disco 3 vs RR vs RRS reliability

[jase]

ok
the time has come to buy the wife a car :( (it's been coming for a while)
Her B'day is coming up and I may as well get the brownie points :angel: & the new car (and save buying another presant)
Rather than stall her another month, make her grumpy :( and have to buy a presant as well as a car :( (well it makes sence to me)
So going to go all out and spend big bucks so this one has to last for a few years = 200,000kms without killing me on repair bills
I've been looking around for the last month and for about the same money ($60-70k) I can get a 4 year old RR or a 2 year old disco 3
(a RRS is more $ due to newer age and the higher new cost so probably wont happen although it's her fave)
I know what I prefer (the big Rangie :cool: ) and I know pros / cons of the different models re features, functions, size ect
but for purely relaibility, doing high kms anyone (esp those who work at stealers) have any feedback good or bad
note they would be second hand (current shape) and DIESEL varients

feedback appreciated
thanks
Jase

[mns488]

no tech input (so probably not much help), but i'd go the RRS:D

RRS = max browny points:)

[Scouse]

I don't really know too many high Km Disco3's. I think the highest I know is around the 80k mark & he's had no serious issues (TDV6). Suspension ball joints are getting to be an early wear issue on some cars.

The LM RR's do have the front diff issue (which there is a fix for) & some auto's don't like high mileage. Other than that, the RR, esp Td6, has been pretty good.

The plastic trims in both D3 & RR are a bit on the low quality side but I'm sure that's liveable.

My pick would be the Td6 RR.

[jase]

Thanks Scosue


I don't really know too many high Km Disco3's. I think the highest I know is around the 80k mark & he's had no serious issues (TDV6). was worried casue I didn't know any over that either at least i've seen a couple of RR at 150k (although not sure of how many dramas they've had to get there) Suspension ball joints are getting to be an early wear issue on some cars. hmm, hadn't heard that one before, are they expensive to fix? if just a normal ball joint at normal cost (not a LR special ;) ) then no big deal

The LM RR's do have the front diff issue (which there is a fix for)aware of the diff issue and a bit uneasy re cost to fix and fix reliability & long term ?? this for me is the biggest drawback of the RR & some auto's don't like high mileage. hadn't heard this one what do they do and how $$ to fix?
Other than that, the RR, esp Td6, has been pretty good.
thought the BMtrubbleU engine is pretty good
The plastic trims in both D3 & RR are a bit on the low quality side but I'm sure that's liveable. noticed that on the few I've looked at but no real options, anway live with ok

My pick would be the Td6 RR.this is my pick also the only real D3 advantage is the & seat option, current disco is 7 seater and while we only have 2 kids we use a 6th / 7th seat approx once a week so without it means 2 cars,
I have heard of aftermarket 7 seat for new RR anyone know where / who ??
thanks
J

[spudboy]

Just been through a similar decision process. Ended up with a relatively high KM 2003 Range Rover Vogue HSE Diesel (100,000Km so not ridiculously high) for which I paid $58K. Actually my company paid for it....

It is still under new car warranty which I used in the first week I had it to fix up a few minor things like the computer display with broken pixels and crazed paint on the door handles from too much sun. It is also still covered by Land Rover assist for another 18 months.

It is truly a fabulous vehicle for cruising and going out and about. Pretty heavy around corners so it's no sports car, but gets up and goes very nicely. We went away in it for Easter. HUGE boot and back seats for all the gear. Highway cruising returned 8.9L/100 (over 400Km of mixed driving) and some dirt track driving returned 9.2L/100 which is brilliant.

They are magic on dirt roads and pretty good in sand considering how heavy they are.

Any more questions, just ask.
Cheers
David

[spudboy]

Also - I forgot to say what a sweet engine the 3.0L straight six is. Heaps of grunt (for a diesel anyway) and miles better than my TD5. The gearbox is smooth as anything and being able to drive it like a "manual" with the tip-tronic is a bonus.

