Series stages

[shorty943]

Ok, I'm confused, again.:(
Could someone please explain what the stage 1\2\3 is all about in the S3 models?

Shorty.

[Dante]

Ok, I'm confused, again.:(
Could someone please explain what the stage 1\2\3 is all about in the S3 models?

Shorty.

Shorty,
this is from the wikipedia about the SIII (click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Defender#Series_III))

"From 1979, increased investment by the British Government brought numerous improvements. From that year the more powerful 3.5-litre V8 petrol engine as used in the Range Rover, albeit a detuned version (91 horsepower), was used in the Stage 1 V8 109. This was the first stage in the development of what was to become the 110. It used a variant of the Range Rover engine and drive train making it the only Series III vehicle to have permanent four wheel drive."

Don't think there is a Stage2/3,etc

Here (http://www.stage1v8.org.uk/tech/Technical_Pages.html) some technical info about it

[numpty]

Ok, I'm confused, again.:(
Could someone please explain what the stage 1\2\3 is all about in the S3 models?

Shorty.

Only Stage 1 Shorty. (there was a Stage 2, but only in the Old Dart I think) It was the first of the interims before the advent of the 110.( Stage 3 of update) Consists of almost standard Series 3 with Range Rover running gear. ie V8 (or later the Isuzu 3.9 diesel) constant 4wd with centre diff lock, LT95, and 3.54 diffs, but complete with the old leaf springs and drum brakes. First appeared in 1980. Other markets still got the old Series 3, but we only got the Stage 1 from then I believe.

[UncleHo]

G'day Shorty943 :)


The Series 2,2a,3 vehicles were all the same with selectable 4xwheel drive the V8 Series 3 was the first Landrover to use the Range Rover Constant 4x4 drive system,

it being the Rangie V8 and LT95 g/box transfer unit fitted in the Leaf sprung Chassis, this was the first stage in the development of the coil sprung vehicles hence Stage 1 the Stage 2 was the prototype Coil sprung vehicle with still the Series 3 Bodywork, Stage 3 was the 110:D

cheers

[BigJon]

and don't forget the bodywork changes too...like the RR style bonnet and the grill moving further forward :D

?? bonnet??

[Phoenix]

Dunno about RR style, but it was longer to accomodate the moved foward grille to fit the engine, and I think it had the lip that we are now famiar with on the 110 and defender.

[UncleHo]

G'day Phoenix :)

The bonnet with the "Lip" was also available on the Series 2,2a ,3 and is/was known as the "Deluxe" bonnet;) it was mainly seen on the Station Wagons in Australia, but was an extra cost option, same as "Deluxe" seats and door trims :D

cheers

[shorty943]

Thanks to all for the clarification. Basically the S3, became the stage 1, became the Deefer?
Looks like I might have to set stage for my S3. About stage 0.5 ish.:p
A little cash coming soon, have been considering an upgrade to a diesel engine, and a 5 speed box from a Toylux. About 90 HP will actually let me get up hills at normal road speed. And I might even be able to tow my caravan, sheesh, that will be a turn up.

Shorty.

PS. There is that "deluxe" word again. In a Landy forum?

[scrambler]

"Stage 1" is an unofficial name, as stage 1 of the Land Rover re-invigoration which saw the Defender/110 and eventually all the newer models. The Factory name is "Series III V8." As mentioned it has the Carb 3.5 V8 out of the Classic Rangie of the 1970's. Essentially the same running gear as the 70's Rangies and then the County's (though theres an extra joint between motor and gearbox).

The bonnet is identical in appearance to the Deefer one. I think NM's "RR" comment comes from the raised side rails - the previous bonnets (including the Deluxe) had a convex profile while the Stage 1 and on are concave (until the 2007 model, of course)

I've never heard of a Stage 2 or Stage 3. The Stage 1 was a stop-gap cheap engineering way to get a torquey motor into the Series III ahead of the more extensive 110/County/Defender design being finalised.

The motors as originally fitted were detuned to 68HP. Of course, no-one has them in that state any more :D LR thought people would kill themselves if they could travel 120km/hr. There's a placard under the bonnet telling you to buy better tyres if you intend to travel 110km/hr :D

They will travel highway speeds comfortably and tow the rated 3.8 tonne. You can engage low range on the road and even with the highway gearing they have mountains of torque compared to a standard Series III.

