V8 Discovery Fuel Pump Prob

[HAL]

Hi
I have proplem with fuel pump in V8 Disco 95.
It was working OK until this morning when I drove it to a Cafe.
Suddenly would not start.
Checked various parts and found there is no petrol pump noise comming from petrol tank.
Pulled out and re-welled wiring still no go.
Checked relays, it make noise when ignition is on.
It had started by hitting underneath of tank just below where pump sits while my wife starting ignition.
I do not want to hit the tank everytime starting the car.
1. What is wrong with it?
It is easy replacing to new but big $$$.
2. Does anyone have done alternative way of replacing fuel pump or have source of chaper pump?
I can remember someone in the forum was talking about replacing to Commodore one.
Thank you in advance.
HAL

[Blknight.aus]

twas me..

The generic holded in tank pump can be pressed into service quite easily.
getting the old pump out of its carrier was a by accident thing on my behalf but it does come out.

[byron]

twas me..

The generic holded in tank pump can be pressed into service quite easily.
getting the old pump out of its carrier was a by accident thing on my behalf but it does come out.

......well, we are all waiting with bated breath......what's a generic pump easily found in oz?.....and what do you have to do ?

[There's heaps of info available on U.S. sites about getting a pump out of any old big block El Camino or whatever that you find in any ole wrecking yard for $5 bucks..........um, but NOT over here!!!!!]

[BigJon]

I replaced the in tank pump in my 88 Rangie (very similar) with an external VL Turbo Commodore pump. Just soldered a piece of pipe into the pick up inside the tank where I removed the original pump from, then fitted and wired the new pump. Mounted on the RH chassis rail near the fuel filter.

[Blknight.aus]

twas me, the generic holden in tank replacement works well.

The original pump can be a bit of a pain to get out of its carrier, I got mine out by accident when i dropped it which lead to me going well naff me if that dont look just like a holden fuel pump....

from memory the only difference is the electrical connections which are easy enough to mod.

[byron]

I replaced the in tank pump in my 88 Rangie (very similar) with an external VL Turbo Commodore pump. Just soldered a piece of pipe into the pick up inside the tank where I removed the original pump from, then fitted and wired the new pump. Mounted on the RH chassis rail near the fuel filter.

So the new pump must be a positive displacement type? [able to draw up fuel from tank and self priming?......no problems with heat?......LR claim theirs is a high speed, high pressure type that is cooledby and lubricated by the fuel so has a very long and reliable life......I've not ever had to replace one so far and don't think that the $300 -odd dollars is THAT steep for a straight forward job that should last another quarter million klms!

[Datt]

This is interesting because mine has just gone aswell, about 2 days ago. It takes a bit of cranking but is still starting. I thought it was a bit odd that it was taking so long to start then realised I couldn't hear the fuel pump.

I've had a quick look to see where it is and assume it's a submerged pump, is this right? It looks like I will need to drop the tank to get to it, is this also correct?

I'm supposed to be heading up to Fraser on the 23rd and need to sought this out before I go, wouldn't want it not to start while I'm up there.

[101RRS]

I've had a quick look to see where it is and assume it's a submerged pump, is this right? It looks like I will need to drop the tank to get to it, is this also correct?

The pump is submerged but there is an access latch in the rear floor - lift the carpet etc and take the pump out through there - the tank does not need to come out.

Gazzz

[p38arover]

I replaced the in-tank pump in my '86 RR with a VN Commodore pump.

Ron

[byron]

I replaced the in-tank pump in my '86 RR with a VN Commodore pump.

Ron

Was that a straight "swap".....or did you need mods?......how did you do it?

[Blknight.aus]

Heres how I did it..

1. figure out fuel pressure is dodgy but volts and amps to pump are ok so it must be the pump.

2. go buy $500 odd pump in carrier ready to go

3. install it before the old one dies and put the old one on the passanger seat to be left there cause you keep forgetting to throw it out, make sure you do this during a stifling sydney summer. (to change, remove rear carpet, remove floor acces plate, undo all connections, undo big nut change over pump carrier and reverse all previous)

4. one day when remebering to throw it out accidently drop it so it falls apart on your (or your friends) pebble crete driveway.

5. seeing as its broken develop instantaneous curiosity as to what makes it tick and put everything else back in the rover, take the now semi apart pump and carrier to the garage and tinker

6. when SWMBO gets mad cause you are late leave it there for a week, go get ready, standby for abuse cause the passanger seat is covered in crap, remove crap, go get a towel to put over the now greasey passanger seat cover so she doesnt get her dress dirty and make profuse apologies on your way to the dinner.

7. a week later pull the little cylindrical pump out of the plastic casing and realise that it looks like every other intank EFI pump youve ever put in a holden.

8. goto your mate at supercheap or repco and ask real nice if you can open lots of his fuel pump boxes till you find one that fits a, the carrier and b, has the right sort of outlet to take the plasticy hose that makes it to the top of the carrier

9. bodge the wiring after assembly, put the thing in greaseproof paper, then into a box, wrap this in a bit of gaffa tape, label it, carry it everywhere and wait for the current pump to let go which it never will cause you now have a standby pump to fit in under 30 mins if you have to.

10 cop abuse from swmbo for the shoebox size part that you carry with you JIC that is taking up precious shopping storage room in the back.

11. try to work out how to justify 2 44 gallon drums of fuel as "critical spare fuel" to further limit her shopping spreees..


