Wheel bearings, Stub axles and Ignorance

[DiscoDave]

Driving back from an 'interesting' recce for next weekends LROC tuff trip I'd, fortunately, left the freeway intending to take the scenic way home when it felt like something had hit the back of the Disco and I lost power. Slowed down, checked the engine was still running, applied right foot, everything seemed normal. A few seconds later it happened again so I pulled over expecting to see a burst tyre. Everything looks normal until I noticed a whiff of smoke coming from behind the nearside rear wheel. Inspection revealed the hub was not rotating smoothly at all and I figured the bearings were gone but at 4pm on a Sunday I couldn't think where to get any from and ended up transporting the Disco home on a tilt-tray. ($$$)
Dismantling the hub, oil seal and bearings showed the stub-axle to be a little mangled round the edges but probably usable (see photo) and I borrowed transport to drive to Karcraft and get replacements. After loads of advice, via email, from Scouse I rinsed the new bearings in kerro, let them dry, packed them with grease, fitted the inner one and the oil seal into the hub and couldn't get it on to the stub-axle.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/04/91.jpg
After a lot of swearing and banging things with hammers I realised why it wouldn't go on and today I've successfully removed the mangled inner race from the stub axle by splitting it in half. The surface it left behind wasn't too good but with the aplication of a fine toothed file and some 200 grade sandpaper it's come back to smooth(ish) again. I've pushed an old inner race on to it a few times and it's a little tight but can be removed by hand so I figure it will do.

Any comments on re-using the stub-axle? If it's no good where's the best place to get an ABS compatible one near Sydney? Is getting one from a wreckers okay? What should I look for to determine if it's not okay?

[Blknight.aus]

without getting up close and personal.. DONT USE IT (not as is anyway)

Take it to a machine shop, have them lathe it back then manufacture an insert that needs to be pressed or heat expanded on,

While (atm) it may be hunky dory by hand with the weight of a rover on it you will get race flex, thats badm They will work for a while but they will go pearshaped very very quickly.(think speedy sleeves on steroids)


That said, if you have to use it it will work as a stop gap but source a repaired one or a new one asap. This is one of the good things about landys everything is overengineered enough to allow you to make repairs or limp home on damaged items...

[DiscoDave]

So if I put the new bearings on this one to drive around to get a replacement (say 150Km) are you saying the bearings will be ruined?

[sclarke]

Dont get it machined.
Get a new one of a good 2nd hand one from the wreckers.

[DiscoDave]

Dont get it machined.
Get a new one of a good 2nd hand one from the wreckers.

Can you tell me what to look for to know I'm getting a good one? (How much should I expect to pay?)

[DRanged]

Can you tell me what to look for to know I'm getting a good one? (How much should I expect to pay?)


IMO when it comes to things like stub axles, new is the only replacement. You were lucky it was a rear. Give Peter at Range Parts a call on 02 9896 2355.

Justin

[Blknight.aus]

So if I put the new bearings on this one to drive around to get a replacement (say 150Km) are you saying the bearings will be ruined?

nope longer term than that...

Its one of those things that could last 6 months of normal driving to 600 years...

your going to find that getting it machined properly will probabley cost more than buying the replacement, but sometimes its quicker...

IF your only going slow and easy the bearings will hold out on the one youve filed providing its not too far out of whack and the backing support for locating the bearing is still in good nick...


dont risk it for longer than you have to and then put it in the parts box as a spare for when you really kill one

[DiscoDave]

nope longer term than that...

Its one of those things that could last 6 months of normal driving to 600 years...

your going to find that getting it machined properly will probabley cost more than buying the replacement, but sometimes its quicker...

IF your only going slow and easy the bearings will hold out on the one youve filed providing its not too far out of whack and the backing support for locating the bearing is still in good nick...


dont risk it for longer than you have to and then put it in the parts box as a spare for when you really kill one

Thanks BK, I appreciate your expert comments.
Machining is out because I just know they will turn around and ask me some question I have no idea about, like what should the finished diameter be, what hardness of steel should be used, etc. etc.