Check the markets, Shorty and PM me - I'm doing crazy deals today since it DIDN'T pass its roadworthy (needs $600 of repairs).

[JDNSW]

Thanks to all for the clarification. Basically the S3, became the stage 1, became the Deefer?
Looks like I might have to set stage for my S3. About stage 0.5 ish.:p
Shorty.


Not quite - the Stage 1 did not replace the S3 - it WAS an S3, simply an extra model. In fact the V8 replaced the six, but required substantial changes to accommodate it. Some time later for Australia only, the Isuzu became an option in the Stage 1.
The S3 109 was replaced by the 110 in 1983 I think, and about eighteen months later the S3 88 was replaced by the 90. The 110 V8 replaced the Stage 1 and the 110 petrol or diesel four continued with the same engines (soon upgraded to 2.5l). The diesel was never sold in Australia, only the Isuzu being offered. No nineties were sold in Australia until the TD5 as far as I know.
The 120 was an Australia only additional model of the 110, I think it only came with the Isuzu, and was replaced by the 130. When the Discovery was introduced in 1989, the 110/90/130 were renamed as Defenders, at the same time as they got the 200Tdi engine to replace the 2.5 N/A and turbodiesel, neither of which were sold here. The V8 continued for a short while, but the petrol four was dropped. No Defenders were imported into Australia for about eighteen months or two years, apparently because of fears that they would steal sales from the Discovery.

John.

[George130]

BTW...I love that bonnet style. In the wet the water gathers on the centre of the bonnet until a little lake forms then streams up of the leading edge of the bonnet straight at the windscreen :D
and Bushie will know exactly what I mean as will Numpty, coz its something we've always commented on
:D:D
I love that feature! Lets me clean those extra bits of before I have to turn the wipers off. And yes it always seems to be perfectly aimed at the centre of the windscreen.

[shorty943]

"Stage 1" is an unofficial name, as stage 1 of the Land Rover re-invigoration which saw the Defender/110 and eventually all the newer models. The Factory name is "Series III V8." As mentioned it has the Carb 3.5 V8 out of the Classic Rangie of the 1970's. Essentially the same running gear as the 70's Rangies and then the County's (though theres an extra joint between motor and gearbox).

The bonnet is identical in appearance to the Deefer one. I think NM's "RR" comment comes from the raised side rails - the previous bonnets (including the Deluxe) had a convex profile while the Stage 1 and on are concave (until the 2007 model, of course)

I've never heard of a Stage 2 or Stage 3. The Stage 1 was a stop-gap cheap engineering way to get a torquey motor into the Series III ahead of the more extensive 110/County/Defender design being finalised.

The motors as originally fitted were detuned to 68HP. Of course, no-one has them in that state any more :D LR thought people would kill themselves if they could travel 120km/hr. There's a placard under the bonnet telling you to buy better tyres if you intend to travel 110km/hr :D

They will travel highway speeds comfortably and tow the rated 3.8 tonne. You can engage low range on the road and even with the highway gearing they have mountains of torque compared to a standard Series III.

Check the markets, Shorty and PM me - I'm doing crazy deals today since it DIDN'T pass its roadworthy (needs $600 of repairs).

Scrambler, detuned? 3.5 Ltr V8, 68HP, detuned? :o
They gave the poor bugger a lobotomy of some kind. The A12 series Datsun produced that in 1179 cc.
As for being able to travel at a staggering 60 or 70 MPH, I don't know mate.
We are talking about the Series models here. :(
I'll damn near reverse almost anything into a corner as fast as I can get it to go, I'll turn an aeroplane upside down at 200 Knots, but 100 KPH in a Series Landy? I've done that once, already. That's really fast man.:twisted:
Will check the market. Pensioner, so finances are a little tight until after tax time.:mad:
I must say your post got my quirky sides attention. I do miss the effortless power I had in the F100, with its ex-Bathurst engine. Even in a DETUNED STATE FOR GAS that beast gave out 535 HP and could spin its rear wheels up in top at 140 KPH.:angel:
Hm, 3.5 Ltr, all alloy, retuned, yep. That sounds like a better plan than a diesel. 6,000 RPM over idle should be exciting.:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Shorty.

[JDNSW]

Scrambler, detuned? 3.5 Ltr V8, 68HP, detuned? :o
..........

