Tdi's and towbar downward pressure rating

[JamesH]

Hi All

A mate tells me that he has two mates, one with a Disco S1 and another with a Defender have bought caravans which they cannot legally tow because Land Rover made a big boo boo on the licencing regs. The vehicles can take a downward pressure of well over 150kg but that is all they a limited to by law.

Has anyone heard of this problem? Is there a way around it?

I'm told the problem was solved with the introduction of the TD5

thanks for any advice

[Reads90]

If that is the case i have driven my 300 Tdi 90 ilegally all the 35,000 k's around Australia while towing the trailer
Oh well :)

[harlie]

Hi
Some of the D1 tow bars (I think ones that came from ARB ) are plated at only 120kgs. Vehicle itself was rated at 150kg.

TD5 was lifted to 250kg
HOWEVER – there is fine print if you don’t have Self Leveling Air Suspension (SLS):- it’s something along the lines of as weight in the back of the car goes up, tow bar weight goes down. (empty car = 250kg tow bar weight). Has to do with the longer overhang behind the rear axle and that SLS pressurizes to carry the extra weight.

In saying that – I towed a large boat (2700kg) with over 250kg ball weight for eight years with my old D1 and never had a problem, they are very solid under the rear - ironically more substantial than the D2.

[Reads90]

Land rovers were and are designed for towing . They have the 3500kg towing which more than almost any other car in its field
So would surpirse the hell out of me if they had a low tow ball weight.
don't know Aus laws . but in the Uk the defender and disco and range is the only car allowed to tow up to 4,000 kg

[harlie]

Mate you are correct.
The total mass of towed trailer is 4000kg for pre ABS equipped Disco1s and Defenders (3500 with ABS).
However under Australian National regulations the manufacturer must also provide a ‘Vertical Ball Weight’. It states that both the vehicle and tow bar manufacturers must specify the ball weight and the vehicle is limited to which ever is the lowest.
Now I have never owned a defender nor have I checked the specs on one - but a 1995 Discovery series 1 does have this problem. (150kg down weight.)

Most people don’t know about it - others like myself chose to ignore it because the vehicle towed so well. Not sure if the Insurance Company would in the case of a good prang.
:wasntme:

[Reads90]

Mate you are correct.
The total mass of towed trailer is 4000kg for pre ABS equipped Disco1s and Defenders (3500 with ABS).
However under Australian National regulations the manufacturer must also provide a ‘Vertical Ball Weight’. It states that both the vehicle and tow bar manufacturers must specify the ball weight and the vehicle is limited to which ever is the lowest.
Now I have never owned a defender nor have I checked the specs on one - but a 1995 Discovery series 1 does have this problem.

Most people don’t know about it - others like myself chose to ignore it because the vehicle towed so well. Not sure if the Insurance Company would in the case of a good prang.
:wasntme:

Cheers
All a bit new to me, in the uk it is just how much it can tow. Never ever thought about the ball weight

[incisor]

yep is a well known problem, one of my clients is a national caravan repairer and he is always having a go at me about it.... cheeky sod that he is...

[vnx205]

My towbar on a 1998 Cab Chassis defender has a plate that says "Static ball load 150kg", "Towing weight 4000kg with brakes".
The owner's manual says " Unbraked trailers - 750kg, Trailers with overrun brakes - 3500kg, 4wheel trailersith coupled brakes -4000kg, Nose weight - 75kg."
Surely "Nose weight" is not the same as "static ball load". So what does it mean?

[Reads90]

Got no idea what my NAS Spec rear step tow bar is . It has nothing on it , at all :angel: :angel:

[Utemad]

My HR towbar is 120kg/4000kg on my Disco 1 without ABS. I haven't looked at what the handbook says but why would you bother making a towbar that was at the limit for towing but 300kg below the limit on the ball weight?