I'm not going slow and easy - I want to drive up the F3 next weekend!

So I'm looking for a "good" second hand, ABS compatible, rear stub axle.
I've had one suggestion for a source. Any others?

[jimbo110]

The picture shows the stub axle with the old stuffed bearing inner race still on, what does the stub look like with the old race removed? It will probably be fine , but the sealing surface for the hub seal may need a tidy up, hard to tell with the old bearing race still there. If the part of the stub where the inner bearing sits is not chewed up and the new bearing slides on ok, all is fine. Really need a pic with the race removed.

[DiscoDave]

Well here is a pic...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/04/89.jpg
... I swear it doesn't look that bad to the naked eye!
A bearing inner race will push on about 3/4 of the way by hand then it needs to be (gently) tapped home as it tightens up a bit, but it can still be pulled off by hand.

[jimbo110]

I would use it, if another one came up cheap in the future, replace it then, but I wouldn't have have any problems using that one.

[George130]

Damn. Good luck with the repair. Pitty it didn't go up at Ace's with the guys there it would have been inspected and fixed in no time.

[camel_landy]

I would use it, if another one came up cheap in the future, replace it then, but I wouldn't have have any problems using that one.

Don't forget that there's an oil seal there too.... If that inner face is pitted, the seal could wear faster than expected and/or leak. If you need something now, use it.

If it were me, I'd probably fit a second hand one from the breakers and then tidy that one up for the spares box (but then I'm a fussy bugger...).

M

[DiscoDave]

Thanks for your comment Jimbo, that helps me get a better idea of what's good and what's bad. :)
Yeah Edd, Ace and the crowd have a way of conjuring parts out of apparently thin air!
Camel_Landy - could you expand on "tidy that one up"?

[Blknight.aus]

well that doesnt look as bad as Id feared (got to play devils advocate in the event of lack of info/pics) Id refit that but pack the oil seal with a good grease to help it seal...(this might be the time to pack the bearings with grease as well if yours are setup to run oil, the oil will still get to them but the grease will save the seal and in the event of failure give you a fighting chance of catching it before total failure.

Id have one ordered in and would be checking the wheel bearing temps at every stop and inspecting the inside of the wheel for oil/thrown grease.

at least once a week (assuming 500km per week) id prop the back wheel and check it for float.

as for getting it machined take the bearing you want to run on it to the machine shop and simpley tell them you want it lathed back then sleeved to run this bearing.

to me it looks like the inner race of the inner bearing has overheated and expended then turned, grabbed and slowly worked its way round till it wedged on at a slight angle and then the inner bearing has procceded to eat itself.

if the outer bearing face was as bad as the inner ID be more cautious about using it.

What is ringing some alarm bells for me is the damage to the leading edge of the sealing surface that aint normal..

Freebie tip.. IF you have a good digital camera that has a macro setting

when inspecting bearings or other parts set your camera up for max optical zoom on macro shooting with the flash off and on the highest resolution it can do, Use strong sunlight or even incandescant lighting take a pic and the look at it on the computer, you'll be amazed at how much you can see.

[jimbo110]

Don't forget that there's an oil seal there too.... If that inner face is pitted, the seal could wear faster than expected and/or leak. If you need something now, use it.

If it were me, I'd probably fit a second hand one from the breakers and then tidy that one up for the spares box (but then I'm a fussy bugger...).

M

The seal runs on a different surface to the bearing (the next one up, the larger diameter one) a rub with emery will clean that up. I replace my hub seals and repack the bearings yearly, is that not normal? The seal should at least last that long. (maybe I'm a fussy bugger too):p

[camel_landy]

The seal runs on a different surface to the bearing (the next one up, the larger diameter one) a rub with emery will clean that up. I replace my hub seals and repack the bearings yearly, is that not normal? The seal should at least last that long. (maybe I'm a fussy bugger too):p

Like Dave, there's a bit of 'devils advocate' going on here as the photo isn't showing us everything that we could see if we had the part in our hands.

