Check Engine Light - Freelander

[101RRS]

Hi - I am after some help with a small problem I have with my L series diesel freelander.

The engine is a 4 cylinder diesel with ECU controlled injection pump. The accelerator is fly by wire.

I drove to work OK and at lunch I went to go out and I noticed that on start up, the engine RPM blipped to 1800 then settled back to normal idle of around 850. As the engine revs came back down to idle the 'check engine' light came on. I switched off and went back through the startup routine - on turning on the ignition all the lights did the right thing and went out - which indicates the "fault" is not being stored in the ECU - on starting the engine, exactly the same happens - there is initially no check engine light, the engine starts and immediately blips to 1800rpm and when coming back to idle the "check engine" cames on.

The engine runs OK and will happily drive the car around - covered about 60km at lunch - no problems but the check engine light stays on.

My thoughts are that the blip in RPM is not being generated by the ECU (or the check engine light would come on first) but is being generated by something else (such as the accelerator potentiometer) and the blip in revs is being detected by the the ECU and sending a fault message.

Any ideas as my only real option in Canberra to fix is to take it to the stealer which I am not keen on doing.

Thanks

Garry

[BigJon]

I think that you will have to have the ECU fault codes read from its memory. That should give you a direction to look.

[dmdigital]

Not sure, but I think the tacho is driven by the ECU. In which case you'll potentially need to get it interogated and faults cleared. The ECU would still need to get the engine speed from a sensor, but I don't know where. It could be from the Alternator or from a sensor on the crank. So it may be a faulty connection.

Sorry I'm not sounding to helpful when I re-read this:confused:

[101RRS]

Thanks Big Jon and DM - I guess I already knew that would be the answer - was just hoping someone might have had an idea - the local stealer is the stealer of all stealers so was hoping to stay away from them if I could. Guess I will have to bite the bullet.

Thanks

Gazzz

[101RRS]

There is no problem when the car is cold but the issue returns when the car is warm or hot on start up.

I guess there is a temperature sensor that tells the ecu to give it more juice when cold (like a choke) - my thoughts are this sensor has failed or stuck in the cold position so on hot starts the ECU gives the engine too much fuel - hence the rpm blip and then other sensors pick up the fault and tell the ECU and the check engine light comes on.

As I am really not keen on going to the stealers I will start going through the workshop manual and RAVE looking for a sensor that does this.

Any ideas what and where it might be - I asume there is a similar sensor on other landy diesels.

Cheers

Gazzz

[ladas]

There is no problem when the car is cold but the issue returns when the car is warm or hot on start up.

I guess there is a temperature sensor that tells the ecu to give it more juice when cold (like a choke) - my thoughts are this sensor has failed or stuck in the cold position so on hot starts the ECU gives the engine too much fuel - hence the rpm blip and then other sensors pick up the fault and tell the ECU and the check engine light comes on.

As I am really not keen on going to the stealers I will start going through the workshop manual and RAVE looking for a sensor that does this.

Any ideas what and where it might be - I asume there is a similar sensor on other landy diesels.

Cheers

Gazzz

Is your engine management system MEMS or EDC ?

[ladas]

The ECT (Engine Coolant Temp) sensor seems to control this sort of thing on both MEMS and EDC controlled vehicles.

On the EDC the sensor is located in the top of the coolant outlet elbow which is attached to the front of the cylinder head.

On the MEMS system, the sensor is screwed into a threaded port at the front of the engine/car fairly close to the ignition coil

[101RRS]

Is your engine management system MEMS or EDC ?

Not sure but EDC (Electronic Diesel Control) does ring a bell.

[George130]

In Mitchel there is a Landy specialist with the gear to read the codes. He is up near hte Cemetary end.

[101RRS]

In Mitchel there is a Landy specialist with the gear to read the codes. He is up near hte Cemetary end.

That is Canberra Motor Works - my disco always ran bad after it had been there and my wallet was always a hell of a lot lighter afterwards and I usually spent the next two weeks fixing the car myself. The last time I was there the car managed to get from the "specialist" to the Tuggy Parkway before it broke down after I had just spent nearly $600 fixing a slight miss.

I am afraid I would never recommend them. Morwoods in Fyshwick are good but don't have a machine to read codes. I will go through the books and Rave tonite and see what I come up with - at least the car runs OK and it is not an issue that is likely to cause damage.

Gazzz

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I gather you've researched this on Pommy sites?

[George130]

That is Canberra Motor Works - my disco always ran bad after it had been there and my wallet was always a hell of a lot lighter afterwards and I usually spent the next two weeks fixing the car myself. The last time I was there the car managed to get from the "specialist" to the Tuggy Parkway before it broke down after I had just spent nearly $600 fixing a slight miss.

