Series I Info

[Guru036]

G'day all.

I have just purchased as Series I Landy which I'm going to rebuild. I bought it off ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330139308843&rd=1&rd=1

Now From what I can tell it is quite original. From the info I can find on the net about the chassis number it suggests it is a 1956 model and one of the last of the 107" (which it mesaures between the wheels). It also has the bolt in the wing(near the wheel arch) where it should be on a 107". One thing that is different is the front radiator panel, which is the 109" type that is steel and has one single hole and not 4 like it whould be on a 107". other thing that is different is it's fixed section in the door tops is glass like a 109" but should be plastic for a 107" But maybe that has to do with the change over time?? Now the thing I can't seem to work out is if the engine is the original or not. any idea's where I could find that out??

Engine Number is 111714910

Thanks

[JDNSW]

I'm afraid it is not quite as original as it looks! For a start, it has a late Series 2a/3 steering wheel, and hence steering box (The steering wheel fitting is different), a fully floating axle (probably off a Series 2/2a, with a wider track - and the front axle may also be a ringin), the carburetter is not original, probably Holden, as is the aircleaner. The engine looks to be the right type for the model, have a look at http://www.fourfold.org/LR_FAQ/Series/FAQ.S.Chassis_Numbers.type.html



The easiest way of checking if it is a 107 or 109 is simply to measure the wheelbase between the hubcaps with the steering straight ahead.

As far as I know none of the Series 1s had glass in the door windows, but the original perspex would certainly need to have been replaced by now, and glass has a lot of advantages apart from its mass.

It looks like a lot of work needed for restoration, but it also looks as if there is a reasonable base to start with.

John

[101RRS]

Well you learn something new everyday - I thought all series 1s were either 80/86/88 in swb but all lwb were 109s with the exception of the lwb station wagon which was 107".

Which 2 litre engine is in yours - the early one with the close bores or the later one with the bores a little further apart. My 57 88 has glass in the doors.

Good luck with your find and the work ahead - I am just about to start on my 88.

Garry

[isuzurover]

Good luck with the rebuild. Looks like a good truck. The 107" utes are my favourite S1, and IMO probably the most capable offroad (further inboard rear springs mean better wheel travel - and the best wheelbase of all the S1s).

Unless you are rebuilding it for show, the updated axles and steering (if they have been done properly) are probably a good thing.

[JDNSW]

Well you learn something new everyday - I thought all series 1s were either 80/86/88 in swb but all lwb were 109s with the exception of the lwb station wagon which was 107".
........

The 107 wheelbase was introduced at the same time (1953) as the 86, and was changed to 109 at the same time as the 86 went to 88 (August 1956) except for the station wagon, which used a different chassis - it remained in production (and was not available in diesel) until the S2 109 wagon became available six months after the other Series 2s (1958).

John

[Guru036]

I'm afraid it is not quite as original as it looks! For a start, it has a late Series 2a/3 steering wheel, and hence steering box (The steering wheel fitting is different), a fully floating axle (probably off a Series 2/2a, with a wider track - and the front axle may also be a ringin), the carburetter is not original, probably Holden, as is the aircleaner. The engine looks to be the right type for the model, have a look at

Well yes I'm aware of the steering and carby, but I figure it's easier to fid a carby to suit the engine if it's correct rather than trying to find a complete engine. Steering is something I will keep my eye on. Full floating rear axles came in with the 109" SI, this is another reason I think it should be a 109" but it measures 107". Pretty sure it's still narrow track, do you know what the measurements should be??


As far as I know none of the Series 1s had glass in the door windows, but the original perspex would certainly need to have been replaced by now, and glass has a lot of advantages apart from its mass.
John

Yeah they did have glass on the 88/109 SI's just for the fixed piece on the door tops.

I love the 107's, They look cool, and very practical. and they are the best (by design) A Series I can get :)

[Guru036]

believe the motor is the "spread bore" as oil filter is on the right hand side of the block

[Guru036]

Okay, worked out a few more bits and pieces.

JDNSW - your right, not as original as I thought. Diffs are out of a Series IIA or III as the front diff steering arms come up from under the swivel (suppose to come down from the top from what I know).

Question: are the spring mounts on the diffs the same for Series I and other Series's? or did they need the spring perch's moved to fit the other diffs??

Also are the brakes on a 107/109 (11" drums) the same as on the Series IIA and III's ??

Also still trying to figure out if engine is original or just the right type for that year??

