Gas installed in the D2

[walker]

I finally got the D2 installed with LPG. I got the Landi Renzo system which was installed by Range-Rov in Melbourne. Range-Rov also do all the servicing on the Disco so it made sense to use them.

I researched a fair bit before the install and I still think the OMVL Dream system may be the best around but the Landi system is definately not far behind, if not equal with it.

The install under the bonnet is very fairly neat with everything using existing bolt holes so no new holes had to be drilled for mounting the gear, except of course the drill and tap for the new gas injectors.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/12/88.jpg

They installed the filler for the LPG in behind the petrol filler flap which is great. The other installers I looked at all put the filler in the lower quarter panel.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/12/89.jpg

I had scuba tanks installed and as part of the install they make a false floor over the tanks which makes everything nice and neat. The tanks are 70litre with 62litre usable.....or something like that.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/12/90.jpg


The price was $4100. After driving it so far I can't feel any difference between petrol and gas as far as performance goes. If anything, it is a bit more responsive on gas but I reckon the mapping on my Disco has been bad from new and it has always felt slow.
The price is about the same as the 3 other installers a talked too but none of the others could do Scuba tanks. I have been told that power will be down about 5% on gas but when they dyno'd it the torque was up by 20nm on gas in the 2000-3000 RPM range. Fuel economy should be 5-10% worse on gas as well but I will let you know what the real worl figures are when I get them.

NOW THE BAD POINTS.

1. Unfortunately they found my radiator was full of mud and had started coroding so i had to buy a new one.

2. They tried to bill me for more than I was quoted because apparently it cost more than they expected or took longer or something. Anyway in the end after a bit of an argument they came to the party and agreed to the original price


3. One of the other reasons I went with Range-Rov was because when they talked me through how they do the install, I was impressed that they put the gas ECU inside the vehicle rather than under the bonnet. this way it is protected from mud and water just like the standard V8 ecu is. When I got the Disco home and started looking over everything I went looking for the ECU............I find it in the jack compartment under the bonnet.:mad:


But all that said, I would definately recomend Range-rov for a gas install.

[DeeJay]

Good news Adam,and good pics too.
A series 2 has been on the shopping list, but the d1 is going great at present.
I look forward to reading the economy feedback once you have done a few klm's.
One thought though.
I can't help thinking the bad points 1 and 2 are related.
I have never heard of a radiator corroding, maybe I should get out more, but are'nt they either Aluminium or copper?
Did you see it?
I don't have an axe to grind with Range rov, they have given good service on the odd occasion I have been there, but it does'nt sound right to me, but I could be wrong.

[walker]

I am not sure about the coroding question but I do know a few people that have had similar problems. I have kept the old radiator as a spare and the bottom section was very clogged up with mud.

I will clean it all out and it will do a a spare if I ever need it.

No.1 & 2 are not related as I paid extra for the replacement of the radiator on top of the gas install.

[p38arover]

1. Unfortunately they found my radiator was full of mud and had started coroding so i had to buy a new one..

Why did they need to take the radiator out (thus finding it faulty) to fit the LPG system?

Ron

[100I]

Why did they need to take the radiator out (thus finding it faulty) to fit the LPG system?

Ron

Good question really - don't the injected systems run at full pressure to the injectors? and so doing away with the need for engine coolant to keep gas from freezing? On a regular system the coolant would likley be dropped but mayb not so on this?

[walker]

????????? No idea. I assumed it was done as part of the standard install.

They also did a 30,000km service at the same time but I can't imagine that would include checking the radiator.

I am glad that they did because when I saw the old radiator I don't think it would have done a good job cooling the engine with it on gas.

I do admit I did treat the Disco pretty badly in it's first 10,000km of life. It has been places like Walker's Tk and anyone who has done that track will know just how hard it is on the vehicle.

Now that i have the Rangie the Disco only gets used for touring and everyday driving so hopefully I won't have as many problems with it in the future.

[tombraider]

Good news Adam,and good pics too.
A series 2 has been on the shopping list, but the d1 is going great at present.
I look forward to reading the economy feedback once you have done a few klm's.
One thought though.
I can't help thinking the bad points 1 and 2 are related.
I have never heard of a radiator corroding, maybe I should get out more, but are'nt they either Aluminium or copper?
Did you see it?
I don't have an axe to grind with Range rov, they have given good service on the odd occasion I have been there, but it does'nt sound right to me, but I could be wrong.

Aluminium (and Copper) both Corrode (oxidise)

Add heat and moisture to the equation and its well under way to dying.

Bugs body acid really rips into the tubes and can kill them double time.