I am afraid I would never recommend them. Morwoods in Fyshwick are good but don't have a machine to read codes. I will go through the books and Rave tonite and see what I come up with - at least the car runs OK and it is not an issue that is likely to cause damage.

Gazzz
Yea I use Morwood for my parts. The other place is Canberra motor works. They used to maintain my beast for the previous owner. I have only used them once to clear my faults after the rebuild. I have heard they are expensive but he only charged me $50 probably because I told all the work I had done since buying it.

[dmdigital]

98 Freelander diesel uses a Bosch EDC ... if it helps

[101RRS]

I have been through the rave disk - agree the most likely culprit is the coolant temp sensor and or the air temp sensor. Removed both tonite and replaced just to see if there was anything obvious - of course there was not and when reinstalled of course the fault remains - so I guess it is off to get the codes checked - gee whizz I hate stealers.

As a side the air temp sensor that sits in the inlet manifold was covered in thick, black gunk so I guess that the entire inlet system including the intercooler is the same so maybe a cleanout is needed - as it doesn't burn oil I assume the oil seals in the turbo are OK and the oil deposits are just the result of 213K use.

Thanks for the help.

Garry

[101RRS]

How is this for the way ahead for future serviceing by Landrover.

I rang the stealer to book in to get the codes read - I have to supply the rego number and Vin Number before they will even book the car in.

I said that I didn't have the Vin with me but you don't need any of that to just read the codes - they said sorry we cannot book the car in.

OK - why don't you book the car in and I can either ring in the Vin or better still get it off the car when it is in.

Response - sorry sir but our computer system does not allow the booking of a car in for work without all the relevant fields being filled and that includes rego and vin. No VIN = No booking.

My response - no booking = no work to your garage forever

WTF - no wonder stealers get a bad name.

Result is that I will make alternative arrangements cause as a matter of principle I am not going near them. Might have to go to the crappy specialist afterall - at least they do not need 'all the fields' on their computer filled in before a booking is made.

You wouldn't buy a new landrover for the servicing support.

Gazzz

[dmdigital]

I'd ring back ask for the manager of the dealership and tell them what has happened. If their booking system is that flawed then yes they deserve to loose business, sounds more like an unimaginative type manning the bookings.

[Scouse]

I'd imagine they're doing that to make it easier when you drop the car off. I'm sure there's nothing sinister about it.

These days, all the job cards are done by computer & it can take a while to load all the neccessary info into all the fields for a "new" customer.
To save themselves & yourself 10-15min at the busiest time of the day (first thing in the morning), they can have the job card pre-printed the day before & have it all ready for you to sign when you drop off the Freelander.

I'd say to get a basic job card done, they'd need your VIN & rego #. They can get the other details from LR (Viking) that they need: engine number, model type, colour, year..........& enter them accordingly.

[101RRS]

Hey Scott - I am sure you are right - it does seem to be all about making things easier for the stealer rather than the customer - cause I didn't have the Vin so wasn't able to book the car in - now booked in elsewhere for next week because when I rang they didn't need the VIN and were happy to book in then and there.

Tonite I removed the air sensor and the coolant sensor and put a multimeter on them testing resistance from boiling water temp to -18 in the freezer. All tests pointed different resistances with different temps so both seemed to be working OK. Tested the wires going to the sensors and got the required 5v so there is no wiring problem.

I put the sensors back in the engine but the problem was still there so I disconnected the wires to both - engine started OK without the sensors and the check engine light didn't come on (strange cause I would have thought the ECU should have realised the sensors were not connected).

I connected the air temp sensor and there were no problems but when I connected the coolant sensor the engine revved on start and the engine check light came on - I disconnected the air sensor and the fault remained so it would seem that the water coolant sensor is faulty when it is hot but not when it is cold.

I will get a new sensor and see what happens and if all is OK cancel the code test.

Gazzz

[George130]

How is this for the way ahead for future serviceing by Landrover.

I rang the stealer to book in to get the codes read - I have to supply the rego number and Vin Number before they will even book the car in.

I said that I didn't have the Vin with me but you don't need any of that to just read the codes - they said sorry we cannot book the car in.

OK - why don't you book the car in and I can either ring in the Vin or better still get it off the car when it is in.

Response - sorry sir but our computer system does not allow the booking of a car in for work without all the relevant fields being filled and that includes rego and vin. No VIN = No booking.

My response - no booking = no work to your garage forever

WTF - no wonder stealers get a bad name.

Result is that I will make alternative arrangements cause as a matter of principle I am not going near them. Might have to go to the crappy specialist afterall - at least they do not need 'all the fields' on their computer filled in before a booking is made.