Also also - I was very impressed with the level of service from Land Rover on the warranty issues. They didn't haggle and they even fixed something which I thought would have been a wear and tear item. Can't speak highly enough of of the good service they provided, especially after the general level of bad reports dealers usually get on this forum.

[Scouse]

Ball joints - not overly expensive from what I've seen but wearing at 30-40k is a somewhat unusual problem that we see a bit of.

Auto transmission - the biggest issue seems to be that they're "filled for life". A few around the 100000km mark have overheated the transmission badly. I'm sure that 40000km oil/filter changes would go a long way to help.

Front diff - you've seen the fix (aftermarket, not Land Rover) ?

[jase]

below

Ball joints - not overly expensive from what I've seen but wearing at 30-40k is a somewhat unusual problem that we see a bit of. tht's ok I'm used to high maint I've owned LR's for the last 10 yrs :mad:

Auto transmission - the biggest issue seems to be that they're "filled for life". A few around the 100000km mark have overheated the transmission badly. I'm sure that 40000km oil/filter changes would go a long way to help. not a bog fan of sealed for life autos (should be called sealed for "much reduced" life

Front diff - you've seen the fix (aftermarket, not Land Rover) ?
LR fix is just an alignment "tweek" isn't it?
I've seen the US? aftermarket one with a second uni in the front,
don't know anyone who has done 100,000kms on one but
J

[spudboy]

Yeah - mines done over 100,000 on the original front diff.

I was a bit surprised seeing as it's such a big issue over in the states and I know someone else in Adelaide who's had a new diff at 40,000Km.

[Scouse]

The alignment & greasing is good for a while, then the same problem rears it's head.
They're up to version 8 of the bulletin :eek: .

[spudboy]

I'm going to get my front diff check out by an independent LR place before the warranty runs out. Apparently you can see the wear on diffs that are not aligned properly and LR will replace before they go bang.

[jase]

let me know how you go with this
if I get replaced under LR warranty then fit the US "kit" maybe it would be ok ???

I can see the issue with the shaft and why they (they kit people) fitted the second uni (really bad, bad design by LR :( ) but I worry that they just did it "to fix it" without any real engineering or R&D ??
I would have though a rubber donut (like in disco rear tailshft) may have been a better option the a uni (more flexible)

Jase


I'm going to get my front diff check out by an independent LR place before the warranty runs out. Apparently you can see the wear on diffs that are not aligned properly and LR will replace before they go bang.

[Outlaw]

Hopefully Drivesafe will chime in as i know he's had a few issues with his RR and it's got high mileage... but all fixed and still loving it

[camel_landy]

The older L322 RaRo has had problems with the air pump for the suspension but IIRC there was a recall to replace those. Some people have had front diff problems but I tend to take most reports of problems with a pinch of salt... i.e. if someone has a problem, they'll shout it out loud. If everything is fine, no-one says a thing. It doesn't help that the LR brand has such a fanatical following!

So far, I've not heard of many problems with the D3/RRS. The only one that bugs me every now & then is that the hand brake needs regular servicing if used extensively off-road. If you learn to drive without the handbrake, it makes life a lot easier.

If it were my money... I'd be going for a D3 or RRS TDV6 AUTO. ;)

M

[Scouse]

Some people have had front diff problems but I tend to take most reports of problems with a pinch of salt... i.e. if someone has a problem, they'll shout it out loud. If everything is fine, no-one says a thing. It doesn't help that the LR brand has such a fanatical following!We've done approx 25-30 in the last 2 1/2 years. I'd call that a problem :( . A Bl00dy expensive one too if it's not under warranty.


So far, I've not heard of many problems with the D3/RRS. The only one that bugs me every now & then is that the hand brake needs regular servicing if used extensively off-road. If you learn to drive without the handbrake, it makes life a lot easier.Unfortunately, using the handbrake offroad has no relevance to the problem. The problem is that the drum fills up with dirt/mud & chews the shoes out. That's why the manual specifies the drum/shoes to be cleaned after use off road.