[72pug]

....................What they said above.......:)


Went through this all in length 5 yrs ago, including re-plating towbar (HAYMAN REESE)....and getting letter from them,

But, it still comes down to the MANUFACTURER OF THE VEHICLE specs, in the handbook, which states 120kg, the letter from Landrover and HR states that, "bar is rated to 150kg OR whatever the vehicle manufacturer maximum is", Which D1 Handbook states as 120kg.(well ir did for those sold in 94-95 update spec)

Inc, your caravan repairer mate is right, even if he likes to rub it in eh;) .............the caravan industry has clamped down a lot in recent years, but there are still some who break the rules and sell grossly heavy vans to people with under-capable vehicles..(NOT LR of course)

My father wanted a particular van a couple of years back.....two dealers of same van ......when looking at prices comparison...1st said hey , no worries do'nt worry about the legality of insurance , 2ND, said, Sorry, have to choose another van.

Shame, as we all know you could Safely tow 150kg or a little more.

Cheers,

Wayne.

[scrambler]

I read a letter to the editor of a 4wd magazine a few years back - some overpaid retiree bought himself a fancy German Soft-roader and towed a large van far enough to almost rip the towbar out of the back. Hayman-reese replaced the bar and repaired the car for nothing, despite the downforce being about double what was plated, but the **** wanted the car replaced. The Editors told him what they thought of him!

Still, I don't understand why the downforce is so (relatively) low on Land Rovers when the in-car load capacity is close to a ton. Can anyone explain why?

[BigJon]

Surely it is the responsibility of the purchaser to make sure their tow vehicle is capable of pulling the van they choose. Putting the onus on the seller of the van sounds a lot like dodging resposibility to me. Heading down the path of the "it can't be my fault so I better sue someone else" mentality.

BTW, I don't sell caravans :D but I am concerned about the "not my fault" society that seems to be breeding unchecked in Australia :mad: .

[BigJon]

I read a letter to the editor of a 4wd magazine a few years back - some overpaid retiree bought himself a fancy German Soft-roader and towed a large van far enough to almost rip the towbar out of the back. Hayman-reese replaced the bar and repaired the car for nothing, despite the downforce being about double what was plated, but the **** wanted the car replaced. The Editors told him what they thought of him!



I think in this case the owner of the car had also fitted an extended (vertically) draw bar because the van was an off road model. In regards to the D3, LR are strict on what towbar extensions are allowed (pretty much none!).

[72pug]

..................sorry folks, forgot to mention above,

When i spoke to Landrover Australia directly and asked your question 'Big John', why such a low Downforce load?, they basically said that back then, during the time they were originally having the model complianced, LR had effectively under-estimated the Ball -load, as in the UK most vans etc are heaps lighter in that area, even if they have a similar Gross weight.

They went on to say that they could not do anything about it Retrospectively, even though Mitsubishi Australia were at that time attempting do do just that with their Pajero's of similar age.

Anyway, i reckon that you can still have a heap of choice within that limit as to what you can tow, and it is the responsibility of the "owner", to check everything is cosher and within those limits before they head out......at least you've got one known starting point that's not vague, and you're well and truly covered.

Happy travels,

Wayne.:)

[JamesH]

Hi Guys thanks for the comments.

As many of you had noted the issue is not what the vehicle can safely tow. It is about what it can legally tow. The van salespeople said in the case of a prang you were towing the caravan illegally (if it is over 150 ball weight) and you are up for all that entails.

LR have basically admitted it was a giant paperwork stuff up back when the Tdis came out. Of course they can handle the weight.

One guy says his little Mazda farm ute can legally tow his new van (it is only the smallest possible vans that are under 150kg, the vans in both cases are not big ones btw) but he would never dream of ripping the guts out of the thing by actually doing it.

I was hoping you guys might have heard of getting some engineers certificate thingy and lodging it with the licencing dept or something like that as a work around but that is not what I'm hearing from you.

Meanwhile two owners have their beloved Landies up for sale and have to do their round trip in a Prado or something equally evil.

[LandyAndy]

Disco2 is 3500kg max and 250kg ball load.The 130 is the heavyweight in the towing stakes isnt it,or is it what Ive been lead to belive???
Andrew

[scrambler]

There can be interesting loopholes. Mitsubishi Delicas can have towing capacities of about 2000kg depending on the installation and the confidence of the assessor, because there is no standard set by the manufacturer (since the model never came here.) BUT the almost-identical Starwagon has a 1000kg limit, because that's what Mitsubishi complianced it with.

Back on REAL towing vehicles, I wonder what amount of modifications would be required to allow the tow rating to be re-assessed on a case-by-case basis? For example, would new springs and a custom towbar be enough?