In all seriousness, buried in my box of goodies i have a "was sort of still working fuel pump from a 95 3.9v8, when my gear gets out of storage I'll get the numbers off of it.

[byron]

Heres how I did it..

1. figure out fuel pressure is dodgy but volts and amps to pump are ok so it must be the pump.

2. go buy $500 odd pump in carrier ready to go

3. install it before the old one dies and put the old one on the passanger seat to be left there cause you keep forgetting to throw it out, make sure you do this during a stifling sydney summer. (to change, remove rear carpet, remove floor acces plate, undo all connections, undo big nut change over pump carrier and reverse all previous)

4. one day when remebering to throw it out accidently drop it so it falls apart on your (or your friends) pebble crete driveway.

5. seeing as its broken develop instantaneous curiosity as to what makes it tick and put everything else back in the rover, take the now semi apart pump and carrier to the garage and tinker

6. when SWMBO gets mad cause you are late leave it there for a week, go get ready, standby for abuse cause the passanger seat is covered in crap, remove crap, go get a towel to put over the now greasey passanger seat cover so she doesnt get her dress dirty and make profuse apologies on your way to the dinner.

7. a week later pull the little cylindrical pump out of the plastic casing and realise that it looks like every other intank EFI pump youve ever put in a holden.

8. goto your mate at supercheap or repco and ask real nice if you can open lots of his fuel pump boxes till you find one that fits a, the carrier and b, has the right sort of outlet to take the plasticy hose that makes it to the top of the carrier

9. bodge the wiring after assembly, put the thing in greaseproof paper, then into a box, wrap this in a bit of gaffa tape, label it, carry it everywhere and wait for the current pump to let go which it never will cause you now have a standby pump to fit in under 30 mins if you have to.

10 cop abuse from swmbo for the shoebox size part that you carry with you JIC that is taking up precious shopping storage room in the back.

11. try to work out how to justify 2 44 gallon drums of fuel as "critical spare fuel" to further limit her shopping spreees..


In all seriousness, buried in my box of goodies i have a "was sort of still working fuel pump from a 95 3.9v8, when my gear gets out of storage I'll get the numbers off of it.

Hmmm......that's pretty close to how I'd do it too actually!:cool:

[GrahamH]

Guys, I've been through this too (about a week after I bought the vehicle). Mine's a '96 3.9 V8 SI disco, btw.

I priced a replacement pump from the parts suppliers I know of locally and was a bit awe-struck by the price. I ended up talking by e-mail to a very helpful lady called Mandy at JB LandRovers in the UK (sales@jblandrovers.co.uk) who was able to supply me with a new pump assembly for $AU250 including freight - a little cheaper than the Oz prices as I recall. In fact the genuine LR part was £GB311.00 and a "patterned" part (made in Cardiff) £GB86.00 with post & packing at £GB20 in Aug 2005 to give you a rough guide on price. (I chose the Welsh part and Mandy was able to avoid charging me the VAT after some initial uncertainty - it's a bit of a paperwork nightmare I gather, but quite legal for export.)

There was a drama getting the right part with a flying lead on the end of the pump motor - the original part number was PRC9409 and is now a "classic part" & has been removed from service. I've just checked the box of the replacement part and the Rover part No is PRC9668. The BM (supplier) part no is PRC8499.

I was only able to buy the whole pump assembly with gauge sender and frame - no-one seems to be able to supply the pump only, and this makes the Holden pump look quite attractive. When I researched this I was led to believe that different pumps run at different pressures and flow rates, and you should look for a match in terms of both as well as size & shape, when substituting, but since you guys report that the VN Commodore pump works, I guess that's the proof of the pudding, as it were.

In fact I ended up removing the pump motor from the the new (plastic) assembly and fitting it to the old (steel) assembly as it seemed a bit more robust. It wasn't a big drama to swap the pumps (the hardest bit was unclipping the bowl off the bottom of the new one as I needed to get 3 clips pressed at once and, not coming from near Chernobyl, I only have 2 hands). The job involved a bit of soldering and the judicious use of heat-shrink sleeving as the connector on the end of the motors was different. See the photo below which shows the new pump assembly with the old pump motor at left which may help you understand what you're up against.

If you buy a new pump, buy the rubber sealing ring for the tank entry at the same time.

Remember that the pump only runs until it has pressurised the fuel rail and then shuts off until the injectors draw fuel off the rail. So it is normal for it to run for a short time then stop when you turn the key to ignition without starting the engine. (This is handy when running on LPG as the pump doesn't wear itself out but fuel is available to injectors immediately on changeover!)

I'll be interest to hear if anyone can confirm that the Commodore pump has the same characteristics as the Landy one - it has to be a much cheaper alternative.

Good luck - I'll be interested to watch your progress!

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I remember thinking
"what idiot puts live wires inside a fuel tank?"

me apparently:angel:


swapped in a second hand commodore unit,,
(good manners tells me not to mention the price here;))
5 years down the track,, no problems:D

[Blknight.aus]

I'll be interest to hear if anyone can confirm that the Commodore pump has the same characteristics as the Landy one - it has to be a much cheaper alternative.

Good luck - I'll be interested to watch your progress!

From memory it doesnt its got a little better flow rate but the delivery pressure is on spec which is the important part...

But its over 9 years ago since I found this stuff out and researched it. 90% of the real sized holdens with intank pumps run the same pump unless you have something exotic that drinks fuel like theres not going to be a tomorrow

[p38arover]

Was that a straight "swap".....or did you need mods?......how did you do it?