You wouldn't buy a new landrover for the servicing support.

Gazzz

That dealer does the same when you ring up for any parts to. They want year model and vin before they give you the parts price.

[Scouse]

That dealer does the same when you ring up for any parts to. They want year model and vin before they give you the parts price.They can enter the VIN into the parts catagolue (Microcat ?) & that way it'll only bring up the parts for that vehicle. There's quite a lot of little variances between Model Years.

[101RRS]

Tonite I removed the air sensor and the coolant sensor and put a multimeter on them testing resistance from boiling water temp to -18 in the freezer. All tests pointed different resistances with different temps so both seemed to be working OK. Tested the wires going to the sensors and got the required 5v so there is no wiring problem.

I put the sensors back in the engine but the problem was still there so I disconnected the wires to both - engine started OK without the sensors and the check engine light didn't come on (strange cause I would have thought the ECU should have realised the sensors were not connected).

I connected the air temp sensor and there were no problems but when I connected the coolant sensor the engine revved on start and the engine check light came on - I disconnected the air sensor and the fault remained so it would seem that the water coolant sensor is faulty when it is hot but not when it is cold.

I will get a new sensor and see what happens and if all is OK cancel the code test.

Gazzz

Bought the new sensor and installed - shock horror the check engine light remained on.

Had the codes read and indicated a faulty coolant sensor. Once the codes were cleared the problem has gone.

So the problem was the coolant sensor but even with a new one the ecu refused to accept the sensor was seviceable and still told the engine to run like a dog. When the codes were cleared the ECU it finally decided all was OK and now all is OK.

What a load of crock - the only way the ECU codes can be cleared is via the test computer - disconnecting the battery does not work - so even with the sensors all serviceable you have to drive around in a dog - not a problem if you are near a stealer - $50 and you are on your way. What if you are not near one of the ever reducing number of dealers.

A simple button in the car to push to clear the fault codes would be real handy - if the problem continues they just come back and you do have to go to the code remover man.

Any way all fixed.

Gazzz

[ladas]

Glad to hear it's fixed, shame I wasn't located a bit closer, I could have tried out my hand held OBD II diagnostic tool - it states I can clear codes, worked on my D2. Would have love to try it on a Freelander.

The 'tool' cost me $80 on Ebay from the USA.

[mcrover]

Those bottom dwellers at stealerships deserve nothing other than our un relenting abuse as that is all customers get from them.

I have had to go to a stealership once since owning the Disco and that was for a fuel pump on a Sunday and had to borrow a car and drive from Packanham to Morwell to get it and when I got there to give him $240 cash just for a fuel pump (300Tdi mechanical) you would have thought that I killed his grand mother the looks I got.

I asked if he had to come in just because of me and he said no and he was on till 4pm, I just don't understand why people have to be like that.

When I have rang up for parts for our Jeep (rip off) Cherokee they ask for the vin number and I just tell them that they have it on file and give them the rego.

I have never given them the vin number and it has never gone to them for work to be done but it allways works for spares.

Ford cant even get it right and neither can Toyota even with the Vin numbers and engine numbers they sent out the wrong torque converter for my old company AU ute and they still can't get the right clutch for my Mums Prado.

So next time you go to a stealership be unhelpful and down right rude and then they may be able to understand you as you'll be talking their language.

Also good on LR for making a car that you are now scared to take to far off road in fear you may need a tow truck.

I hear the D3 is similar and that you need to buy a diagnostic computer as part of your touring kit just to be safe.

Ive had my winge now ;)

boi

[Pedro_The_Swift]

It might pay you to remember mcrover
we have a few of those "bottom feeders" as you call them,, as regulars on these forums. Their freely given technical knowledge and good nature helps makes this site the amazing place WE ALL come to when we have a problem,, or just for a chat.

[101RRS]

It might pay you to remember mcrover
we have a few of those "bottom feeders" as you call them,, as regulars on these forums. Their freely given technical knowledge and good nature helps makes this site the amazing place WE ALL come to when we have a problem,, or just for a chat.

And the dealer people on this site are great and I would think they would actually support much of the criticism leveled at their bretheren. Indeed many a time, if I recall correctly, these great people have helped us to get the best out of our dealers.

So when critiscm is being levelled at stealers, I we are refering to the dealer culture and at times at specific dealerships but never at individuals - it is the culture which I have a problem with and unfortunately it is this culture that is also reflected by the culture in the parent company.

Dealer people on the forum - you are great and I for one value your information and advice on the tricks of the trade but I still despise your brothers (so to speak).

Gazz