhole. I am not sure what implications this will have on Stockton Beach.

[JohnE]

Hear hear
how many times has the issue of access to fire trails been brought up in other forums. The ever increasing green fringe have a lot to answer for.
Locking gates removing access, reducing and not doing controlled burns I have been led to believe are the main reasons for the horrendous fires have been having.
Whats the point in locking up a national park if you can't get into it other than walking? Not everybody is a walker, what about the horse riders locked out of the high country. the list goes on.
It is nice to have a declared wilderness but how the hell are people supposed to see it, i don't know if the greens can explain that!
Whilst controlled access can be a good thing, total access itself is better.

john

[p38arover]

you are intitled to you opinion but unless you are qualified to coment or experienced dont coment , a lack knowledge is dangerous as we have all found out over the years

I could say the same about you commenting on government, politics, pollies, or a host of other things.

I merely asked why you'd want a gun. In fact my question, in its entirety was "Why?"

If you look at a subsequent post, I said:


You take guns away from sporting shooters because a few people (usually non-shooters) kill others.

Isn't that the same as what you said in your post?

I admit I have no interest in owning a gun. I have never said that others shouldn't own them. I have friends who are shooters.

So I can't see why you are making that offensive statement. I can comment as much as I like. The fact that I don't own a gun doesn't preclude me from commenting. That's democracy.

Ron

[Grizzly_Adams]

So I can't see why you are making that offensive statement. I can comment as much as I like. The fact that I don't own a gun doesn't preclude me from commenting. That's democracy.


Actually it's Freedom of Speech... but now I'm just being pedantic :D

[p38arover]

Actually it's Freedom of Speech... but now I'm just being pedantic :D

:D

Ron

[rangieman]

:D

Ron


i did say you are able to comment and i didnt knock that:eek: ,

and if you think i was making a offensive statemaent SORRY !

it was not my intenion to offend you and if you took it that way i can not take it back:p

so whats ya prob:angel:

[p38arover]

i did say you are able to comment and i didnt knock that:eek: ,

You said:


you are intitled to you opinion but unless you are qualified to coment or experienced dont coment , a lack knowledge is dangerous as we have all found out over the years

Ron

[dungarover]

This was bound to happen one day and it has unfortunatley. What's the point of having these wilderness areas if they're burnt to a sinder because the firefighters can't get in and combat bushfires.

As a taxpayer, I should be entitled to go wherever, do whatever and see whatever I choose without confronting locked gates, fees, idiot greenies, etc.. So much for a democracy :(

Like Justin said, the only wilderness is between a greenies ears, that and bong resin :D

Trav

[Disco300Tdi]

Wasn't Ray (Hiline) locked inside the Alpine National Park a few years ago?

[D110V8D]

Wasn't Ray (Hiline) locked inside the Alpine National Park a few years ago?

Yes he was.

[p38arover]

It happened in the Blue Mountains to myself and a few others a few years back.

We'd gone into a really nice place, found an open area with a cattlemen's hut. It poured during the night but we were snug with a fire going.

The next day when we left, someone had dragged a bloody great log across the access track blocking our egress. The would have needed more than a 4Wd to do it so we suspect it was the NPWS. We had to winch it out of the way to get out. There was no other way, even if we had back tracked to the campsite. When we checked around, we found that there had been a locked gate at that location but that someone had oxy cut the gate off and dragged it into the bush (not us!).

When we had gone in the previous day we had seen the motorbike tracks.

Ron

[D110V8D]

This was bound to happen one day and it has unfortunatley. What's the point of having these wilderness areas if they're burnt to a sinder because the firefighters can't get in and combat bushfires.

As a taxpayer, I should be entitled to go wherever, do whatever and see whatever I choose without confronting locked gates, fees, idiot greenies, etc.. So much for a democracy :(

Like Justin said, the only wilderness is between a greenies ears, that and bong resin :D

Trav

Greenies dont lock gates. Lack of funds do. If parks cant maintain a track usually it is closed. As is the case with some tracks in Vic they get to the point of being a public liability claim waiting to happen.

Easier for parks to just lock the gate and throw away the key so to speak.

[dungarover]

Bugger the national parks, the pollies need to spend there money on there pay rise, goverment cars, expensive dinners, overseas holidays while you and I pay for it with taxes and that lovely thing called the GST :mad: :mad: :mad:

Pollies are the scum of the earth full stop. I feel better now.

Trav

[p38arover]

it was not my intenion to offend you and if you took it that way i can not take it back:p

Sorted! Thanks Chris. I misread your intent. :)

Ron

[Ace]

Some people are missing the point. Getting 4wd clubs involved isnt to restrict access, christ it cant be more restricted than it is.

If people dont want to join a club thats their choice, but as phoenix said utilising 4wd clubs as an existing network is an excellent way to keep tracks open and maintained, for free! There are literally hundreds of 4wd clubs accross the country, all of these 4wd clubs would be more than willing to organise working bee days to help maintian tracks and keep them clear. Simply using the tracks keeps them clear. The locked gates should be removed and then 4wd clubs should be able to put their hand up to help look after that section of track.

More thought needs to be put into it and the NPWS resourced need to be better used. A locked gate at the begining of every track isnt the answer. Matt

[broonski]

Ok, someone correct me if i'm wrong...
But the NPWS is a government department and all the land marked as national parks is owned by the government, therefore is owned by the people (the government simply being our representatives, of sorts).
So why is it that our own land can be locked up and none of us be allowed to use it, see it and enjoy it?

NPWS rangers spend most of their time holed up in offices in the middle of Sydney applying for funding because the NPWS is underfunded. And because of this lack of funding, tracks can't be maintained. But would the tracks be opened if NPWS could afford to maintain them? I'm guessing probably not, because as soon as the tracks are opened it leaves the NPWS wide open to public liability law suits (and lots of them!)

As for the fire trails being opened, not only would they provide better access for fire crews, it would provide more options for missing persons searches (like the recent episode in the Blue mountains)

I don't disagree with getting 4wd clubs involved with maintenance and the like and I would happily join in with the maintenance myself (being a non-club member), but there needs to be a simpler way to manage the key to these tracks (eventhough I totally disagree with the tracks being locked in the first place!) for people like myself, and quite a few others on this forum, who don't want to go through all the club politics etc. (as michael2 posted earlier)

anyway, that's my 2 bob worth...

cheers,
bryce

[LoadedDisco]

The fire trails should be opened up to only accredited 4x4 clubs. The clubs should be able to put in submissions as to what tracks they would like to cover in the state or national reserve to get access and the club should have to fill in a report sheet at the end of the trip which would have what tracks had tree obstructions that the 4x4 club has now cleared and all tracks traveled should also be marked as a current grading as found on the trip to update government or state rangers records for fire access availability if trucks like rural fire could accesses them or only SES 4x4 ?.