Series IIA Pulling Power

[HarlingtonStraker]

Evening all,

and hi to everyone.

Just a question relating my 1969 Series IIA Ex Military 109 with original motor.

The weekend before last which was a hot one in the high 30's to 40's I did a favour for a friend who needed his vehicle , a civilian IIA trayback , towed to his new abode about 38 kilometres east of Mundaring.

This involved attaching a solid steel car trailer to my Landy and winching the other landy on to the back of it. the other landy had another landys tub attaced to the top or the trayback. This tub was full of parts and bits and pieces including a landrover engine.

To the front of this trailer was hoisted a Diesel 2.25 engine and another large diesel engine the type that used to power the London Cabs.

To this car trailer of 1 and 1/2 landys,3 engines and assorted parts, another 11 landrover wheels with tyres were fitted into all of the gaps, one of them being mounted on my bonnet when space ran out.

Plus the cab of my landy had some boxes of personal effects and clothes.

This load was then towed some distance with 3 adults in the front to Midland.

This is where the Great Eastern Hwy starts it's climb up Greenmount Hill.

This is a hill that has claimed many a old car with its relentless climb.

This was the start of a very long day which was already shaping up to be a long one without a hill being in the way.

Getting steeper and steeper my landy was now in first gear climbing climbing until the engine temperature or some problem was causing the engine to starve of fuel. The car came to a shuddering halt.

And to cut a long story short my landy battled up the hill in crawling low range 4wd first and second low range, puctuated by many stops as the engine lost power and stalled, waiting to cool down , and then off again in low range 4wd.

As we were literally climbing the Darling Ranges there were many hills to climb punctuated by smaller inclines on a very long trek to the township of Wundowie.

I was given many theories as to the problem from faulty fuel pump, engine overheating causing fuel to vaporise or just plain overloaded were thrown around.

A very long day indeed Starting at 7:30 in the morning to get the trailer to leaving his place at around 12 once everything was loaded to me getting home again at 1:30 am a long day indeed.

So my question to the forum was my poor little beast overloaded with its original 2.25 1969 engine.

My friends are divided on this with most saying yes and some saying no, a landy can handle anything.

With some saying I did a very dangerous thing indeed.

But without experience in these things I was quite scared to be up that hill.
But I also knew that with all that cargo and no way to turn around, the only way was forward and up.

opinion is diveded on the approximate weight as well what do you think?
once describing the contents people are quoting 4.5 to 5.5 tonnes.
The trailer alone was bl**dy heavy.

My Landy is driving ok after the trip with no ill effects, and I am not annoyed at my friend , although he was a bit worried after that sort of day.

definately an experience I will not forget.

what do you guys think how much can a IIa handle ?

HS.

[JDNSW]

You were almost certainly overloaded - maximum trailer mass for Series Landrovers is 3.5T, and that assumes you have independently operated brakes, not over ride brakes (and ADRs require them to operate on all wheels of the trialer). In addition you need a non standard towbar and connection, although the NATO hook I think is approved for this load.

However, this does not explain the engine dying - there is no reason why the engine would not continue to pull indefinitely at full throttle, even at low road speeds and high temperatures, although this may not be very good treatment for it. The problem is almost certainly simply that the vehicle is at least 35 years old, maybe as much as 45, and some parts are not functioning as well as they did when new. My guess is that the engine was running hot because of a less than perfect radiator, possibly combined with a slipping fan belt (the radiator shroud is still in place I hope?), and the resulting above normal under bonnet temperature was resulting in vapour lock in the suction side of the fuel pump, probably helped by a partly blocked screen on the fuel pickup in the tank and possibly by slight air leaks in the suction line or not quite perfect valves in the pump. You possibly could have prevented or fixed the problem by simply removing the bonnet, thus improving the airflow and reducing the temperature around the fuel pump and suction line.

John

[Turtle61]

I am with John on the vapour lock. Reading good old Len Beadel's accounts of his travels the high engine temps combined with 40deg+ outside would cause vapour locks in the fuel lines (that was Len's SI).

I am thinking the same thing happened to your Landy: working hard, running hot, high ambient temps, fuel in the rubber hoses in the engine bay would reach high enough temps to vapourise quicky causing 'gaps' in the fuel delivery.

I can't remember what the carby set up is on the SIIA, but given high enough angles the float could have been out adding to the fuel starvation issue. I can be corrected on this issue as my last experience with a carby on a SII was seeing it removed with the engine still attached to make space for the 2.3 LR diesel... :cool:

And yeah, you were probably legally overloaded...