Never heard of a radiator corroding? Man its the common reason for replacement...

[tombraider]

Good question really - don't the injected systems run at full pressure to the injectors? and so doing away with the need for engine coolant to keep gas from freezing? On a regular system the coolant would likley be dropped but mayb not so on this?

System is "Vapour" injection, it still has a converter in the coolant line to vapourise the LPG...

The LPG then sits behind "injectors" (solonoids) mounted to the manifold and fired by the supplimentary ECU as required.

So no, not true LPG injection.

[Tank]

Adam, a Unichip is what you need now, that way you can have it set your ignition system up for optimal performance on LPG and petrol as there are multiple ingition mapping scenarios. Ignition system for petrol is not conducive to good performance on LPG, Regards Frank.

[tombraider]

Adam, a Unichip is what you need now, that way you can have it set your ignition system up for optimal performance on LPG and petrol as there are multiple ingition mapping scenarios. Ignition system for petrol is not conducive to good performance on LPG, Regards Frank.

The LPG has its own ECU...

As for D2s the Unichip gains very very little, no more economy, marginal power increase...

Most of the performance increase on a Unichip D2 is the weight reduction to the Drivers Right rear pocket.

D1 is a different story, however why fit a Unichip when a complete aftermarket system is not much different in $$$.

[walker]

Yep, I agree. I looked into chipping a while back and there was not much point with the D2 V8. And as Mke said, the gas has it's own ECU anyway. Apparently it advances the ignition significantly when on gas. I was told that when running it on gas all the time, to make sure I use premium petrol in the tank. Everytime you start the car it starts on petrol before changing over to gas. Apparently it can ping a bit if you don't used premium as it takes a little while for the computer to advancement of the gas.
If I am going to be running it on petrol for a while (like outback trips) then standard unleaded is fine.


What I am not sure of is: if there are 2 ecu's (1 for petrol and 1 for gas) why cant the changes in the mapping be almost instant which would mean no pinging??

[Slunnie]

The mapping change can be instant. We use the Haltech at work for one of the comp cars we have, and you would be amazed at how quicky it responds. The problem though is probably in the transition where the petrol is run out after starting and the gas is fed in, where the 2 fuels have different properties.

[byron]

D1 is a different story, however why fit a Unichip when a complete aftermarket system is not much different in $$$.

At the risk of being accused of hi-jacking this thread......Do you [coz I know you're involved with re-chipping and re-mapping Diesels - not sure if you're into Petrol also] of a straight forward plug-in or replacement chip or complete ECU that would be suitable for a V8 Disco 1?.......we all know that they run too rich at mid range and cruise, and too lean at high speed and full power......just wondering if there's something around you can just fit and just play around with ignition initial timing?????coz both the ignition system and the hot wire EFI is pretty basic/simple.

[mrapocalypse]

Are your tanks 3 smaller ones manifolded together?

I'm booked in for Jan with a vapour injection system too on the DII so your post was most interesting.

I'm getting the work done by Memmotts in Brisbane. They were recomended and the guy says he has done another install on a DII. But they all say that don't they.

Premmium is running at $1.23/L here.

Ian

[p38arover]

System is "Vapour" injection, it still has a converter in the coolant line to vapourise the LPG...

The LPG then sits behind "injectors" (solonoids) mounted to the manifold and fired by the supplimentary ECU as required.

So no, not true LPG injection.

Usually called SGI - Sequential Gas Injection?

Ron

[walker]

Are your tanks 3 smaller ones manifolded together?

I'm booked in for Jan with a vapour injection system too on the DII so your post was most interesting.

I'm getting the work done by Memmotts in Brisbane. They were recomended and the guy says he has done another install on a DII. But they all say that don't they.

Premmium is running at $1.23/L here.

Ian

Yes 3 tanks joined together, they are the ones used in the falcon wagon

[walker]

Did the first fill-up today.

Spent the past 2 days driving in peak hour traffic and got 22l/100km which sounds about right. I'm sure (hope) it will be a bit better with normal driving although I was usually getting 19-20l/100km on petrol.

The best thing was when I worked out the cost it came to $8.60/100km :D :D :D

Once thing does worry me though. The red light lit up on the gas guage after had only done 165km! As far as I knew the tank should be 60 litres usable. I was getting worried thinking I was going to be getting over 30l/100km but when I filled up it only took 39 litres. I will see how it goes on this tank and will take it rightout to empty but I am wondering whether the tanks are filling up properly.

[tempestv8]

Hi Adam,

Nice pics. Can I ask you to check your fuel consumption when you do the big trip to Brisbane?

