Cones or Clamps?

[Diff]

I did a little test on the weekend and took the sway bars of the D1 and headed out to mount Mee. It didn't feel too bad to drive but tail end charlie said it looked like a saggy ass going aroung the corners.

Anyway great flex about 100mm more than the spring length. After having the rears fall out 3 times enough was enough so play was stopped.

Now for the solution. Clamps or cones?

I want to go cones if some one can give me a plan on making some. I was thinking of using 4 50mm plates in a taper from the spring inner diameter reducing to half that size in 150mm.

Suggestions please. I want to head back out next Sunday and have another go.

[walker]

Clamps are the way to go.

Cones are noisy and can give you some scary moments if they dislocate suddenly on a side slope.


(I have cones at the moment but plan to clamp the springs down)

[dmdigital]

Walker what are you planning for clamps? I was looking at Expedition-Exchange's site today as they do a system. Was thinking I could probably get something done the same for the Defender.

[Diff]

Is that noisy compared to the rest of the noise from the mudders clawing away or the rocks bouncing and thuddings underneith ,Oh and the TDI rmp's that there normally is? If I clamp won't I loose the 100mm drop I just gained?

[byron]

I did a little test on the weekend and took the sway bars of the D1 and headed out It didn't feel too bad to drive but tail end charlie said it looked like a saggy ass going aroung the corners.

Anyway great flex about 100mm more than the spring length. After having the rears fall out 3 times enough was enough so play was stopped.

.

I read an article in one of the Pommie Land Rover mags wherein one of their "old -style" tech gurus took out his anti sway bars and "swore " he got what felt like 100mm more travel ......one of the other guys on the mag did some simple measurements one one of those crawl-up ramps [LHS of car on ramp, other side wheels off] and the real difference was something like 3/4"[20mm approx].......

the point was that it only FEELS like you've got more- but it's just leaning over more at speed].......but you keep getting what you had happen, happening!.......

Anti-sway bars really only offer initial resistance to lean/sway/wheel movement initially - they DON'T actually prevent much subsequent/ultimate movement of the wheel travel (up and down)......

Maybe have a re-think on how to get more travel........prolly need to go for a un-cheap kit!

Oh, and BTW.....you'll prolly also find it illegal [both for insurance AND roadworthy-ness] to disconnect your anti-sway bars if they were fitted originally.

[Gidget]

This is always a contentious issue....;)
I have run a home made dislocating system in my old Defender for 2.5 years & it worked well .... restricting it to an extra 60mm drop kept it more stable..... If you let it drop as far as 100mm (& it will do, if you modify it right, new trailing arms & bushes etc) it does become unstable... Lengthen the bump stops by 2" makes it work like it should, giving a great combo of up & down travel.
I had to make offset trailing arms & laminate them to get mine working right, but the new type angle bushes that are out now will most likely fix this problem....:) although if you play hard laminated arms are a great idea..
Another thing to remember is the ball joint for the a-frame on top of the diff. Make sure it is in good nick or even better get a new Heavy-duty one that is adjustable....

This system can be noisy, but if you do your homework properly it should rarely dislocate suddenly.

I kept my sway bars connected & made quick release connections, allowing me to have full articulation when I wanted & better road handling when I needed it :D:D

I have since sold the ol' girl but I can drag up some pics no doubt if you would like...

I have just recently brought a D1 & am going to set up a dislocating system in it (wish I would have pulled it out of the defender now :mad:)
Time is scarce for me these days, so I was thinking of just buying the Long Travel suspension kit & long travel shocks from (Les Richmond automotive)


Anyway... that is my 2 cents worth (fitting flame suit now, as the anti dislocating system supporters get passionate about this) :D:D:D:D

[Gidget]

Anti-sway bars really only offer initial resistance to lean/sway/wheel movement initially - they DON'T actually prevent much subsequent/ultimate movement of the wheel travel (up and down)......


Oh, and BTW.....you'll prolly also find it illegal [both for insurance AND roadworthy-ness] to disconnect your anti-sway bars if they were fitted originally.

having quick disconnects isn't illegal (in Qld anyway) as long as they do not alter or change the performance when they are connected......
& you have to remember to reconnect them :p

Our insurance company (Racq) had no issues as long is it retained on road.... A couple of old seat belt straps for limiting straps & all was good....