As for the lip that the seal runs on... If there's nothin more than a couple of light dings then I agree that a rub with the emery would probably do. However, if a grove has been worn, heavy pitting/scoring then I'd probably look at fitting something else. Something has happened to that leading edge...

M

PS... Queenstown eh?? Gotta say that my missus cr@pped herself when we went over that tiny suspension bridge. :angel:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/01/341.jpg

[camel_landy]

Camel_Landy - could you expand on "tidy that one up"?

Have a quick look at my previous post re-devils advocate...

If decided that it's too worn/damaged for everyday use, just run some emery over it. Smooth down any damaged faces so that there's nothing sharp when running your fingers around it.

M

[DiscoDave]

well that doesnt look as bad as Id feared (got to play devils advocate in the event of lack of info/pics) Id refit that but pack the oil seal with a good grease to help it seal...(this might be the time to pack the bearings with grease as well if yours are setup to run oil, the oil will still get to them but the grease will save the seal and in the event of failure give you a fighting chance of catching it before total failure.

Id have one ordered in and would be checking the wheel bearing temps at every stop and inspecting the inside of the wheel for oil/thrown grease.

at least once a week (assuming 500km per week) id prop the back wheel and check it for float.

as for getting it machined take the bearing you want to run on it to the machine shop and simpley tell them you want it lathed back then sleeved to run this bearing.

to me it looks like the inner race of the inner bearing has overheated and expended then turned, grabbed and slowly worked its way round till it wedged on at a slight angle and then the inner bearing has procceded to eat itself.

if the outer bearing face was as bad as the inner ID be more cautious about using it.

What is ringing some alarm bells for me is the damage to the leading edge of the sealing surface that aint normal.
Thanks again for your tips BK. Mine is original greased bearings - maybe that's part of the problem?
The leading edge got damaged as the inner race was beaten over it and with me filing off some burrs.


As for the lip that the seal runs on... If there's nothin more than a couple of light dings then I agree that a rub with the emery would probably do. However, if a grove has been worn, heavy pitting/scoring then I'd probably look at fitting something else. Something has happened to that leading edge...


There are no dings or (visible) grooves in the part that the oil seal runs on. The damage to the leading edge is due to the inner race being beaten so it folded over that slightly and to me trying to file off any burrs. Once it's on the seal doesn't contact the edge though, so far as I can tell.

[camel_landy]

There are no dings or (visible) grooves in the part that the oil seal runs on. The damage to the leading edge is due to the inner race being beaten so it folded over that slightly and to me trying to file off any burrs. Once it's on the seal doesn't contact the edge though, so far as I can tell.

In that case... Use a bit of emery to finish off where you've been at it with the file and re-assemble.

M

[Blknight.aus]

The seal runs on a different surface to the bearing (the next one up, the larger diameter one) a rub with emery will clean that up. I replace my hub seals and repack the bearings yearly, is that not normal? The seal should at least last that long. (maybe I'm a fussy bugger too):p


depends how many ks your doing....

Mine get a caps off inspect every 25k km, and replaced at 50k,km Ujs are on the same intervals for replacemnet atm, the deefers not eating them as much as my series rovers used to (but then they got hammered offroad and for fording)

[jimbo110]

the part the seal runs on is a replaceable collar (on my old disco anyway) but with a clean up that one should be fine, just radius the square shoulder of the seal collar slightly so the new seal doesn't get buggered when you slide the hub onto the stub:D

[jimbo110]

depends how many ks your doing....

Mine get a caps off inspect every 25k km, and replaced at 50k,km Ujs are on the same intervals for replacemnet atm, the deefers not eating them as much as my series rovers used to (but then they got hammered offroad and for fording)

Water is a killer, grease is your best friend!

[DiscoDave]

In that case... Use a bit of emery to finish off where you've been at it with the file and re-assemble.

M
Okay, thanks 'M'. :) I'm assuming emery = fine sandpaper say 400 wetndry?


the part the seal runs on is a replaceable collar...
I'm 99% sure it's all one piece. But that doesn't mean much.