Not quite a straight swap. As noted by Blknight, the electrical connections were different but it was easy to do. The pump itself looked identical and fitted straight into the carrier. I'm pretty sure it was a VN pump. I have the details at home.

Ron

[BigJon]

I went with the external pump because A: I had it :D and B: My Rangie doesn't have the access hole in the floor.

[p38arover]

I went with the external pump because A: I had it :D and B: My Rangie doesn't have the access hole in the floor.

Mine didn't originally but John Davis Motorworks had fitted one for the previous owner.

Ron

[LRHybrid100]

old post now - over 2 years old!!!

Here's my install of a VL pump to an EFI Rangie

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php't=18954

HTH

LRH

[4bee]

So, to recap briefly, as there appears to be some differing methods here. Correct me if I am wrong, pleeeease.;)

As this is a most important repair, it is very important to get this right & safely.



Discovery

1. Source a Bosch 0580 464 070 intank pump. (REPCO) Use LR pump carrier.

?? Same as Holden VN V6 'Fuel Miser' pump.

2. Fit a suitable sized external inline filter to the suction side of the pump & locate it in the tank?

3. SAFELY remake the the electrical connections depending on the differences.

Volvo 240 & 260 intank pump may also fit. :confused:

Roger so far?

[p38arover]

3. SAFELY remake the the electrical connections depending on the differences.

Even if they did spark, I doubt anything would happen. I think (but don't quote me!) that the air fuel ratio in the tank would preclude an explosion or even fire - a bit like a lighted match thrown into a full petrol drum won't cause an explosion (so I'm told).

Ron

[4bee]

(but don't quote me!)

Says "Lucky Ron".:D ;)

Was just to emphasise the point, Ron. I feel sure that anyone contemplating doing this job would ensure the job was done well. Wouldn't they?:D

[Pedro_The_Swift]

trust me;)

I reused the original in-tank filter---:o

[4bee]

So, what's the drill with the Sender? :confused:

I assume the replacement Bosch/Holden/Volvo etc comes with one that is suitable for the Discovery tank?
Or does that have to be adapted as well?

I'm sorry, but I don't know how the Sender in this application works.:(

S2A no probs.:D

[p38arover]

So, what's the drill with the Sender? :confused:

I assume the replacement Bosch/Holden/Volvo etc comes with one that is suitable for the Discovery tank?
Or does that have to be adapted as well?

No, you keep the original sender and mounting frame and fit just the electric pump to the assembly.

Ron

[4bee]

Thanks, Ron. :) So it sits happily on the existing frame still sensing the level?

I don't need one............................................... ...........yet,:( & it would be clearer in my mind if I actually had seen one in the flesh, so to speak.
It is good being able to collect this information from those who have done this repair, for the "just in case" scenario.

Ed. Just found this very descriptive In-tank Fuel Pump Repair website.

http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/fuelpump4.html

[p38arover]

Thanks, Ron. :) So it sits happily on the existing frame still sensing the level?<snip>

Ed. Just found this very descriptive In-tank Fuel Pump Repair website.

http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/fuelpump4.html (http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/fuelpump4.html)

Yes, it does.

Also, I forgot about that page on the RangeRovers.net website.

Ron

[Outlaw]

okay before you go and buy the new pump try this.... i was having a similar problem with my pump recently and wouldn't kick in... got to a point i started bashing the rear floor with a hammer a couple times to get it to start.

soon that wasn't working either so had my local mechanic replace the pump (about $300 all up from memory)... 1 day later and it's not working again... thought WTF

Ended up pulling off the inspection panel, removing the plug into it and replacing then it started... replaced cover worked for a day then stopped again... did it again, remove cover, jiggle connection and started... didn't bother replacing the panel and has now been going for a few weeks with no problems till yesterday when a box of books fell on the connector.

Something definitely wrong with the electrics but provided the panels not on all perfect.

[HAL]

Thanks guys:)
I have tried to source Holden pumps but I had difficulty finding right one.

I have received April LR enthusiast subscription and tried Puddockspares.com then new fuel assembly cost GBP65.00 parts #ESR3926.
GC quoted AUD324.50:mad:
KC quoted 248.74 genuine and 199.42 after market.^_^
I have already send order to paddock when I have received quote from KC.
I would go to Paddock this time together with seal and locking ring GBP73 all up.
Exchange rate is around 2.5 therefore it would cost me around AUD200 including freight.
I guess it is OK considering I do not have to change it for another 200k (I hope) and do not have to modify pump.
But it is good to know which Commodore part exactly fit to Disco.
I would like to try external pump because I had same problem with submerged pumps on my other car in much low mileage.
HAL

[RichardK]

Here is my Commodore conversion on my '86 RR

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/10/51.jpg




https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/10/52.jpg

[Bradtot]

Hey Richard here is mine from my 89...almost snap


http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/8016/dsc03685fg2.jpg





As I have gas and long range sill tanks I used this pump on the r/hand side of Rangie but it picks up from the left hand tank, so far 2 years all ok

Brad

[p38arover]

You think our pumps are dear? Read this thread: http://www.4wdmonthly.com.au/forum/showthread.php't=30336

Ron

[4bee]

Just contacted REPCO Adelaide re availability of the Bosch 0580 464 070 just in case & doing my homework.
Still available, & seems it suits a whole list of vehicles inc. BMWs, Peugots, Holden VN V6 but not Volvos:confused:
. Unfortunately, Land Rover are not in that list (would have been nice :() but sounds like it will go ok.