68HP is wrong - figure is 91HP, detuned by a restrictor plate below each carburetter - mostly removed by now! 68 would be less than the 2.25 petrol and only about the same as the diesel.

I regularly drive my S2a at 100kph when I go to town - only problem is it is noisy and uses a lot of fuel. If you have suitable tyres and everything is in good condition there is nothing to worry about on good roads.

John

[numpty]

That was actually 68 KW, not HP. And yes there were restrictor plates in carbys, mine were already removed. Another addition was a spring loaded valve on the carby butterfly which opened and allowed more air in the mixture at idle. (early LR pollution efforts) Played havoc with engine braking in low range though, and the fix was to solder them up.

[djam1]

I have a Series 3 Stage 1 they are a good old vehicle, I have personally driven mine at over 150 kmh on the speedo (not incredibly accurate Im sure)
Power has never been an issue fuel economy if driven sensibly is ok if driven hard is terrible.
A fulltime 4x4 Series at speed are incredibly stable, as long as the steering is in good condition but they just dont stop quickly.

[scrambler]

68HP is wrong - figure is 91HP, detuned by a restrictor plate below each carburetter - mostly removed by now! 68 would be less than the 2.25 petrol and only about the same as the diesel.

I regularly drive my S2a at 100kph when I go to town - only problem is it is noisy and uses a lot of fuel. If you have suitable tyres and everything is in good condition there is nothing to worry about on good roads.

John
I stand corrected. Kw not HP. :(

As Numpty says, the detuning efforts have been reversed on every Stage 1 I have every heard of. This brings them close to RR tune (Hmmm, which I remember as being about 92HP but which presumably must be 92Kw). Still not a rocket. But it's the torque that's impressive compared to the other LR engines.

In Europe a lot of people stuck with the 4. Ex factory, there really was very little difference in power and consequently in top speed.

djam1, when I took delivery of my Stage 1 there was a 25% speedo error :o I used to drive at an indicated 150km quite frequently ;) and never less than an indicated 130 on the highway.

[JDNSW]

And the torque probably the factor involved in my being able to drive our Stage 1 to work one night with a seriously failing clutch. ......

Many years ago I drove my S2 through the evening peak hour in Brisbane after the slave cylinder haemhorraged. At each stop turn off engine, start in low first and execute clutchless changes through the gears, shifting into neutral and coasting on momentum when it became evident that a stop was needed. Not all that difficult for someone who learnt to drive without the benefit of synchromesh.

Stopped at the RACQ service HQ in the Valley and they refilled and bled the clutch hydraulics for me - got me home to Clayfield.

John

[fourteen8]

Anyone here use Series 3 as daily car? Saw Series on trading post the other...so tempted

[JDNSW]

Anyone here use Series 3 as daily car? Saw Series on trading post the other...so tempted

Not a Series 3, but I use a S2a as my daily car, but I don't live in town. I know Walrover uses his 2a as a daily car in town, and I'll bet there are others.

You can certainly use a Series 3 as a daily car, but it is probably less suitable, particularly the lwb diesel if you do a lot of freeway driving. How inconvenient it turns out to be depends entirely on what sort of driving you do on a daily basis. The lwb has a rather large turning circle, and no models have good acceleration compared to modern 2wd cars, except perhaps the Stage 1 (V8 or Isuzu), and fuel consumption is not very good except for the rather underpowered 2.25 diesel. If well maintained reliability should not be a problem, parts are readily available and are cheap compared to modern cars. At speed all S3s are noisy (the diesels at any speed) but some attention to body seals and adding some soundproofing will certainly help.
hope this helps
John

[scrambler]

I did use the Stage 1 as my daily car, and am just in process of buying a Series III ex-Army GS for a daily car. I expect the GS to be ok as I only have a short commute (if 5 minutes can be considered a commute) and the Stage 1 was fine. Noise levels were fine around town, it's only at highway speed that every window, edge etc making a noise is a worry. And then you just crank the stereo louder and it all goes away :D

[crossy]

Anyone here use Series 3 as daily car? Saw Series on trading post the other...so tempted

Yep - I'm doing around 1 & 1/2 hrs driving per day inner city driving to and from work.