So what to do with it... I might see whats around to make it original, (Steering box and diffs). Or I might rebuild it more or less as is as an example of what has kept this 51 year old landy going. Any Other ide'as??

[Disco300Tdi]

Hey Guru...What John (JDNSW) doesn't know isn't worth knowing

Be careful....as you are the one waiting for answers

[JDNSW]

Okay, worked out a few more bits and pieces.

JDNSW - your right, not as original as I thought. Diffs are out of a Series IIA or III as the front diff steering arms come up from under the swivel (suppose to come down from the top from what I know).

Question: are the spring mounts on the diffs the same for Series I and other Series's? or did they need the spring perch's moved to fit the other diffs??

Also are the brakes on a 107/109 (11" drums) the same as on the Series IIA and III's ??

Also still trying to figure out if engine is original or just the right type for that year??

So what to do with it... I might see whats around to make it original, (Steering box and diffs). Or I might rebuild it more or less as is as an example of what has kept this 51 year old landy going. Any Other ide'as??

Spring perches at the front are the same - back 107/109 had the springs at the same spacing as the front - the sideways outriggers only came with Series 2. It may have had the spring perches changed or the more likely fitted with a swb axle with the narrower spacing.

The steering arms as you say are the later type - but all swivels back to 1954 can be converted to the later type, so that is not diagnostic! I can't locate a figure for the track of the Series 1, but Series 2/2a/3 is 1.31m and I know that Series 1 is about 50mm narrower (assuming standard wheels).

Brakes were 11" on all lwb, front stayed the same right through from S1 to S3 (except for six and V8 which were wider but otherwise the same - and all went to this in late S3) but the rear brakes changed from S2 to S2a - the earlier ones had a single adjuster opposite the wheel cylinder, like the handbrake, the later ones had a separate adjuster for each shoe.

Steering box remained the same late Series 1 to Series 2a suffix 'B' (about 1963) so there should be a few available. The problem is the earlier steering wheels tend to deteriorate and good specimens are scarce as hen's teeth.

The full floating axles are a definite improvement on the semifloating, but if they are the genuine S1 variant (I think only fitted to 1958 wagons as standard, but optional from about 1956) the shafts are virtually unobtainable, although later shafts can be used by converting a pair of drive flanges to spacers to allow the use of the longer shafts. The semifloating shafts are not as rare, but the wheel bearing is likely to need replacing.
Apart from the shafts nothing else is specific to (late) S1 about the axles except for the housing itself. (There will be detail differences but everything is interchangeable)

I would be inclined to restore it as well as you can - using original fittings where you can find them, but not being too pedantic about it. You can always fit the genuine part later if you come across one. However, I would avoid updating it unnecessarily!

It is probably worth getting a parts book if you can locate one, not only does it identify which parts are identical to later parts, but it shows how bits go together better than the workshop manual (which of course you need as well).

Have fun!

John

[UncleHo]

G'day Guru036 :)

Could you give me the Chassis No of the vehicle as I have the Master Parts book for the 1954-1957 86,88,107,109 models and I can probably help to identify the vehicle for you, also where abouts are you, could you put it in your profile.


There were 2 types that could have sold new in Australia, the RHD Export (complete) vehicle or the RHD CKD Vehicle (built up in Aust PMC Sydney and will have a Pressed Metal Corp badge)

Here is a quick rundown of year model differences, The 54 & 55 107's were only available in Blue & Grey but Green & Beige were added for 1956,
on 1954 models the Chassis frame was painted Blue, but on later models it was painted Black. Some of the CKD units (Aust Build up, would have been supplied as Dropside tray back bodies probably wooden) The Radiator support panel lists 2 types, so there must have been the change from the 4 stamped holes to the later 1 hole type BUT it does not give a Chassis No change over, just states * new partnot used on any previous model :( BTW that Radiator shroud is the original one (they were primative looking);) the Carby does look like a Holden Stromberg BXOV-1 type from an early grey motor holden,

Engine No's for you,from Master Parts Book (*) indicate year.

*** 1955 engines numbered in the range : RHD- 57100001 onwards

** 1955 engines numbered in the range : RHD -170600001 onwards
AND 1956 & 1957 Models

There is also a 3rd motor listed, 1954 this could be the last of the 1600 cc motors from the 80's but there are no numbers listed.