Price $212 inc. GST.

[LBudgie]

WOW
Weird, exactly a year ago the wife and I set of on a driving holiday before #1 was born. Car stopped about 10 km outside Bingara NSW. Fuel pump died. Waited in town for 3 days till we got a replacement delivered and replaced the pump. 3 days in bingara , a holiday to remember. Had some intermittent trouble with the new one for a day before I jiggled the connector on the pump to get it working, just like outlaw mentioned above. Went to an auto electrician to put a new plug on it, but he said he didn’t have anything turned around and walked away like a rude pig. Asked the apprentice where the nearest dick smith store was as I was going to bypass the plug and put in some jump wires as I wanted some reliability as we were going to Fraser Island on the trip. The apprentice ended up doing it for $25.
And has not played up since. This reminds me that I need to seal the joins and replace the cover above the pump
cost about $300 from a place called 4wd spares (or something like that).
In my opionion id pay the bucks for a new one and have peace of mind that no hose clamp is going to let go or something like that.

[GrahamH]

Chaps, I recall someone telling me that there's an issue with the early pumps which featured the 12V connector fixed on the top surface of the pump mounting plate alongside the fuel outlet/return.

Allegedly, if the rear floor sags a little (due to carrying heavy loads, I guess) the inspection cover can chafe the connector which can cause the plastic insulation on the connector to wear away allowing the bodywork to short the supply to the pump and blow the fuse.

It's also possible that, before causing catastrophic failure, the same mechanism could cause the connector to loose tension in its contacts from being moved around as the bodywork flexes and the connection would then become intermitant.

I believe that later pump assemblies have a flying lead out of the plate which can lie out of harms way solving this problem. It may be an option to (carefully) attach flying leads to the older pumps and remote mount the connection before they fail in this way. Water-proofed Utilux 1/4" spade connectors should do the trick (make the +12V male and the ground female on the pump to reduce the risk of reverse connecting it in the future).

Sorry I don't have a photo to illustrate but it may be visible on one of the photos on the rangerovers.net website with the details on repairing the pump. My pump has a small round plastic housing on top of the plate with the leads exiting the side to a remote connector.

Ironically the first thing for the floor to rub on now is the fuel line connections. Is this an improvement I ask myself?

[Utemad]

Source a Bosch 0580 464 070 intank pump. (REPCO) Use LR pump carrier.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/04/72.jpg (http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50613747/Electric_Fuel_Pump.summ.jpg)

This is a pic of the pump mentioned. It appears to be an external pump not internal.
When I called Autobarn they said that the VN Commodore had two pumps. A low pressure in tank pump and a high pressure external pump.

Ashdown's has this pump for $250 +GST but it would appear it is the wrong one???
Bosch just confirmed this is definately an external pump.

Just got off the phone to Bosch and they said the part number for the VN V6 in tank pump is F000TE1772. Pump only with parts (strainer I guess).
Can anyone confirm if this is the pump they used to replace the intank Land Rover pump?

[Utemad]

well I just went and bought the VN pump. Only $106 from REPCO and was also quoted $110 from Coventry.
It is called a BOSCH Premium Fuel Pump. According to Bosch's phone people it fits a lot of different makes but Land Rover isn't listed as being one of them.
Part No: F000TE1772

It looks like it will fit alright. It came with a whole bunch of stuff like hose clamps and rubbers etc that no doubt are to suit a VN.

Now my question for the minute is what is the go with pressures? I forgot to check them before I left.

The LR 3.9 RAVE CD says it requires 2.4-2.6 BAR (34-37 PSI).
The Bosch unit is 3.8 BAR (55.1 PSI).

I assume this is too much but last time I looked into fuel pumps for a different car I was told that even though the pump was rated too high that under operating conditions it wouldn't actually be that high.

What does the brains trust think?

[PhilipA]

Thats why you have a fuel pressure regulator ( on the rail in D1 and in tank on D2) and a return line to the tank.
The pressure in the injectors is kept at AFAIK a constant 2.4 bar relative to the internal manifold pressure/vacuum .
The excess is bled off and returned to the tank. In this way the combination of ECU and pressure regulator ensures correct A/F ratio at all altitudes and atmospheric pressures.
Regards Philip A

[Pedro_The_Swift]

at one stage our (previous)B6 mazda turbo had the ability under full boost to shut down return and switch of regulaters
so all pressure went to the injectors,,( still not sure how that was done,,,)

but hey,, when you gotta go---;)

[4bee]

Utemad.

Is that Bosch Premium Pump P/N F000TE1772 internal or external?

This appears to be the confusing bit.;)

I confirmed that P/N 0580 464 070 with REPCO & they confirmed it. WTF?:confused:

[Utemad]

Thanks PhillipA. That was my rough understanding of what would happen. However I just wanted to check before I blew a fuel line with the excess pressure and my vehicle burnt to the ground :oops2::D

4bee, the part I just bought (F000TE1772) is definately an internal pump. The part number you had in your post a couple of pages back (0580 464 070) is definately an external pump.
However the pump you just mentioned (050 460 070) I know nothing of. Was that a typo or another pump again?

[4bee]

Was that a typo or another pump again?Moi? As if? :D Typo. Edited now. Dunno where that came from. Freudian slip or something?;)

I will go by your findings, as you have the good oil, but it does seem a bit confusing with all these internal/ external/ this number/ that number etc.