:)

Lawrance
(from Hong Kong)

[LRDV8]

i got mine done at LPGAS 1 and by reading this post and a few before i'm a bit surprised by my fuel economy. I'm only getting average 270 (290max) in peak hour out of a 72 useable tank (usually only fills up 65-70L as i don't run it dry)

this means i'm only getting an average of 25-26L/100Km !!:o

[walker]

i got mine done at LPGAS 1 and by reading this post and a few before i'm a bit surprised by my fuel economy. I'm only getting average 270 (290max) in peak hour out of a 72 useable tank (usually only fills up 65-70L as i don't run it dry)

this means i'm only getting an average of 25-26L/100Km !!:o

Unfortunately for you those figures are about right for the LPG1 gas install. It is not a sequential gas injection system so it is not closed loop so fuel economy and power will be down a fair bit....but it is cheaper.

[ladas]

Did the first fill-up today.

Spent the past 2 days driving in peak hour traffic and got 22l/100km which sounds about right. I'm sure (hope) it will be a bit better with normal driving although I was usually getting 19-20l/100km on petrol.

The best thing was when I worked out the cost it came to $8.60/100km :D :D :D

Once thing does worry me though. The red light lit up on the gas guage after had only done 165km! As far as I knew the tank should be 60 litres usable. I was getting worried thinking I was going to be getting over 30l/100km but when I filled up it only took 39 litres. I will see how it goes on this tank and will take it rightout to empty but I am wondering whether the tanks are filling up properly.

I am yet to see an accurate LPG gauge in a car.

[LoadedDisco]

I always wondered how those tanks filled to there stamped limit. With a normal gas bottle you have the pressure release valve where you undo it and fill the bottle until a heap of fresh frosty gas flows out it and you know the bottle is full. But with a car how dose this work to fill the car bottle to full if you do not have a pressure release valve to check when the gas gets to the top and pores out. ?

[DeeJay]

Loaded Disco.
With the "frosty gas" you are basically letting gas flow from 1 cylinder to another, this is called decanting and relies on a pressure differential- ie depressurising the recieving cyl by opening a bleeder. The sending cyl needs a special valve that draws from the bottom of the cyl ie liquid withdrawal.
With autogas you are PUMPING the liquid gas in and they generally spray fill which tends to lower the vapour pressure build up. In any case the vapour will turn to liquid under enough pressure.
The AFL (Automatic fill limiter) is basically a float valve that stops filling by closing the valve- like a dunny cistern- at around 80%
I would say that each of the 3 cyls would have an AFL and when 1 fills then the other 2 get more gas until full.
Clear as mud:)

[disco_ute]

Loaded Disco.
With the "frosty gas" you are basically letting gas flow from 1 cylinder to another, this is called decanting and relies on a pressure differential- ie depressurising the recieving cyl by opening a bleeder. The sending cyl needs a special valve that draws from the bottom of the cyl ie liquid withdrawal.
With autogas you are PUMPING the liquid gas in and they generally spray fill which tends to lower the vapour pressure build up. In any case the vapour will turn to liquid under enough pressure.
The AFL (Automatic fill limiter) is basically a float valve that stops filling by closing the valve- like a dunny cistern- at around 80%
I would say that each of the 3 cyls would have an AFL and when 1 fills then the other 2 get more gas until full.
Clear as mud:)

so over 3 tanks he looses 60% useable lpg..... I would want much bigger tanks.... maybe you could get some fitted in yr off road trailr walker?? Fork lift bottles?

[tombraider]

so over 3 tanks he looses 60% useable lpg..... I would want much bigger tanks.... maybe you could get some fitted in yr off road trailr walker?? Fork lift bottles?

No, the tanks are joined and there is only one AFL...

So 3x30l tanks would be 1x90l tank

AFL would cut in at 72l

[disco_ute]

No, the tanks are joined and there is only one AFL...

So 3x30l tanks would be 1x90l tank

AFL would cut in at 72l

right stilll i small amount of gas.... i produce more then that after 6 beers:D

[walker]

right stilll i small amount of gas.... i produce more then that after 6 beers:D

Yes, we know you do! :p

[LoadedDisco]

No, the tanks are joined and there is only one AFL...

So 3x30l tanks would be 1x90l tank

AFL would cut in at 72l

DeeJay and Tombraider and all others thanks you have totally answered my question. Thats still a lot of gas and mileage from those tanks. I would say on a very rough guess that would give you another 500Km. ?

[walker]

You wish, I don't think you would ever get the economy that good.

I am pretty sure the tanks I have are meant to give 62l useable. That should give me around 300km of city driving.