[JDNSW]

I am with John on the vapour lock. Reading good old Len Beadel's accounts of his travels the high engine temps combined with 40deg+ outside would cause vapour locks in the fuel lines (that was Len's SI).

1. I am thinking the same thing happened to your Landy: working hard, running hot, high ambient temps, fuel in the rubber hoses in the engine bay would reach high enough temps to vapourise quicky causing 'gaps' in the fuel delivery.

2. I can't remember what the carby set up is on the SIIA, but given high enough angles the float could have been out adding to the fuel starvation issue. I can be corrected on this issue as my last experience with a carby on a SII was seeing it removed with the engine still attached to make space for the 2.3 LR diesel... :cool:

And yeah, you were probably legally overloaded...

1. The Series 1 was more prone to vapour lock, as the position of the pump high on the firewall (on the exhaust pipe side!) compared to low on the side of the engine opposite side to the exhaust means not only more heat in the S1, but probably more importantly, a higher lift on the suction side.

2. If the S2a has the original carburetter (either Solex or Zenith) the float setup is designed to operate at offroad angles and it is very unlikely that the float could be adding to the problem. The symptoms are classic vapour lock.

John

[djam1]

4 Cylinder Land Rovers of the 2 /2A /3 were one of the most abusable engines ever built. These things can be overheated seized allowed to cool down and continue the journey. Yes it was overloaded but I have seen a 2A tow 12 tonnes over a short distance without issue (no stopping in a hurry). I would say that it had vapor lock if you want to do it again make sure the cooling system is in order and fit an electric fuel pump near the tank the fuel under pressure to the manual pump will help to eliminate vapor lock.

[Turtle61]

OK. I stand corrected about the carby - as I said, diesel is my thing :D

BTW my old SI (1957) had an electric fuel pump on the bulkhead near the steering column nowhere near the exhaust.. but it was high up and often the points would stick requiring a gentle tap to get it going... oh well....

[JDNSW]

.........

BTW my old SI (1957) had an electric fuel pump on the bulkhead near the steering column nowhere near the exhaust.. but it was high up and often the points would stick requiring a gentle tap to get it going... oh well....

I remember it being on the other side - but that was over forty years ago, and I have just found a picture, and you're right! It is on the right side, where a little thought would have made it obvious it should be - after all both the carburetter and the fuel tank are on that side. But apart from the problems with the pump - and I remember them well enough - the extra suction height as well as the fact that hot air rises means that vapour lock is more likely on the S1. On the other hand, it will clear quicker, as the pump keeps pumping after the engine is off.

John

[DarrenR]

I think everyone's comment of vapour lock is spot on and the 2.25 petrol really will take some harsh punishment, still one of my favourite engines.

Greenmount Hill...
I remember being 18 and still being quite a bit stupid, I had my SWB Series 3 2.25 petrol coming down that hill with a mate of mine in the passenger seat, we managed to wind it to the end of the speedo, no overdrive or tacho (probably a good thing) :eek:

Best regards
DarrenR

[isuzurover]

As others have said - illegal and dangerous - don't do it again.

But I agree that it was probably vapour lock and probably no harm was done.

Vapour lock was one of the reasons I converted to a diesel. Plenty of times on hot days driving in low range I had to steal some ice from the esky to get the engine running properly again...

[LandyAndy]

Tough old girl!!!!!!!
You did your best to kill her but she won!!!!!
Go the old Landys!!!
Sounds like you did 3 trips in one.
Andrew

[HarlingtonStraker]

thanks for all the replys guys / gals.

Vapour lock does seem to be the issue here, although some have said that maybe the carby was dirty and blocking up a bit under full throttle.

I must say this forum is a valuable resource of advice and information.
thanks again.

My carby is not standard. it is a webber replacement. How do these go on the inclines ?

My fuel pump is electric, but I now have an original mechanical one which I shall fit this weekend, I think I will leave the electric one there as a backup.

In reply to one question, No I do not seem to have a radiator shroud fitted.

This has bothered me since I got the Landy but have not found one yet.

Will I need a special one with the eight bladed military fan ?

I have since found and fitted an expansion bottle to the radiator, prior to the hill journey.

I must say , despite the adventures, there are others, I have enjoyed every greasy dirty minute of classic Landrover ownership, so far.

Now anybody got any hints to locate that shroud?

cheers to all

HS

Yes I must Agree, they are pretty tough Andy.

[JDNSW]

thanks for all the replys guys / gals.