Maybe REPCO are incorrect & stuffed up the info. I deffo told her internal hence that number.:confused:

[Utemad]

I deffo told her external hence that number.:confused:

Ummm what do you mean?
The number you quoted was external.

When I spoke to Ashdowns (which according to Bosch was bought out by REPCO 18 months ago) they couldn't tell me just by the part number if it was internal or external. They didn't have any stock of your pump but didn't even know what my pump was (going from Bosch part numbers).
I got all the info about the pumps from Bosch direct 1300 307 040. Pretty helpful guys.
The retail outlets really new diddly squat.

I saw the pump you quoted at REPCO when I bought the internal pump and it was the same as the picture I posted before. Definately external. Plus Bosch said it was definately external.

[4bee]

I think I am going to have a nervous breakdown.:D


INTERNAL.;)

[Utemad]

I think I am going to have a nervous breakdown.:D


INTERNAL.;)

Don't worry tomorrow is Friday :)

[4bee]

:D When you are retired, you can choose any day to have one.:)

[rangie2]

Hi
I have proplem with fuel pump in V8 Disco 95.
It was working OK until this morning when I drove it to a Cafe.
Suddenly would not start.
Checked various parts and found there is no petrol pump noise comming from petrol tank.
Pulled out and re-welled wiring still no go.
Checked relays, it make noise when ignition is on.
It had started by hitting underneath of tank just below where pump sits while my wife starting ignition.
I do not want to hit the tank everytime starting the car.
1. What is wrong with it?
It is easy replacing to new but big $$$.
2. Does anyone have done alternative way of replacing fuel pump or have source of chaper pump?
I can remember someone in the forum was talking about replacing to Commodore one.
Thank you in advance.
HAL
had mine replaced at purcells in perth for $250

[rangie2]

Gday from WA
had mine (disco 1) at purcell autos in welshpool
for about $350 installed not a bad price bite the
bullet and fix it

[Utemad]

Gday from WA
had mine (disco 1) at purcell autos in welshpool
for about $350 installed not a bad price bite the
bullet and fix it

I never rang Land Rover to find out the replacement cost of the entire pump assembly. The assembly for a 2003 V6 Rodeo is $800 genuine and it looks near identical.
I'd say Purcell's also just replaced the pump itself. Maybe with the proper replacement pump though that someone mentioned they got from GB for $250 or so.

[Utemad]

Alright guys some good news.

I fitted the Bosch pump I bought (F000TE1772) and the car runs. Haven't taken it for a drive yet as the interior is still in bits but it idles and revs fine.

The new pump is extremely quiet. You can only hear it if you go to the back of the car and listen carefully. The last one could be heard from the drivers seat.

Fitting the pump into the carrier was fairly straightforward with the only difficult bit being getting the pump feet into the slots without the screen/filter/pillow getting in the way. I reused the original silicone fuel hose.

So for $106 it was all sorted.

Bosch said they available from REPCO, Coventrys and I think Bursons.

[4bee]

Thanks for that info, utemad. Good work. :D $106 seems not a bad price at all.
Just hope I don't need it now, but knowing it's freely available is a big plus.

I will make a note & insert it in the Owner's handbook.

I always use Morey's Upper Cylinder Lubricant in with the fuel & have wondered if this could help with the longevity of the pump as a lubricant? Also it gets a cup of Metho every few months in the cold weather, so hopefully any water will get the big A as well.

[Utemad]

No worries 4bee. It is a bit of mucking around but no doubt many hundreds of dollars cheaper than a new assembly.

One word of advice though. Don't touch the little wire that connects the fuel gauge to the normal wiring :D. It is a little bit of conductive string. It looked quite frayed at one point and as soon as I touched it the string broke in half :(.

I soldered it back together and the arm can still move throughout its entire range but the string has lost some of its flexibility. I checked it with a multimeter and the fuel gauge gives a reading but how long it will last I don't know.

I was going to replace the string with normal wire but I imagine that would harden and snap eventually as well.

[GrahamH]

For those of you who'd like to see what happens inside a pump when it fails, the following pictures may be of interest. This pump came out of my mate's '95 RangeRover 4.6 HSE. It seems to be beyond repair (but if anyone wants a challenge I can mail you the parts).

First up is the bearing and brush housing at the top of the pump - it has been subject to significant heat, probably due to the brushes beginning to fail and becoming very hot as they make poor contact with the commutator. This has caused the housing to melt, the bearing is almost completely gone and the brushes have fallen over and a lump of nylon(?) has congealed in a spot which seized the rotor.

Second is the commutator which is built as a segmented disk. The heat has severely damaged most of the segments and the brushes have scored the segment surface as they've disintegrated.

Third is the armature which shows signs of the windings swelling with the heat and that has pushed out the the rubber sealing strips from between the pole pieces which has also caused the rotor to seize.

Fourth is the permanent magnet stator and the body - we swaged open the can end to remove the end bearing with a screw driver which is not very pretty. The magnets have been hot but the pump end bearing appears intact - it's the one that gets cooled by the fuel after all.

Final picture is the pump end of the assembly with the filter removed - you can see the pump impeller at right. It was seized when we first inspected the pump.

Undoubtedly not all pumps fail catastrophically like this one, and if the brushes simply wear down and lose contact with the commutator without developing a high resistance joint, there shouldn't be this much heat damage.

Hope you guys find these interesting.