[LRDV8]

Unfortunately for you those figures are about right for the LPG1 gas install. It is not a sequential gas injection system so it is not closed loop so fuel economy and power will be down a fair bit....but it is cheaper.


therin lies the problem cause it wasn't that much cheaper...... it still cost me $3950 !!! did i get ripped ?

[100I]

i got mine done at LPGAS 1 and by reading this post and a few before i'm a bit surprised by my fuel economy. I'm only getting average 270 (290max) in peak hour out of a 72 useable tank (usually only fills up 65-70L as i don't run it dry)

this means i'm only getting an average of 25-26L/100Km !!:o
Don't despair just yet, talk to your fitter. Mine was comparable economy to petrol when I first got it back, then it began to plummet. But I've seen it before with the new fitouts to our forklifts, so I knew what was up. Not that I'm a gas expert, but it appears it is due to diaghrams etc settling in, all quite normal.
So anyway the moral of the story is get it in to be retuned atfter the first 50hrs or so.

[grumpybastard]

Resurrecting this thread :)

I gave Range-Rov a call today install is now $5800

The petrol tank is removed and scuba tanks are installed giving 73 litres for LPG.. plenty really for LPG.

Now for the issue... a petrol tank is installed in the RHS wheel arch that holds 50 litres...

50 litres = ~ 200kms now thats not far at all!

Asked about sill tanks or other options but Range-Rov aren't interested in doing that, which is fair enough.

Rang, Brown Davis they can fit a sill mount aux 62 litre tank for approx $1200 fitted.

Rang Long Range, they have a 51 litre sill tank thats $990 fitted but asked if i had ACE and SLS which i confirmed. They "said they couldn't help me" When i asked why? they said "the compressor was on one side and ACE on the other side." Im pretty certain both are on the drivers side and the passenger side sill is clear?

Brown Davis said that they would prefer to put both sill and wheel arch tanks in (as some modifications are required to the wheel arch tank for the sill tank to feed into it)...and remove the existing fuel tank $2200 and then to take it into Range-Rov for a straight LPG install.

Rang Range-Rov to find out price for a straight LPG install but waiting on a return phone call.

I suppose my question is ....

If i go with a std Range-Rov install will there be any issues installing a sill tank later?

$5800 less Gov rebate of $2000 = $3800 which doesn't look to bad

Start throwing in sill tanks etc its looking to be $5000+ :(

[matbor]

Guess it depends on how long you are going to keep the car for and how many KM's you do a year !

If you are only doing 20,000kms a year, you want see any real benefit for at least 2 years !

[PAT303]

On my D1 I have two sill tanks and the original petrol tank.The sill tanks hold 52 usable litres that give me 270klms range to empty.Mine ran like a dog not long after I got it done (That i'm told is common as the diaphram softens) but a dyno tune fixed it and it has run fine ever since.The set-up cost me $4800 and save's me $48-$52 a week so after the $2000 return I should save after a bit over a year in fuel. Pat

[grumpybastard]

Guess it depends on how long you are going to keep the car for and how many KM's you do a year !

If you are only doing 20,000kms a year, you want see any real benefit for at least 2 years !

Yep i did some rough figures a while ago ... i think i broke even around the 26,000km mark...

My cars normally last me a long time and "Sally" is part of the family now, apart from wining Tattslotto shes with us for at least the next 5 years

[matbor]

Here is a quick spreadsheet I did a while back to work out the savings etc, you have to fill in all the correct details, i.e fuel cost etc, etc... Not sure if it is 100% correct, but is a good guideline.

Download spreadsheet here. (http://www.mediafire.com/?5zsqxcwc39c)

Matt.

[Slunnie]

Rang Long Range, they have a 51 litre sill tank thats $990 fitted but asked if i had ACE and SLS which i confirmed. They "said they couldn't help me" When i asked why? they said "the compressor was on one side and ACE on the other side." Im pretty certain both are on the drivers side and the passenger side sill is clear?
SLS is on the passengers side, and ACE is on the drivers side.

I guess it depends on where you want the tanks.I'm pretty sure Walker has his scuba tanks in the boot and decked over with shelves/drawers, and a LRA 150l tank under the rear.

[grumpybastard]

SLS is on the passengers side, and ACE is on the drivers side.

I guess it depends on where you want the tanks.I'm pretty sure Walker has his scuba tanks in the boot and decked over with shelves/drawers, and a LRA 150l tank under the rear.

I must crawl underneath and have a better look, must be somewhere for a tank under there :)

Yep Walker does, but mines a 7 seater (and the 3rd row seats get used)



Here is a quick spreadsheet I did a while back to work out the savings etc, you have to fill in all the correct details, i.e fuel cost etc, etc... Not sure if it is 100% correct, but is a good guideline.