I would say that the *** motors would be "Siamese Bore" and that ** would be "Spread Bore" as they went on until the 2 1/4 litre OHV

Hope that is some help

Cheers

[UncleHo]

G'day Guru036 :)

Here is a bit more info for you ;)

2 types of steering box, 86 & 107 small housing with filler plug on the colunm shaft and a combined horn button with dipper switch in the centre of the wheel.

88 & 109 larger steering housing (same through 2/2a) listed as new part type. no horn button, on a pressed tin stalk attached to the column by a clamp dipper switch mover to floor. this later one could have been fitted to replace a cracked early type (Aliminuum housing) as early as under 2year old.

Also there are 2 different brake drum sizes, 86 & 107 with 10" brakes and the later 107 & 109 with 11" brakes, but it only lists one type of Rear Axle that is Semi Floating :confused: I would suggest that the Full Floating Axle part Numbers came out as a supercession in 56 model, and only with 11" brakes

The closest that I can find to that Number you posted is listed in the vehicle numbers as 56-57 Basic Vehicle, Home Market 88" (between 111600001 and 111700001)

cheers

[HangOver]

I know nothing about series landys but it looks OK and complete-ish and you got it for a good price, what more could you want :D

[Guru036]

Okay,

First of all I'm in Sydney, will update profile

Chassis number best I can read it is 277500906 but after looking into it I think it should be 277600906)

motor number is 111714910 and oil filter is on drivers side

meassured the diffs and they are 1310mm wide (track) so they are later. the brakes look small so I assume that they are off a SWB with 10" drums.

Is there much difference's in the leaf springs between thee models?? As I have a set off a Stage I V8 sitting here that are in good nick and I could pull apart and use instead of trying to fit the really rusty ones that are in it.

I think I will build it up as is with maybe replacing the steering box and wheel if I can find one.

The other thing is I have afew remains of a Stage I V8 I use to own. Including a front diff assembly that I rebuilt 4 yrs ago and never used, It has 3.54 centre (which I can change to a 4.77) maxi drive axles, the Stage I CV's and good chrome swivels. It also has the 11" drums which are wider.
So maybe what I could use that diff, but it's very not original I guess, CV's instead of Uni's. The only give away would be the bigger brakes from looking at it from the outside.

Can you fit the 11" drums to the SWB rear? As I would retain that in the rear.

Any infomation Is muchly appreciated, Thank you for everyones help.

[numpty]

G'day Guru036 :)

There is also a 3rd motor listed, 1954 this could be the last of the 1600 cc motors from the 80's but there are no numbers listed.


I would say that the *** motors would be "Siamese Bore" and that ** would be "Spread Bore" as they went on until the 2 1/4 litre OHV

Hope that is some help

Cheers

Uncle, the engine changed before 1954 as the last of the 80's had 2 litre siamese bore I think introduced in '51 or '52.
Perry

[UncleHo]

G'day Guru036 :)

That Chassis No of 277600906 would put your vehicle as the 905th C.K.D. RHD export 107 inch vehicle of 1955:) going by the master parts book lists, and yes you can put 11" LWB rear brake backing plates and drums on your rear axle to replace the 10" ones, you can also put the drums and backing plate from the Stage 1 on to the front ;) that would then give 3' wide front brakes in front, but, make sure that you have a 1" bore Master cylinder, otherwise you will not be able to exert enough hydraulic pressure to stop the vehicle (I am aware of several Fatalities where a vehicle that has brakes upgraded still had the 3/4 inch Master Cylinder[SWB] ) the front springs would best be left original as they are matched to the engine weight and body type, it would be better to remove them, clean up with a wire brush on an angle grinder, lightly chamfer the top of each leaf, paint and reassemble with new bushes(original type),the ride will be greatly improved:D I did this to my badly rusted springs on the 2a 15 years ago and have not had any sag or problems but the bushes are showing signs of wear now;).


I will help with any information that you need, with the books that I have, was a Landrover Spares man for years and my daily driver is a 2a Ex-Army LWB;)

cheers

[Guru036]

Thanks mate...all the online info still pointed to 1956... But I think your book would be closest to accurate.

As for brakes, I was thinking keeping the rear diff as is and fit the 11" drums. But might not fit the Wider 11" StageI to the front, just some normal 11" drums.

[JDNSW]

Thanks mate...all the online info still pointed to 1956... But I think your book would be closest to accurate.

As for brakes, I was thinking keeping the rear diff as is and fit the 11" drums. But might not fit the Wider 11" StageI to the front, just some normal 11" drums.