[UncleHo]

G'day Dearot :)

I use my 68 2a Ex-Army soft top GS as my daily driver, and have since 1992, I live north of Brisbane near Caboolture and it is a 22klm trip into town, at highway speeds well as close as I can get 85-95Klm and regularly travel to Brisbane down the Bruce H'way just sit in the left lane and everything bolts past :D but when you hit the traffic jam, it just ticks along in 2nd :) I actually got the Temp gauge up to "N" once :eek: it usually sits just above cold.

One thing that I do notice is that you get a lot of courtsey at Round-Abouts in a Drab Olive Landy :D seems that female drivers in Ecco-Boxes don't want to cut you off :cool:

cheers

[George130]

And the torque probably the factor involved in my being able to drive our Stage 1 to work one night with a seriously failing clutch. Numpty says "minimise clutch use"...so was able to drive 35km, thru traffic lights, in heavy traffic, all the way in top gear. I challange anyone else to be able to take off in top gear from an almost standstill .....just not possible in most vehicles :D The old V8 tho...just powers away :D

Not in a Landy but I have in a Mazda van. Broke the slector lincage so would stop at the lights and the passenger would jump out climb under and select the gear we thought would best till the next lights and off we would go. This thing used to also overhead all the time so the middle passenger would have the hot seat. Their job was to yell when it got to hot so we could stop and top it up.

[fourteen8]

Wow I am surprise many people use their series as daily car. I only see few (three so far) on the road.
I know it is an old truck and I should not count on fuel economy but what is the fuel consumption approximately on series 3 2.3l petrol and is it expensive to maintain?
As I want to get landy with original engine if I am going to buy one and only to use it to go to works or maybe go to city once in while for fun. Need to get all the good info before present the proposal to the misus :D
Well I only live 5 minutes drive from work and go to city probably once a week on the weekend and its about 25km freeway driving.

[JDNSW]

Wow I am surprise many people use their series as daily car. I only see few (three so far) on the road.
I know it is an old truck and I should not count on fuel economy but what is the fuel consumption approximately on series 3 2.3l petrol and is it expensive to maintain?
As I want to get landy with original engine if I am going to buy one and only to use it to go to works or maybe go to city once in while for fun. Need to get all the good info before present the proposal to the misus :D
Well I only live 5 minutes drive from work and go to city probably once a week on the weekend and its about 25km freeway driving.

Series Landrovers fitted with the 2.25 petrol engine will get from about 12 to 30mpg, depending on driving and whether it is a long or short wheelbase, and the road conditions. For a Swb in good condition, you should be able to get close to 20mpg in traffic and around 25mpg on the highway provided you are careful with the throttle and brakes and have suitable tyres with the right pressure. For a lwb knock 4 or 5 off. If you have to keep up with the traffic, or if your area is very hilly, knock another five off. It is easy to get even worse figures if the brakes are dragging, the ignition timing a bit out, thermostat not working, choke partly on, a few fuel leaks, choked exhaust, valves need grinding etc.

You will do better, but not dramatically, if you get one with an 8:1 head or get it converted, and also slightly better with an overdrive on the highway if driving fast.

Maintenance interval is less than with a modern car, but should cost less, particularly if you do it yourself - which you can. Repairs may be more frequent than with a modern car but parts are usually a lot cheaper, and again, you can do a lot more yourself. But remember if you buy a thirty year old car, unless you are both very careful and very lucky, you will find yourself doing repairs that really should have been done years ago, just to get it into good shape.

John

John

[numpty]

[quote=:D

Bit like husbands really...you get used to their faults :D :D[/quote]

But she wouldn't have it any other way really:p ;)

[DaveS3]

I drove my Stage 1 with Swamper's round as my daily driver till mum donated her 4 cyl buzz box as she received a work car.

Dave.

[fourteen8]

Thanks for all the info guys...time to put them all in a spreadsheet and keep an eye on trading post....hopefully she agrees with me on this...wish me luck ;)

[UncleHo]

G'day Dearot :)

With mine running at highway speed (well almost) I get 16-19 Mpg, JDNSW could be a little wrong there with 30 Mpg:eek: or if he can get 30 out of a 2.25 Litre motor I would like to know his secret :D

I would advise you not to go for a Holden Conversion Vehicle as they can have problems, as the holden motor requires much higher revs to achive the same Torque, the Landrover 4 cyl achives Max Torque at 1900-2200 Rpm :)

cheers

[JDNSW]

G'day Dearot :)