[Diff]

Gidget, thanks what you had sounds like the set up I need / or want. Yes I did know not having the sway bars connected would be an issue on road but My vehicle was still the most road worthy in the forest on the weekend I am sure.

Gidget, If you can find som photos or a bit of direction I would be most interested. Id it hadn't been for the spring dropping out I would have made it up the track. Only the two zuks made it up but they were very impressed with the Disco wheel travel.

[waynep]

I have a design for swayber quick disconnects for a D1 if anyone wants it - off the US Discoweb site. I haven't made them yet.

[Diff]

That would be great!!:)

[byron]

having quick disconnects isn't illegal (in Qld anyway) as long as they do not alter or change the performance when they are connected......
& you have to remember to reconnect them :p

Our insurance company (Racq) had no issues as long is it retained on road.... A couple of old seat belt straps for limiting straps & all was good....

I didn't mean quick disconnection kits:wasntme: ........they've gotta be ok and legal if they're connected whilst "on road" ......I was referring to taking them [sway bars] off and throwing them out altogether.;)

[PhilipA]

Mt understanding of the law re swaybars is that if a model was offered without the feature anywhere in the world, then it is OK. For my 92 Range Rover there was (at least) a model sold in the USA without sway bars. "The Hunter" . Also in UK they had a commercial model, but I have not been able to determine whether they had sway bars or not.
I would think that there were also Disco 1 models without sway bars, even after they became standard in Australia.
In effect Australian cars were "optioned up" with sway bars.

That is why you can convert a Classic with air bags to springs legally. And why you need an engineers report for a 38A, as no model came with springs. Its also why there are no OZ kits for 38A as it would cost too much for type approval for the vendor and no one would buy them without type approval if they had to get an Engineers report. ( told to me by Graeme Cooper)
Regards Philip A

[waynep]

That would be great!!:)

Take a look here - real simple design :

BTW If anyone has already done this here if they could indicate where they got the bits from that would be great.

http://discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php't=13152&highlight=sway

[Tusker]

Is that noisy compared to the rest of the noise from the mudders clawing away or the rocks bouncing and thuddings underneith ,Oh and the TDI rmp's that there normally is? If I clamp won't I loose the 100mm drop I just gained?

Yes. Anyone nearby who doesn't know will be yelling broken diff, broken axle, broken something...

Sounds as though you've got a non-standard setup. The springs shouldn't pop out 3 times in one day. You may alrerady have longer shocks.

Regards
Max P

[Diff]

No pretty standard compared to most.
2' raised king spring and cross country foam filled shocks which were about 20mm longer than the originals, but still their replacement for RR/Disco and 245/75/16 maxxis mudders and a camel cut that wasn't really enough.

I was surprised that they cam out with only the way bar removed. Did the older range rover without sway bary and early discos have the springs clamped in from standard?

[rick130]

No pretty standard compared to most.
2' raised king spring <snip>

there's your culprit. Kings springs are a much heavier rate than standard, so are actually a shorter spring at free length or unloaded height vs the OE spring.

[rick130]

<snip>

Anti-sway bars really only offer initial resistance to lean/sway/wheel movement initially - they DON'T actually prevent much subsequent/ultimate movement of the wheel travel (up and down)......

<snip>

sorry, but that's totally incorrect. An anti-roll bar is a transverse torsion bar, the more you twist, the harder they are to twist, so the more one wheel moves in relation to it's opposite (or the more the body rolls) the more it resists that motion.
On the other hand, a shock absorber with a lot of low speed bump, rebound or both will initially resist movement then bleed down and allow full suspension movement.

[Diff]

SO now I will have to start another thread as to what springs to install. The Kings are nearing 2 years old and have sunk about 1' and a definately not as firm as the were.

The springs will have to be able to take the touring weight of the family. I was thinking of getting polly bags as well as the camper traile dropped the **** a bit.