[spudboy]

Scouse - what are the symptoms to look out for with the front diff? From what I've read on US sites, most of the owners say they had no idea until it went bang that anything was wrong. Surely it must make some noise or something before it lets go?

[Scouse]

I can't say I know of any symptoms. We get the RR's straight from the tilt tray :( .

I would imagine a 6 monthly check would show any spline wear before it actually stripped completely. You could then regrease the splines at the same time & it might last a lot longer.

[BigJon]

We've done approx 25-30 in the last 2 1/2 years. I'd call that a problem :( . A Bl00dy expensive one too if it's not under warranty.


We haven't done any of them...:p

[jase]

Hey big John, how many "new" Rangies live up alice?
if they live ok up there I should be ok down here :D
one problem is wife likes driving the dirt roads :( she happlily do 50kms of dirt (and pretty bad dirt roads) to save 1-2 mins off the "stick to the blacktop" time :mad: (one of her fave "short cuts" is 20kms of crappy dirt road vs 25kms of blacktop I've timed them both and even pushing it on the dirt vs blacktop at speed limit she wont save 1 minute :twisted: )
I keep telling her "the dirt roads are fine, IF there is no other way or it saves a LOT of time but all these unessacery dirt kms cause heaps of wear and tear on the car" she doesn't listens and keeps doing it :( cause she doesn't have to fix it, I do :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
(plus it makes the car dirty :( and she doesn't wash it either :twisted: )

Jase


We haven't done any of them...:p

[BigJon]

In the last 3 years we have had three here. One is now owned by Spudboy in Adelaide. One is near brand new to replace that one and the other is still here, has been since new.

[camel_landy]

Unfortunately, using the handbrake offroad has no relevance to the problem.

Yes it does... If you don't use the hand brake, you don't get that horrible graunching noise & you don't get error messages & lights on the dash - See... No problem. :D :D

:angel:

M

[Disco95]

Would be interested in hearing more on RRS issues IF ther are any.
Thje better half is looking in this direction.
Gotta be a better choice than the the Prado:mad:
But Prado winson the $$$$$ side.

[Graeme]

<snip>
Unfortunately, using the handbrake offroad has no relevance to the problem. The problem is that the drum fills up with dirt/mud & chews the shoes out. That's why the manual specifies the drum/shoes to be cleaned after use off road.

Is this a worse version of the D2's handbrake? The D2 has a hole in the front of the backing plate and another in the top lip? Both of mine are blocked with silicone as my 1st D2 when very new filled with dirt and chewed the linings which contributed to it running away downhill unattended twice. The 1st time my wife tried to get back in and was in danger of being run over by the back wheel.

[camel_landy]

Completely different.

Unlike previous Discos, the hand brake on D3 actually operates a pair of small drum brakes mounted in the rear hubs...

FWIW... You should always park a Landy in in gear (or 'P').

M

[Studio54]

eerrr have Land Rover put up the price of D3 recently or do brand new ones start at $63K still?? Why are you thinking second hand if the budget is between 60 to 70K?....

If you have the dollars, always go the Range Rover. :)

[Scouse]

Is this a worse version of the D2's handbrake? Much worse IMO :mad: .
It's fine for everyday use but it does clog up with dirt/mud when used off road which eats the shoes.

Also, being electrically operated & being in a Land Rover.......well, you know where I'm heading :twisted: .

[spudboy]

The RR Vogue handbrake isn't electrical at all. Normal old lever.

I expect the RR Sport is electric 'cause it'll be the same as the Discovery, but I haven't driven one so don't really know.

[camel_landy]

I expect the RR Sport is electric 'cause it'll be the same as the Discovery, but I haven't driven one so don't really know.

Yeah... Exactly the same.