[Utemad]

That is certainly one stuffed motor Graham. I should try pulling mine apart again to see what happened. All I managed last time I tried was to break the plastic on top. Although since I have already replaced the motor it hardly matters if I'm a bit heavy on the tools :)

[GrahamH]

UM, I think you could afford to apply the "Don't force it, use a bigger hammer" philosophy since you're never going to reinstall it - it would be interesting to perform a post mortem as we did today.

Incidentally, with the Rangie, it's worth bearing in mind that if the fuel pump stops, it could be due to the inertia switch which is mounted behind the driver side kick panel. It's only supposed to operate if the vehicle suffers a sudden stop, like in an accident. There is a small hatch carrying a graphic of a bowser with a lightning bolt through it (not a good combination really!) which you remove to gain access to a rubber shrouded push button on top of the inertia switch. You push the button down to reset it and it should operate with a positive click.

On my mate's '95 Rangie the replacement second hand fuel pump appears to have failed now and during the investigations today I found that the inertia switch had operated. Pushing the rubber button didn't reset it and I had to remove the kick panel and pull out the switch, then remove the shroud and push the mechanism to reset it properly. I could test the switch by tapping the front of it with a screwdriver handle and get it to pop again, but it didn't like resetting with the rubber shroud on at all. This may be a useful tip for Rangie owners - if the vehicle stops dead check the inertia switch but you may find it won't reset properly without taking the thing apart.

The inertia switch appears to be the last place you can check for +12V going to the pump (on the white/blue wire) before it goes to the rear of the car (there are no more intermediate connectors) and it seems you can't get to the pump without dropping the main fuel tank from up in the body floor - I'd be cutting a hatch in the floor under the rear passenger seat for future access while I had the tank out if it were my car, I think.

The outcome in this case is that although I'm sure the inertia switch had operated, the pump still doesn't run and the next step is to drop the tank and check the second-hand pump - I'm pretty sure it'll be U/S.

Maybe this will help someone trace a non-working fuel pump problem in the future. Good luck!

[Utemad]

I pulled my old pump apart this morning. The pump and motor spun freely. Mine died due to the brushes failing. One brush was not moving freely in the housing and the other one was worn away entirely. All that was left was the wire and spring :eek:

I checked my inertia switch when I had the first problem which in a Disco is behind the windscreen washer bottle on the firewall.

What motor did you use as a replacement and how long did it last?
Perhaps it is a loose wire from the install?

[GrahamH]

The replacement pump, which I think has now failed too, was a complete pump drop-in assembly (gauge sender, frame, pump motor - the lot) out of a wrecked P38 Rangie. So no, this doesn't shed any particular light on the idea of using an OEM pump motor in the LandRover in-tank assembly. The pump has probably done a few Km's before my mate got it.

When (and if) we confirm that the replacement pump is U/S then we may well replace it with the VN Commodore pump but that's next week's project.

By the way, apparently it's not unknown for the wiring to go open circuit where it comes through the resin block on top of the in-tank assembly, so it's always worth checking the wiring for continuity with a multi-meter at that point too.

UM it sounds like you could try making new brushes for your pump and keeping it in your kit as an emergency spare. I think the hardest part of the exercise would swaging the aluminium case back around the brush holder because of it's inherent tendency to stretch when you pulled it apart. But if you can manage that you should have a viable spare. If you try it, I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

[Utemad]

UM it sounds like you could try making new brushes for your pump and keeping it in your kit as an emergency spare. I think the hardest part of the exercise would swaging the aluminium case back around the brush holder because of it's inherent tendency to stretch when you pulled it apart. But if you can manage that you should have a viable spare. If you try it, I'll be interested to hear how you get on.

I have successfully reassembled the motor from my cousin's 2003 Rodeo fuel pump. However this one was little more ahhh difficult to get apart. There is no possible way that that pump will ever be going back together :D

[Frontier1]

Probably just a final note on this, I have just replaced my second fuel pump in as many years.

The first one had seized and on pulling it apart (ok, totally tearing it apart) I saw that my brushes had welded themselves to the armature, disconected themslves from the wire coming down through the springs and jammed the pump impeller at the bottom.

The new pump failure was a bit different. The brushes I suspect were the problem again but in this case the actual black and red wires that come down through the pump carriage had both melted as well, exposing the coil of wire that each one has, to each other and then melting together. I believe this was able to happen as the tank was near on empty so there was air around the wires instead of liquid (fuel). I imagine that the only reason that it failed to "go up" was that it was lacking in oxygen to make it go any further.

I only wonder whether a tank that is kept half to full is less likely to burn out the pump.

[chazza]

Frontier,
The handbook says to keep at least 1/4 of a tank full at all times, or the pump will overheat.

Thanks for the info Utemad - very reassuring to know that there is a cheaper alternative,
cheers Chazza

[Utemad]

as well, exposing the coil of wire that each one has,

Anyone know what these coils are for?

[4bee]

Anyone know what these coils are for?


I don't know what this is in reference to, but wonder if it is a coil designed to concertina as the pump is designed to lift upwards if the tank bottom gets a thump.:confused:

[Utemad]

The coils are in the power wires for the pump inside the tank. They are tightly wound and I think heatshrinked. Not designed to concertina.

[4bee]

Another interesting article. Bosch orientated.


http://www.autohausaz.com/html/fuelpumps.html

[Frontier1]

The coils are in the power wires for the pump inside the tank. They are tightly wound and I think heatshrinked. Not designed to concertina.