...just radius the square shoulder of the seal collar slightly...
You're getting a bit technical for me but I think I get the idea.:)

[Ace]

Hi dave, that one looks fine, landychicks was the same and we cleaned it up and back on it went. The oil/grease seal runs on the shoulder above where the bearing taps back to, is that surface damaged? If it is smooth it back as suggested so the oil/grease seal doesnt wear prematurely.

Emery paper is like sand paper, but its a dark brown colour and is used on metal, black we/dry paper will do the same job. Matt

How did they get like that, how long has it been since they were greased/checked?

[Ace]

Oh, its not a replacable collar on the disco its all one peice as you said dave.

[DiscoDave]

Hi dave, that one looks fine, landychicks was the same and we cleaned it up and back on it went. The oil/grease seal runs on the shoulder above where the bearing taps back to, is that surface damaged? If it is smooth it back as suggested so the oil/grease seal doesnt wear prematurely.

Emery paper is like sand paper, but its a dark brown colour and is used on metal, black we/dry paper will do the same job. Matt

How did they get like that, how long has it been since they were greased/checked?

Thanks for the explanation Matt. :)
The rear wheel bearings were re-greased by myself back in November when my mechanic warned me of water contamination in all the hubs. He did the front hubs and I did the rears but as you can tell I didn't really know all the things to look out for and may not have packed the bearings well enough. When I took the hub apart there was still evidence of water getting in (rust on the hub lock nut) but I had only used the paper gasket - this time I've used the paper gasket and a bead of gasket sealant.
The other side was swimming in diff oil so I've re-greased those bearings as well and replaced the hub oil seal. I didn't have a stub-axle oil seal so it will just have to do. Topped up the diff and I'm rolling again! :)

After a 25Km trip this afternoon both rear hubs are warm, ~45C at the axle flanges, but that could be coming from the disc brakes which were warmer.
Now all I have to do is work out why my power steering pump pulley is moving out of alignment and chewing the drive belt and things will be back to normal.

[abaddonxi]

Thanks for the explanation Matt. :)
The rear wheel bearings were re-greased by myself back in November when my mechanic warned me of water contamination in all the hubs. He did the front hubs and I did the rears but as you can tell I didn't really know all the things to look out for and may not have packed the bearings well enough. When I took the hub apart there was still evidence of water getting in (rust on the hub lock nut) but I had only used the paper gasket - this time I've used the paper gasket and a bead of gasket sealant.
The other side was swimming in diff oil so I've re-greased those bearings as well and replaced the hub oil seal. I didn't have a stub-axle oil seal so it will just have to do. Topped up the diff and I'm rolling again! :)

After a 25Km trip this afternoon both rear hubs are warm, ~45C at the axle flanges, but that could be coming from the disc brakes which were warmer.
Now all I have to do is work out why my power steering pump pulley is moving out of alignment and chewing the drive belt and things will be back to normal.

Could it be that you didn't seat the bearing completely when you put it on then tightened down on it with the bearing skew to the cup?

Cheers
Simon

[DiscoDave]

Could it be that you didn't seat the bearing completely when you put it on then tightened down on it with the bearing skew to the cup?

Cheers
Simon
It's possible I suppose but the wheel rotated freely enough at the time and gave me no problems for 5 months. I've realised I'd been wondering about the amount of 'road noise' I'd been hearing for a few days before the bearing packed up so that must have been it on the way out.

[abaddonxi]

It's possible I suppose but the wheel rotated freely enough at the time and gave me no problems for 5 months. I've realised I'd been wondering about the amount of 'road noise' I'd been hearing for a few days before the bearing packed up so that must have been it on the way out.

That isn't it, then. Must've et themselves up.

Cheers
Simon

[Bush65]

Most rolling bearings fail due to contamination or poor lubrication. Good bearing life in the sort of environment that a 4wd wheel is exposed to, depends on good sealing.

Other failures can be due to poor assembly practice, such as over tightening (bearings need clearance), or too much grease (which leads to overheating).