M

[jase]

for petrol
add diesel & by time you add the extras your talking $80+k
for the same car you can buy 18mths old for 60k
I'm sick of new cars dumping value so have vowed to only buy 2nd hand and let someone else swallow the "dump"

anyway I do prefer the RR :) only D3+ is the 7 seats

Jase


eerrr have Land Rover put up the price of D3 recently or do brand new ones start at $63K still?? Why are you thinking second hand if the budget is between 60 to 70K?....

If you have the dollars, always go the Range Rover. :)

[drivesafe]

Scouse - what are the symptoms to look out for with the front diff? From what I've read on US sites, most of the owners say they had no idea until it went bang that anything was wrong. Surely it must make some noise or something before it lets go?

Depends on your luck.

My first front diff went at 40,000 and so was under warranty. When it went, there was no indication and no noise as it actually gave way, but as soon as I put my foot on the accelerator there was the sound of a jet engine powering up. Even played it over the phone to the LR tech.

The second time, I was driving along and over a few days, I was getting a squealing sound that was getting louder as each day passed and gave my dealer a call and he wanted to have the RR as soon as possible, so I went there straight away.

He came for a test drive and could hear the noise. Back at the workshop, he had a look around the engine and said he thinks it might be an idler arm pulley going and got me to leave it with him and my wife picked me up.

By the time she drove me home, as we walked in the front door the phone was ringing and it was the tech and he informed me that it was another front diff. This time I had 160,000 clocked up.

Even though the RR was out of warranty ( which I didn’t know ), LR picked up the bill.

Same couldn’t be said about the transmission, that just cost me $6,000.

Would I buy another RR, absolutely.

Cheers

[drivesafe]

Would be interested in hearing more on RRS issues IF ther are any.
Thje better half is looking in this direction.
Gotta be a better choice than the the Prado:mad:
But Prado winson the $$$$$ side.

The RRS is a far better vehicle than the toy ploder

BUT

If your after a second hand RRS, get a second hand MkIII RR, it’s a much better vehicle and will be around the same price as the cheaper when new RRS.

If your thinking of buying a new RRS then seriously consider the D3, much better value and a much more realistic 4x4.

I’m so ****ed off with RRSs that I don’t want one when they give me a loner when ever I take one of mine in for a service, rather have a D3 as a loner.

Cheers.

[jase]

thanks drivesafe
how many Kms have you done in your RR now?

the big RR is 80% what we'll get :cool:
disco scores 10% cause we can get a 7 seat (those extra seats come in handy)
RRS scores 10% casue she like the way it looks :wasntme:

Jase

[jase]

.....

Depends on your luck.


Same couldn’t be said about the transmission, that just cost me $6,000.
did you ever do oil changes on auto or just follow LR service schedule?

Would I buy another RR, absolutely. if you can ignore the repair bills (like above) why would you drive anything else ;)
Jase

Cheers

[p38arover]

anyway I do prefer the RR :) only D3+ is the 7 seats

There's a mob (Black T Auto) in Melbourne doing 7 seat conversions to the RRS. I note they also say

"Forward facing 7 seat option for Range Rover Vogue, HSE and SE"

See item no. 110112979690

Ron

[drivesafe]

Hi jase, as far as the transmission goes, I drove the RR VERY hard while towing a fully loaded trailer on a number of trips between Sydney and the GC and I have now paid the price.

As for the rest, LRA now has an attitude that the customer IS right and they are doing their best to look after us.

The reverse seems to be the case with other makes, particularly Toyota.

I’m going to wait about 12 months and then see how good the TDV8 RR is going and then get one.

[noddy]

I’m going to wait about 12 months and then see how good the TDV8 RR is going and then get one.

Will be interesting to see how the transmission handles 650Nm with the TDV8;)

What changes have they made?

[jase]

thanks Ron
looks good only drawback 36kg weight limit????
I'll checkout if "big" RR is same
Jase


There's a mob (Black T Auto) in Melbourne doing 7 seat conversions to the RRS. I note they also say

"Forward facing 7 seat option for Range Rover Vogue, HSE and SE"

See item no. 110112979690

Ron

[Graeme]

Completely different.