[Gidget]

I didn't mean quick disconnection kits:wasntme: ........they've gotta be ok and legal if they're connected whilst "on road" ......I was referring to taking them [sway bars] off and throwing them out altogether.;)

Sorry I wasn't implying that,, I was just trying to suggest it as an option instead of removal.......

The 93 4 door V8 disco we ju7st brought has all the brackets where they belong... but are not there ;);)
Was there models that came here with out them fitted ????

I will look for the pics of my set up tonight & post them up when I find them :cool:

[Frenchie]

My '92 Disco didn't have sway bars. :cool:

[dungarover]

I prefer retained springs. I just used hose clamps to but my Rangie is no ramp queen and has enouigh travel with the right spring/shock combo (Koni shocks, 180lb LRA front springs, 220lb LRA rears).

I also hate the noise cones make when they doslocate and they make the vehicle unstable in certain conditions.

All the spring travel in the world don't mean dick if the wheel that is at full drop has no weight on it which is the case when you have no sprung weight (ie-when they dislocate). You still need Diff locks to push the vehicle through :angel:

A good spring/shock combo will get you a long way. Wheel travel is important, but there is a limit.

Trav

[spudboy]

What about this:
http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-Spring.asp?MID=57

It's a smaller spring within your main spring than only extends when the normal springs run out of extension. Keeps the downforce on the axle even at full (dislocated) suspension.

Simple idea - I like it, but no feedback on how it works in real life.

Regards
David

[dungarover]

Seen that before, not a bad idea.

Hate to think what the price would be :eek: :eek:

Trav

[spudboy]

Not too bad I seem to remember. GBP139 rings a bell, which is around AU$250.

You could make a set, but at that price all the hard work has been done for you.

[natanchris]

I made up some disconnects for my D1. Basically you cut the short link to the swaybar (with the rubber bushes on one end and the ball joint on the other). Cut it right at the end up against the bit that takes the rubber bushes. You're left with two halves, one with a 1" stalk on it. Then get a short piece of heavy wall tube and weld to the end that takes the rubber bushes. Fit the two halves together, drill and pin with a "hitch pin" I think they're called. (couplea $ from a trailer place). This setup allows whole swaybar to be disconnected, and has not had any probs strength wise when connected....Cheers Chris.

[dungarover]

On my 93 Rangie, I left the swaybars on b ut bent the crap out of the rear when I was at Tookeron one day (now closed, bloody shame it was a good park) and removed them altogether.

Vehicle floats a bit more, but who cares. off-road is where old Rangies belong :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Trav

[Bush65]

1. Retained springs give better stability on cross slopes.

2. The springs will stretch to some degree (depending on the spring rate) when the wheel droops past the point when an unretained spring would dislocate (if the shockie stroke is enough).

3. Generally the front won't articulate as much as the rear - termed unbalanced. Retained rear springs will help the front to articulate more. Whereas the extra droop at the rear with dislocated springs will reduce the articulation at the front, which will cause the body to lean over further (not good if it leans to the downhill side on cross slopes).

IMHO retained springs are best for our conditions. But are not necessary if the shockie stroke does not permit articulation past the free length of the springs.

[Diff]

I will pick up some clamps and have another go on the weekend. I have already started to look at lew springs for the rear with poly bags. Any clues as to what is best?

Thanks for all the replies it has been very interesting.

[rick130]

I will pick up some clamps and have another go on the weekend. I have already started to look at lew springs for the rear with poly bags. Any clues as to what is best?

Thanks for all the replies it has been very interesting.

If you don't know what you need rate and length wise, best stump up the $$ to someone like Andrew at Les Richmond Automotive in Bayswater. Vic.
You tell Andrew what you are going to do and how the vehicle is to be loaded, he'll get you to measure bump stop clearance on a level floor and he'll recommend springs to suit. That way you get the most suitable setup for your needs.

[mark2]

Its very likely that you either have:
a) shocks which are a fair bit longer than std (in which case I'd be checking that they arent bottoming out on full compression if the top mount hasnt been raised) or/

b) springs which are a fair bit shorter than standard.

I had a set of king springs in the rear of my 110 - they are short and due to the high spring rate its hard to achieve full spring compression (unless heavily loaded) and hence this restricts wheel travel.