IMHO the journal for the inner seal is in poor condition. See pic which I have enhanced to correct the exposure. And as Dave has said, the corner that the seal has to fit over is damaged and is likely to damage the seal lip when the hub is fitted.

There have been several threads on this forum, where converting the bearings to oil lubrication is discussed, along with the reasons for doing so. Since rover changed to grease lubrication and dust seals in place of decent oil seals, wheel bearings fail much more often.

[DiscoDave]

Other failures can be due to poor assembly practice, such as over tightening (bearings need clearance), or too much grease (which leads to overheating).


Now I'm confused again - how can you put too much grease in the wheel bearings? I thought the whole idea was to stuff the things full of it, plus some on the oil seal, plus some more on the stub axle?

[Reads90]

I don't know how much they are here but this is what you can buy one in the Uk for and get shipped over
http://www.land-rover-parts-shop.com/shop/en/browse/Discovery+1/3/1998/15/55/129/100121

[DiscoDave]

Thanks Reads. :) (That means they'll be about $150 each here) :P

[Reads90]

Thanks Reads. :) (That means they'll be about $150 each here) :P


I don't know of that is good or not as i have two brand new ones in the back of the 90 (which i bought in the Uk). So i have never looked at them here so don't know how much they are

[rick130]

the part the seal runs on is a replaceable collar (on my old disco anyway) but with a clean up that one should be fine, just radius the square shoulder of the seal collar slightly so the new seal doesn't get buggered when you slide the hub onto the stub:D

sounds like someone has installed a Speedi-sleeve.
Usually installed when the seal surface is R/S. Have one on the rear RHS stub axle otherwise the oil goes ta ta's

[jimbo110]

sounds like someone has installed a Speedi-sleeve.
Usually installed when the seal surface is R/S. Have one on the rear RHS stub axle otherwise the oil goes ta ta's
I'm probably confusing it with the series 3 I had at the same time, It had the replacable collar on the stub. Its just typical that the newer ones are throw away items when they get worn (or speedi sleeve). Mind you it could be a strength issue, when the collar was removed (about 6mm thick) the stub looked very skinney :eek:

[Blknight.aus]

Now I'm confused again - how can you put too much grease in the wheel bearings? I thought the whole idea was to stuff the things full of it, plus some on the oil seal, plus some more on the stub axle?


If you use really thick grease or extra high temp grease its easy enough to do..

but gp grease IMho you can never have too much grease...

The problems come when the grease traps the heat.

[Bush65]

Now I'm confused again - how can you put too much grease in the wheel bearings? I thought the whole idea was to stuff the things full of it, plus some on the oil seal, plus some more on the stub axle?
From an SKF bearing manual:

... In general the free space in the bearing housing should only be partly filled with grease (30 to 50%). Overfilling causes rapid temperature rise particularly if speeds are high. Suitable initial grease fill for bearings mounted in SKF bearing housings are given in the table section "Bearing housings".

Where bearings are to operate at slow speeds, good protection against corrosion may be obtained by filling the housing completely with grease.

The limiting speeds for grease lubricated bearings are listed in the bearing tables (see also section entitled "Limiting speeds").

In the case of bearings overfilled with grease the heat is mostly due to the bearing rollers having to "pump" the excess grease out from between the roller and the races and cage.

Petroleum based greases are made from oil emulsified with metal soaps. Some greases use a percentage of water with the metallic soap for emulsification, and because of this, the emulsification will break down when the temperature gets to high - resulting in loss of the lubricating oil through seals that aren't suitable for oil retention.

[jimbo110]

Like Dave, there's a bit of 'devils advocate' going on here as the photo isn't showing us everything that we could see if we had the part in our hands.

As for the lip that the seal runs on... If there's nothin more than a couple of light dings then I agree that a rub with the emery would probably do. However, if a grove has been worn, heavy pitting/scoring then I'd probably look at fitting something else. Something has happened to that leading edge...

M

PS... Queenstown eh?? Gotta say that my missus cr@pped herself when we went over that tiny suspension bridge. :angel:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2008/01/341.jpg

matches the main road..........:p