Unlike previous Discos, the hand brake on D3 actually operates a pair of small drum brakes mounted in the rear hubs...

FWIW... You should always park a Landy in in gear (or 'P').

M

Not reasonable to turn-off a turbo engine twice to go through a gate just after a fast run on a hot day - vehicle was a manual and the handbrake was fully applied each time.

[Jamo]

Scouse, what's with the ball joint problem?. I've done 84000km (June 05 build) and no probs. My suspension issue was the well known geometry issue as covered by TSB LA204-009V2 Dynamic Suspension Geometry Setting Mode and TSB LA204-008V2 Uneven Tyre Wear.

May be it's older vehicles than mine.

No problems with the park brake either, except it can get sand in it on a beach run).

[Scouse]

Scouse, what's with the ball joint problem?. I've done 84000km (June 05 build) and no probs. My suspension issue was the well known geometry issue as covered by TSB LA204-009V2 Dynamic Suspension Geometry Setting Mode and TSB LA204-008V2 Uneven Tyre Wear.

May be it's older vehicles than mine.

No problems with the park brake either, except it can get sand in it on a beach run).We've had quite a few front suspension knock complaints.
There are often a few causes (lots of lower column shafts & the odd rack ) but many have been badly worn lower suspension arm ball joints. Some are worn alarmingly with approx 5mm movement while others have barely perceptible movement. The age of the car or km travelled doesn't seem to matter. We've done ball joints on low km city cars (30000km) & high km country cars (80000km).
I don't know what's causing this abnormal wear & I don't know if LR are investigating it - I hope UK are. It might be a design issue, it might be a material issue. Hopefully it might be limited to a batch but I don't think so...

From what I've seen, the handbrake issue is due to mud driving. We have one car that get used off road that's always coming in for a handbrake problem. It's had at least 2 complete actuator assemblies that have burnt out (and locked on the handbrake on one occasion) & a few drum cleanouts, adjustments & a shoe set replacement.

[Scouse]

The RR Vogue handbrake isn't electrical at all. Normal old lever.

Guess what's in the 07 :( .

[Jamo]

Thanks Scott. I didn't have the steering knock issue that some others have had (even though I do a lot of rough driving). I was just interested 'cause I'm getting close to end or warranty and want to make sure I cover everything.

Could this be an issue exacerbated by failing to set the geometry correctly. I know owners who've had weheel alignments done at the local tyre shop, but without putting the car into the setting mode it's a waste of time.

Still, I'll add ball joints to my things-to-be-checked list for the next service.

[camel_landy]

Thanks Scott. I didn't have the steering knock issue that some others have had (even though I do a lot of rough driving). I was just interested 'cause I'm getting close to end or warranty and want to make sure I cover everything.

Could this be an issue exacerbated by failing to set the geometry correctly. I know owners who've had weheel alignments done at the local tyre shop, but without putting the car into the setting mode it's a waste of time.

Still, I'll add ball joints to my things-to-be-checked list for the next service.

Steering 'knock' on the RRS can actually be caused by a faulty anti-roll bar.

M

[Scouse]

Steering 'knock' on the RRS can actually be caused by a faulty anti-roll bar.

MYes, the bushes can creak when new(ish) & also can knock with a few k's under their belt.

[p38arover]

We've done ball joints on low km city cars (30000km) & high km country cars (80000km).
I don't know what's causing this abnormal wear & I don't know if LR are investigating it - I hope UK are. It might be a design issue, it might be a material issue. Hopefully it might be limited to a batch but I don't think so....

Reminds me of the original Ford Falcon of the Sixties. The suspension ball joints weren't up to Australian conditions and had to be redesigned.

Ron

[camel_landy]

Yes, the bushes can creak when new(ish) & also can knock with a few k's under their belt.