If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll take a pic of how they "currently" look compared to how they should appear on a working pump and yes Utemad, you are referring to the right part.

Cheers, Pete'

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Another interesting article. Bosch orientated.


http://www.autohausaz.com/html/fuelpumps.html



thats a great read:D

[Frontier1]

If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll take a pic of how they "currently" look compared to how they should appear on a working pump and yes Utemad, you are referring to the right part.

Cheers, Pete'

It took me a few extra days to get around to this, had to find one of my old pumps in order to show a "before" and "after" shot.

One of these pics shows how the wires should look, the other how they shouldn't. You guess which one!

[Blknight.aus]

Another interesting article. Bosch orientated.


http://www.autohausaz.com/html/fuelpumps.html

Bosch orientated.?


Reads like it was written by the CEO of bosch himself...

(but all the points are valid even if its biased towards a certain brand)

[GrahamH]

The coils appear to be RF suppression chokes and they appear to be wound on a former which is probably a ferrite material (iron dust which has magnetic properties).

A brush / commutator system in a DC electric motor generates lots of electrical noise due to the sparks generated as the brush slides off one commutator segment and onto the next, essentially. This electrical noise is easily coupled back into the vehicle's electrical system through the pump wiring causing problems for any electrical devices operating with very small signals throughout the car, eg the AM/FM radio and, potentially the engine ECU.

The chokes provide a high impedance to the conduction of the noise into the wiring loom. They're often used in conjunction with a capacitor from the wire to ground so that the noise signal is actually bypassed or shorted to ground but there aren't any capacitors in evidence here. The chokes provide almost no impedance to the flow of direct current, btw.

Not all pumps are fitted with suppression chokes - the original in mine wasn't and neither is the replacement. If you want to reuse the pump housing you could rewire it and omit the chokes. It's not hard to rebuild them - you just need some enamelled copper wire (with a thin insulating coating) of the same diameter (ie cross-sectional area). Unwind the damaged wire, cut the new wire to the same length and wind it carefully back onto the former. Run a little glue into the wire to hold it in place then, when it's dry put some heatshrink over it and seal it with a hot air gun (a pant stripper will do). The enamelled copper wire and heatshrink tube are available from Dick Smith or Jaycar.

Does that help?

[Utemad]

When I installed my Bosch pump into the carrier I didn't resuse the old wire (or the coils). I used the new wire supplied with the pump. Haven't noticed any new problems.

Good to know what they are for though.

I need to pull my pump out again though. The wire for the sender I dodgied up must have broken as the fuel gauge is sitting on empty. I plan on replacing the wire with headphone wire. That flexy coloured wire.

My pump looks like the RHS photo. Although I am sure my top plate was plastic not metal.

[Utemad]

And if you need to go for a pump only this post is part of a thread that was running recently.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php't=36549&highlight=bosch+tank+pump&page=5

4bee that is a link to page 5 of THIS thread :confused:

Am I missing something here?:wasntme:

[matbor]

Interesting read, i know mine is going to die soon, just have that feeling :)

UTEMAD, is your disco a 3.9 or 3.5 v8 ?

Might go and get myself a spare VN pump, ready for that day it dies :(

Matt.

[Blknight.aus]

Thats why you have a fuel pressure regulator ( on the rail in D1 and in tank on D2) and a return line to the tank.
The pressure in the injectors is kept at AFAIK a constant 2.4 bar relative to the internal manifold pressure/vacuum .
The excess is bled off and returned to the tank. In this way the combination of ECU and pressure regulator ensures correct A/F ratio at all altitudes and atmospheric pressures.
Regards Philip A

ERRRRmmmmm yes,no maybe....

The pressure regulator will deal with a little over pressure but you have to be careful as to how much flow and over pressure your asking it to deal with...


a pump with the same pressure rating but a higher flow rate will be ok as the pump wont shift the volume of fuel once the pressure gets up to the operating range.

A pump with the same flow rate and a higher pressure rating wont raise the pressure as it cant shift the volume of fuel required to cause the pressureregulator to jam wide open and then raise the pressure.

A pump with an increase in both can achieve this. If your replacement fuel pump is over in both specs (a little bit you should be able to get away with but dont count on its reliability or economy in the vehicle) Dont use it.

on that note, if the fuel pump your going to fit doesnt list a flow rate but does list a pressure rating DONT use it. In the world of hyrdaulics pressure is created by the resistance to flow, an easy way to gain (temporarily) more pressure is to simply increase the flow rate. If you dont have a flow rate listed its probabley a cheap pump thats been tweaked to get more pressure and might fall into the higher flow rate AND higher pressure catagory.

[Utemad]

Interesting read, i know mine is going to die soon, just have that feeling :)

UTEMAD, is your disco a 3.9 or 3.5 v8 ?

Might go and get myself a spare VN pump, ready for that day it dies :(

Matt.

It's a 3.9. Still running fine.

[matbor]

It's a 3.9. Still running fine.

Thought so, just didn't see it anywhere.

Thanks.

[PhilipA]

ERRRRmmmmm yes,no maybe....

The pressure regulator will deal with a little over pressure but you have to be careful as to how much flow and over pressure your asking it to deal with...


a pump with the same pressure rating but a higher flow rate will be ok as the pump wont shift the volume of fuel once the pressure gets up to the operating range.