1. Vapour lock does seem to be the issue here, although some have said that maybe the carby was dirty and blocking up a bit under full throttle.

2. I must say this forum is a valuable resource of advice and information.
thanks again.

3. My carby is not standard. it is a webber replacement. How do these go on the inclines ?

4. My fuel pump is electric, but I now have an original mechanical one which I shall fit this weekend, I think I will leave the electric one there as a backup.

5. Will I need a special one with the eight bladed military fan ?

6. I have since found and fitted an expansion bottle to the radiator, prior to the hill journey.

.

1. If it was dirt in the carbouretter, it should show up as soon as you use full throttle, not gradually fade out, although a partial blockage could lead to a weaker mixture and running hot. Not alikely problem, but cleaning it won't hurt!

2. Thanks on behalf of all of us.

3. Unless I am mistaken this carburetter was fitted to late S3, and they would not have fitted one that was fussy about slopes - and in any case it is very unlikely that any modern carburetter would worry about any hill on a public road.

4. The electric pump may or may not be an issue, depending on what model it is and how it was installed. The original pump is usually quite trouble free (although they are not keen on pumping dirt) - I have replaced the diaphragm in mine once in about fifteen years, and this is only the second one I have ever had to fit.

5. The missing shroud is almost certainly part of the problem! It is almost impossible to get a full shroud on with the military fan installed, and all the ones I have seen have the bottom of the shroud cut away. Otherwise it is the standard one. Should be able to get one from anyone wrecking a Series 2/2a/3 Landrover, but the late S3 had a plastic one, and I am not sure it is fully interchangeable. I would not even try to get one new. I have a spare, but am a bit far away - maybe someone on here a bit closer has a spare one.

6. All the expansion bottle does is save the coolant that expands when hot from being lost. Should not make any difference to the cooling except that it makes it less likely to run short on coolant.

[DarrenR]

thanks for all the replys guys / gals.

My carby is not standard. it is a webber replacement. How do these go on the inclines ?

My fuel pump is electric, but I now have an original mechanical one which I shall fit this weekend, I think I will leave the electric one there as a backup.

In reply to one question, No I do not seem to have a radiator shroud fitted.

This has bothered me since I got the Landy but have not found one yet.

Will I need a special one with the eight bladed military fan ?

Now anybody got any hints to locate that shroud?

cheers to all

HS

Yes I must Agree, they are pretty tough Andy.

I had a single throat weber on my 2.25 and I used to do a lot of rock climbing with it, just outside of midland, used to perform great.

Some other items I found made small improvements to the little 2.25 (I used to say 2 1/4 lt many years ago).

Remove the great hunk of steel fan blade because it does suck off a couple of hp and fit a four bladed plastic one (from memory this was of an early datsun 180B, just re-drill the mounting holes.

I removed the mechanical pump altogether and replaced it with an aftermarket electric one near the tank. I'd also replace rubber fuel hose with some good quality hose thats insulated.

Fitted an aftermarket “electronic ignition” (well basically a capacitor discharge).

Extractors and a 2" stainless exhaust (ok, no need to get carried away with stainless, but it did sound good).

Although it was also a rebuilt motor, it did run dam well and I think it would have pulled an overdrive quite well (keep in mind it was a SWB ).

Was always my favorite Landie I owned, dam I want it back, I'm sure it's still alive, I sold it to a guy down Safety Bay/Rockingham, bright yellow, SWB Series 3, twin alloy tanks.... *sign*

Fan shroud, hunt round wreckers or tips out in the bush, Marble Bar tip many years ago was a gold mine for Land Rover parts

Best regards
DarrenR

[isuzurover]

IME the webber is MORE prone to vapour lock than othere carbies.

[JDNSW]

IME the webber is MORE prone to vapour lock than othere carbies.

Interesting! vapour lock usually occurs on the suction side of the pump (hence the suggestion of putting an electric pump at the tank), and so should not matter what carburetter you have. However, actual boiling of the fuel in the bowl is likely to be very dependent on the type of carburetter, and a secondary effect could be if the mixture is weaker (and the Weber is supposed to give a little better economy = weaker mixture) it will lead to hotter running which will encourage vapour lock.

John

[djam1]

Check the fuel bowl venting on the Weber I recall a few years ago using a 34ADM Weber on a Nissan Patrol with the same issue. Due to the Emission laws the bowl cant be vented to the atmosphere once I vented it the problem went away. I think that the fuel was boiling in the bowl or something like that but the venting of the bowl solved the problem.

Duane