Download spreadsheet here. (http://www.mediafire.com/?5zsqxcwc39c)

Matt.

Thats an awesone little spreadsheet Matt...youre such a Geek :)

Yep worked out 26,900kms so i was pretty close... in reality it would be less than that towing the caravan doubles the fuel consumption :eek:

About 12 months to break even...

Interesting that it's 25% cheaper to run on LPG than Diesel!

[matbor]

I must crawl underneath and have a better look, must be somewhere for a tank under there :)

Yep Walker does, but mines a 7 seater (and the 3rd row seats get used)




Thats an awesone little spreadsheet Matt...youre such a Geek :)

Yep worked out 26,900kms so i was pretty close... in reality it would be less than that towing the caravan doubles the fuel consumption :eek:

About 12 months to break even...

Interesting that it's 25% cheaper to run on LPG than Diesel!

I know i'm a geek :p, was bored at work one day :)

Will you be running GAS while towing the Van ? have heard that the fuel consumption is very high which means you'll need those extra petrol tanks !

Walker --- have you done any more runs towing on GAS what is the fuel consumption like now ??

[grumpybastard]

I know i'm a geek :p, was bored at work one day :)

Will you be running GAS while towing the Van ? have heard that the fuel consumption is very high which means you'll need those extra petrol tanks !

Walker --- have you done any more runs towing on GAS what is the fuel consumption like now ??

I cant see why Gas would be worse than towing using petrol, well not with this system anyway... as power is slightly up on petrol?

I work rule of thumb when towing the van that fuel usage doubles, not strictly true, but it makes the maths easy...

If we use the same theory then range on LPG would only be about 200kms! :eek:

Walker do you have a picture of the LPG gauge inside the Disco? Where did they put it and how ugly is it?

[p38arover]

KLR Automotive will put in two sill LPG tanks on Discovery 1s so that the rear compartment is not affected in any way, nor is the standard petrol tank - whic is what I plan to do if I buy a D1 V8.

Ron

[Gillie]

Speaking of KLR. http://www.dieselgas.com.au/landrover.htm
Some amazing power increases and economy found here. Takes about 100,000 km to break even though.

[p38arover]

I wouldn't use fuel savings as a reason to do the LPG fumigation on a diesel - I'd do it for the power.

Ron

[matbor]

KLR Automotive will put in two sill LPG tanks on Discovery 1s so that the rear compartment is not affected in any way, nor is the standard petrol tank - whic is what I plan to do if I buy a D1 V8.

Ron

What size tanks are the sill ones ?

[Tank]

Yep, I agree. I looked into chipping a while back and there was not much point with the D2 V8. And as Mke said, the gas has it's own ECU anyway. Apparently it advances the ignition significantly when on gas. I was told that when running it on gas all the time, to make sure I use premium petrol in the tank. Everytime you start the car it starts on petrol before changing over to gas. Apparently it can ping a bit if you don't used premium as it takes a little while for the computer to advancement of the gas.
If I am going to be running it on petrol for a while (like outback trips) then standard unleaded is fine.


What I am not sure of is: if there are 2 ecu's (1 for petrol and 1 for gas) why cant the changes in the mapping be almost instant which would mean no pinging??
It seems that if the motor pings on petrol the LPG ECU is not adjusting the timing to suit petrol and there shouldn't be a delay because petrol fuel injection ceases immediately you switch to LPG, unlike Carburetted engines which need to run the Carby dry, Regards Frank.

[p38arover]

What size tanks are the sill ones ?

About 30 litres or so each - give the same useable as the manifold (scuba) tanks in the rear.

Ron

[PAT303]

p38arover you are right at about 30 litres which gives you about 52-54 usable litres.I will put pic's in of my settup if anyone wants them.My gauge doesn't read very accurrate but it is neat on the dash.The one good thing with them is no loss of room or back seats.Rumbles at Dungog did the fitting and I'm giving very serious thought of getting the defender done. Pat

[PAT303]

I just looked at that link and my defender has been dynoed and only gave 350foot pounds of torque.How can there's be so high? Pat

[p38arover]

The torque measured is the engine torque multiplied by the transmission ratios, e.g. diff, etc.

Ron

[PAT303]

Mine was run and power measured at the wheels 350 is all it got.There talking 900-1000.They should build F1 engines if thats what they get. Pat

[p38arover]

Who did it? There's a possibility they correct for the diff ratio.

[PAT303]

When the tune was done I got a printout showing 66hp 350lbft. Pat

[HAK]

I cant find anyone to install the suba tank size tanks here in nsw :(