Blacknight, The context is that he is talking a VN Commodore 3.8 engine.
In my research on regulators when I put my Thor on, I believe that the Commodore regulator is exactly the samepressure and flow rate ( physically it may be a mirror image), The fuel requirements of the motor are near as dammit the same 3.8 vs 3.9 , so there is a 99% chance that the fuel pump will have a similar spec.
I wanted to KISS it.
Regards Philip A

[Blknight.aus]

Blacknight, The context is that he is talking a VN Commodore 3.8 engine.
In my research on regulators when I put my Thor on, I believe that the Commodore regulator is exactly the samepressure and flow rate ( physically it may be a mirror image), The fuel requirements of the motor are near as dammit the same 3.8 vs 3.9 , so there is a 99% chance that the fuel pump will have a similar spec.
I wanted to KISS it.
Regards Philip A


and thats true enough but the warning I was giving was for someone looking for a replacement pump.... theres a hodge podge of pumps out there and physically they look the same but the regulators can vary hugely, an engine that is high in low down torque uses less fuel than one built to rev its nipples off and as the pumps are generally an On/Off setup the one with the higher fuel demand has a regulator capable of dumping more fuel as at idle they pump will be immitating a firepump and the fuel has to go somewhere....

you can get both sets of regulators and pumps to suit the various engine tunes that can be setup in a holden which I probabley should have indicated in the first posting... Sorry if that lack of info has caused any confusion..

[muddydigger]

I was facing the fuel pump saga just last week. I thought seriously about going the VL-VN route but at the end I decided it was easier and would be less problomatic to just replace it with a LAndrover product, so I did, problume solved car runs like new no pressure regulator issues and or line volume.
Just a thought!

[Utemad]

I was facing the fuel pump saga just last week. I thought seriously about going the VL-VN route but at the end I decided it was easier and would be less problomatic to just replace it with a LAndrover product, so I did, problume solved car runs like new no pressure regulator issues and or line volume.
Just a thought!

How much was the pump?

[muddydigger]

How much was the pump?

$100 from JAG RANGE ROVER spares at Kedron

[Utemad]

$100 from JAG RANGE ROVER spares at Kedron

Are we talking just the pump or the entire assembly? Also who made it or was it just branded Land Rover?

The VN pump is just the pump you fit into the assembly for $106 from Bosch.

[LRHybrid100]

Go The VL Bosch Pump!!!

Lrh

[matbor]

$100 from JAG RANGE ROVER spares at Kedron


Thats cheap, doesn't sound geniue part ! and doesn't sound like a new one !

[Ralph1Malph]

Remember that the pump only runs until it has pressurised the fuel rail and then shuts off until the injectors draw fuel off the rail. So it is normal for it to run for a short time then stop when you turn the key to ignition without starting the engine. (This is handy when running on LPG as the pump doesn't wear itself out but fuel is available to injectors immediately on changeover!)



A bit late on this thread but the info is still top quality :)
I am about to replace my pump, which as stopped working. It sits in a 30l sill tank due to LPG conversion. Because of this the sound is not baffled as much and is always apparent. Herein lies my confusion. It never switched off as I recall. I often wondered why they (the LPG installers) didn't incorporate some dohicky to shut it off when on LPG.
When I install the new one, I will do that. I am concerned that it may trigger something in the ECM but we'll see.

Ralph

[Utemad]

It never switched off as I recall. I often wondered why they (the LPG installers) didn't incorporate some dohicky to shut it off when on LPG.
When I install the new one, I will do that. I am concerned that it may trigger something in the ECM but we'll see.

When I spoke to an LPG installer about this I was told the pump needs to keep running to cool the fuel rail. Also something about fuel going stale or gumming up?

[Ralph1Malph]

When I spoke to an LPG installer about this I was told the pump needs to keep running to cool the fuel rail. Also something about fuel going stale or gumming up?


Yes of course!:angel:
That makes sense. I often have stale fuel issues as it only starts on petrol not runs. I might leave it as is just put a switch to manually turn it off on long trips or when the tank is near empty and the noise is louder.:cool:
Thanks
Ralph

[Blknight.aus]

not so much gumming up but cooking the addatives into the fuel rail. When you restart the pump fresh fuel comes in and will generally wash them away. When this happens you cant guarentee that the left over bits will mix cleanly which means you might get some crud in a jelly state entering the injector causing problems...

IMHO I agree with leaving the pump running when on LPG but dont think that it needs to be on full steam as all its doing is flowing fuel around to stop it from being cooked into the main supply rail. The downside to that is the pressure regulator which needs to be opened up by fuel pressure to get the fuel to return to the tank which means the pump needs to be on full steam... Hrm bit of a catch 22..

and no turning off the pump and running the engine till the fuel is used up(like you do on a carby lpg duel fueler) wont work as the injectors rely on the fuel pressure to squirt it out, once the pump is off the pressure drops very quickly and leaves a lot of residual fuel in the rail and since its not under any pressure will cook even quicker than if you just turn the pump off and then turn over to lpg...

[matbor]

Originally Posted by muddydigger https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/768.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=555148#post555148)
$100 from JAG RANGE ROVER spares at Kedron



Thats cheap, doesn't sound genuine part ! and doesn't sound like a new one !



Muddydigger, did u find out if it was a genuine part ?

[matbor]

just found this on ebay before.... looks aftermarket, no cheaper though.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/DISCOVERY-RANGE-ROVER-FUEL-PUMP-SENDER_W0QQitemZ180136974173QQihZ008QQcategoryZ102 341QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/07/400.jpg

Didn't know LR made a 3.8lt though :D