With mine running at highway speed (well almost) I get 16-19 Mpg, JDNSW could be a little wrong there with 30 Mpg:eek: or if he can get 30 out of a 2.25 Litre motor I would like to know his secret :D

I would advise you not to go for a Holden Conversion Vehicle as they can have problems, as the holden motor requires much higher revs to achive the same Torque, the Landrover 4 cyl achives Max Torque at 1900-2200 Rpm :)

cheers

I must admit I was being generous about the 30mpg. I have got about 27-28 on the odd occasion from the swb Series 2 I owned in the early sixties - secret is to start with an area with no hills, smooth straight roads and no traffic, and drive (smoothly) at 30mph or less. I did this when I was sightseeing round the countryside at weekends just after I started living in Roma in 1963. On one occasion in my lwb 2a diesel, driving through northern SA from the Simpson to Port Augusta in 1966 I managed 36mpg - which did surprise me.

The quoted maximum torque rpm for the 2.25 petrol is 2500rpm - the diesel is 1750rpm. A quick Google shows the Holden motors with maximum torque at lower RPM, typically around 2000 (figures vary for different versions). Both Holden and Landrover engines give maximum horsepower at around the same figure 4000 for the Holden and 4250 for the Landrover. But driving experience suggests that the shape of the torque curves must be quite different! I suspect that the Holden engine is deficient on torque compared to the Landrover at really low engine speeds, 1000 - 1500, which I find I am often using in my 2a offroad or on rough tracks, although you'd think the six cylinders would help there. Probably influenced by carburetion, possibly camshaft, and the longer intake manifold on the six may cause problems at low speed - if you think about it, with a four such as in the Landrover you can have the same length intake to all cylinders - impossible with a six and one carburetter (in fact, you need three). The Holden may well be set up so that a standing wave resonance in the intake manifold gives a very sharp torque peak.

John

[crossy]

I must admit I was being generous about the 30mpg. I have got about 27-28 on the odd occasion from the swb Series 2 I owned in the early sixties - secret is to start with an area with no hills, smooth straight roads and no traffic, and drive (smoothly) at 30mph or less. I did this when I was sightseeing round the countryside at weekends just after I started living in Roma in 1963. On one occasion in my lwb 2a diesel, driving through northern SA from the Simpson to Port Augusta in 1966 I managed 36mpg - which did surprise me.

The quoted maximum torque rpm for the 2.25 petrol is 2500rpm - the diesel is 1750rpm. A quick Google shows the Holden motors with maximum torque at lower RPM, typically around 2000 (figures vary for different versions). Both Holden and Landrover engines give maximum horsepower at around the same figure 4000 for the Holden and 4250 for the Landrover. But driving experience suggests that the shape of the torque curves must be quite different! I suspect that the Holden engine is deficient on torque compared to the Landrover at really low engine speeds, 1000 - 1500, which I find I am often using in my 2a offroad or on rough tracks, although you'd think the six cylinders would help there. Probably influenced by carburetion, possibly camshaft, and the longer intake manifold on the six may cause problems at low speed - if you think about it, with a four such as in the Landrover you can have the same length intake to all cylinders - impossible with a six and one carburetter (in fact, you need three). The Holden may well be set up so that a standing wave resonance in the intake manifold gives a very sharp torque peak.

John

Not with one of these - should give more torque on idle than a well tuned 2.25 at full bore :wasntme:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/04/491.jpg

[JDNSW]

Not with one of these - should give more torque on idle than a well tuned 2.25 at full bore :wasntme:


Not necessarily - it depends on what the manifold was designed to do - might make it even peakier! The fact that such devices exist points out the problems with running six cylinders and one carburetter. (would it fit under the bonnet of a Landrover?)

But I was, of course, referring to the standard configuration Holden engines, and pointing out to Uncle Ho that the published figures for Holden (the engines usually fitted to landrovers) and Landrover engines do not show that Holden's peak torque is at higher revs than Landrovers.

The main point of course is that knowing where the peak torque figure is does not tell you anything about how the actual torque curves compare at any other rpm or overall. And while I have not really looked, a cursory search did not turn up curves for either engine, only peak numbers.

John

[shorty943]

Anyone here use Series 3 as daily car? Saw Series on trading post the other...so tempted

Yes here too. My S3 is my every-car.:D Now for some horsepower.:twisted:

Shorty.