Or if you bugger it while off-road... :angel:

[p38arover]

Depends on your luck.

My first front diff went at 40,000 and so was under warranty. When it went, there was no indication and no noise as it actually gave way, but as soon as I put my foot on the accelerator there was the sound of a jet engine powering up. Even played it over the phone to the LR tech.

The second time, I was driving along and over a few days, I was getting a squealing sound that was getting louder as each day passed and gave my dealer a call and he wanted to have the RR as soon as possible, so I went there straight away.

He came for a test drive and could hear the noise. Back at the workshop, he had a look around the engine and said he thinks it might be an idler arm pulley going and got me to leave it with him and my wife picked me up.

By the time she drove me home, as we walked in the front door the phone was ringing and it was the tech and he informed me that it was another front diff. This time I had 160,000 clocked up.

NHTSA Begins Investigation of Range Rover Front Diff Failures - see http://rangerovers.net/rrnews.html#nhtsa


Make: LAND ROVER Model: RANGE ROVER Year: 2002 NHTSA Action Number: PE07019 Summary: ODI HAS RECEIVED 38 VEHICLE OWNER QUESTIONNAIRES (VOQS) ALLEGING FAILURE OF THE FRONT DRIVE SHAFT AND/OR THE FRONT AXLE DIFFERENTIAL. MANY OF THE COMPLAINANTS ALLEGE THAT THE FAILURE RESULTS IN A LOSS OF VEHICLE PROPULSION AND SUBSEQUENT VEHICLE IMMOBILIZATION. SEVENTEEN OF THE COMPLAINTS ALLEGE THAT THE FAILURE OCCURRED WHILE DRIVING AT SPEEDS GREATER THAN 40 MPH. SIXTEEN OF THE COMPLAINANTS ALLEGE THE VEHICLE REQUIRED TOWING AS A RESULT OF THE FAILURES. ADDITIONALLY, EIGHT OF THE COMPLAINANTS ALLEGE THAT THEY EXPERIENCED TWO FAILURES OF THE FRONT DIFFERENTIAL AND/OR FRONT DRIVESHAFT. A PRELIMINARY EVALUATION HAS BEEN OPENED TO ASSESS THE SCOPE, FREQUENCY AND SAFETY CONSEQUENCES OF THE ALLEGED DEFECT.


Ron

[drivesafe]

Thanks Ron, the findings should be VERY interesting.

I have no complaints about the way LRA have handled the replacement of both my failed front diffs but it still doesn’t help the confidence side of things when considering a long trip somewhere.

Cheers.

[WhiteD3]

ok
the time has come to buy the wife a car :( (it's been coming for a while)
Her B'day is coming up and I may as well get the brownie points :angel: & the new car (and save buying another presant)
Rather than stall her another month, make her grumpy :( and have to buy a presant as well as a car :( (well it makes sence to me)
So going to go all out and spend big bucks so this one has to last for a few years = 200,000kms without killing me on repair bills
I've been looking around for the last month and for about the same money ($60-70k) I can get a 4 year old RR or a 2 year old disco 3
(a RRS is more $ due to newer age and the higher new cost so probably wont happen although it's her fave)
I know what I prefer (the big Rangie :cool: ) and I know pros / cons of the different models re features, functions, size ect
but for purely relaibility, doing high kms anyone (esp those who work at stealers) have any feedback good or bad
note they would be second hand (current shape) and DIESEL varients

feedback appreciated
thanks
Jase

Jase,

I've just gone through all the math on this and bought a D3 V6SE last month. $64k (in white only) on the road. 3 year warranty with road assist and 3 years free servicing. 12l/100km hwy, 16.5l/100km city. You get the air suspension, leather, 7 seats (won't get that on a Rangie), climate, etc.

A great car and the price of the diesel is just too much to swallow.

My 2 cents worth.

Mark

[drivesafe]

A great car and the price of the diesel is just too much to swallow.

Mark

Exactly why I went with the V6SE.

Cheers