I would suggest a lighter, longer spring - you'' probably get more wheel travel due to extra up travel and they wont fall out with standard or slightly longer shocks. I use rangie springs on the rear of my 110 with a poly adaptor to suit the smaller diameter - there is a much bigger range of springs available in RR/Disco sizes.

When you cross axle it - is the side in compression touching the bump stops? If not, your spring rates are heavier than ideal for maximum articulation. (this test may not be valid if carrying heavy loads is a priority)

[walker]

First of all, don't go looking for Les Richmond in Bayswater, as they are in Thomastown. :o


I gues it all comes down to one question, do you want big flex for show or to get you further up a track?

If for show, then allow springs to dislocate and remove your shocks altogether.:twisted:


If you want to get further up a track then this is what I would do:

1. Lengthen your shock mounts (Les Richmond have a good kit for this) because it is pointless putting in longer springs if the shocks are what is limiting the downtravel, but you cant put in longer shocks without modifying the shock mounts

2. Use nice long soft springs. If it's just a weekend tuff truck then soft springs are fine. If you also carry loads then use helper airbags in the rear.
Softer spring will be longer while still giving you the same lift and so will drop further.

3. Retain the springs

4. (more important than any of the above) Install lockers!;)

[Diff]

yes lockers are on the way and I am clamping the springs tonight. I want the impossible. A daily drive, long range tourer and track ability to put all the other non rover guys to shame (already does but need more:twisted: )

[MacMan]

First of all, don't go looking for Les Richmond in Bayswater, as they are in Thomastown.

I wouldn't recommend looking at Les Richmond ANYWHERE unless you are prepared to spend. Nothing against Andrew or his advice (always done the right thing by me) but he has one hell of a candy shop. It would be very easy to get carried away there - the positive is that it's all good gear and you'd end up with a fine setup.

[walker]

I do agree with that, the stuff is expensive but buying some of the kits (like the body lift etc) makes it a lot easier to get it engineered if you are going that way.

[BigJon]

yes lockers are on the way and I am clamping the springs tonight. I want the impossible. A daily drive, long range tourer and track ability to put all the other non rover guys to shame (already does but need more:twisted: )

Put long travel light springs in the rear, then fit a centrally mounted air bag for load carrying capacity (where the Range Rover boge leveller was fitted). Then you can have the best of both worlds. This is a plan for my Rangie.

[Slunnie]

3. Generally the front won't articulate as much as the rear - termed unbalanced. Retained rear springs will help the front to articulate more. Whereas the extra droop at the rear with dislocated springs will reduce the articulation at the front, which will cause the body to lean over further (not good if it leans to the downhill side on cross slopes).
This is a key thing that I have found. With the rear suspension on my ute set to dislocate the rear suspension didn't need to be lifted much at all before the spring unseated (not a lot of load on the rear). When the spring was retained, then the wheel could be lifted heaps and the front suspension would then start to flex also. If the rear is not retained, the front suspension won't be forced to flex.

In the pic, the IIa is at 100" wheelbase, rear coiled, front sprung over. Unretained the rear would pretty much sit on the jack, with the jack not far off it lowest setting. When I strapped the axle which will do less than retaining the suspension flexed as you see in the picture.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/110.jpg

[dmdigital]

Has anyone tried these at all??

http://www.x-eng.co.uk/Images/Album/X-Flex%20Suspension/X-Spring/slides/OffRoadExpanded.jpg

X-Spring (http://www.x-eng.co.uk/X-Spring.asp?MID=57) from X-Eng (UK).

Judging by the mud on the vehicle in the pic and the clean spring, they must have special mud resistance too ;)

Noticed them in the latest edition of LRE.

If I remember isn't someone on this forum an X-Eng agent in Australia??

[Diff]

I tested the clamped springs on the weekend and they worked well. Without the clamp the spring would dislocate by about 100mm. The disc would hit the floor of the garage. With the clamps on the disc would still hit the floor so I will assume no travel was lossed and it would continue to drop with the added weight of the rim and tyre.

I took it back to the same track and made it up (on the 3rd approach) So I am very happy

I also noticed that without the clamp the tyres would rub the inside of the wheel well.

Thank you all for the voice of experience.