I would fit the 11" drums front and rear, as otherwise you can expect balance problems. The master cylinder is presumably a lwb one designed for the 11" brakes but it is a bit of a bitza so it needs checking. the 10" brakes are not adequate for the lwb, even with the small engine! I understand Series 1 master cylinders are hard to find or even get bits for, but I also understand the Series 2 master cylinder can be adapted.

The stage 1 axle, while it would work, is probably not a really good idea, as, looking to the future, parts for it are probably even harder to find than Series 1 parts - and Series 2/2a/3 parts for the axles you have are very easy.

John

[isuzurover]

The stage 1 axle, while it would work, is probably not a really good idea, as, looking to the future, parts for it are probably even harder to find than Series 1 parts - and Series 2/2a/3 parts for the axles you have are very easy.

John

I disagree. Most of the bits are the same as other models, only the casing is truly unique. Brakes are the same as a 6cyl, diffs are the same as rover diffs, CVs are AEU1811 which are identical to AEU2522 (110 county), except for the stub shaft length - meaning you just need modified hubs or drive flanges, hubs are the same as 110 (county) rears (apart from the drive flange bolt pattern - so swapping CVs and hubs and drive flanges to 110 county would be bolt-on. Stub axles (spindles) are the same as early RRC/110 (I think).

So a bit of fiddling around, but most of the "unique" parts are bits that don't need replacing anyway.

IMO - the only downside of the stage 1 diff is that the nose of the diff is rotated upwards (pointing straight at the t-case). However in my case I have never had any vibration problems using a standard IIA dront prop (unis are slightly out of phase though).

John - are you sure the springs weren't outboarded on the 109" S1 wagons???

Dave - if you aren't planning on carrying much weight - maybe try a set of 88" SWB springs if you have them lying around. They are only 160lb/in - so fairly soft, but they would give a VERY comfortable ride and flex amazingly.

How does the weight of the 2L compare to a rover V8???

[UncleHo]

G'day Guru036 :)

Using the 11' inch on the rear is just a backing plate & drum assy change and you could do the same with the fronts, either with rear 11' set-ups (single leading shoe) or with front drum assy's (Twin Leading Shoes) the 11" braked vehicles I think had the 1'bore Master cylinder, but you could easily adapt a 2 bolt mounting Series 2/2a CB cylinder to the existing 3 bolt mounting Series 1 CB Master cylinder mount/pushrod with an adapter plate;) as was done years ago.

cheers

[Guru036]

Found a Vehicle plate in the Car, from a Series IIA. Chassis number (suffixC) makes it a 1966/67 and I would say this is where the diffs and steering has come from.

Brake MC is CB style as it has the big nut on the end, but the rest of the casting looks abit smaller, maybe it is original Series I. If that is the case is the later CB Style actualy a bigger bore??

will definetly fit the 11" brakes (front and rear).

The Stage I Diff I have - Is assembled in a Series IIA Casing (original casing was damaged), As for the other differences, from what I can tell the swivel balls are exactly the same, infact you could fit the bearing in it to fun the Uni joint shafts (they made a spacer to fit in the large hole to carry the oil seal) So I could refit the original shafts if i wanted to and all the other brakes etc.

But with Maxi alxes and standard CV's I can't see the 2L doing any damage to them, brake shoes would be the only hard part, but they are all the same as SIII Ex-army Landy's cause of the 6Cyl.

As for springs, don't have a set of 88's rear lying around but sure I could get a set cheap. If I don't get an original tray I would be making a nice wooden flatbed

[Guru036]

Just had alook at the MC. It's only got 2 bolt holes. and it's just bolted to the chassis, and it don't look as small as I thought it was. looks like a CB type.

How do I know what size bore it's got? just take it off and measure It I guess??

[isuzurover]

Just had alook at the MC. It's only got 2 bolt holes. and it's just bolted to the chassis, and it don't look as small as I thought it was. looks like a CB type.

How do I know what size bore it's got? just take it off and measure It I guess??

If it is a SII/A MC then there is a big difference in size between the 88" and the 109" (1" bore versions). Both in diameter AND length. the 109" version is at least 1" longer.

Off-topic - when I bought my 109" IIA, the PO had fitted it with an 88" MC. When I rebuilt the truck the MC was fine so I left it alone, later when I needed a rebuild kit I found out.

with 11" drums and a SWB MC, it was VERY finnicky with brake adjustment to get a proper pedal height. However - less pressure was required to stop than with the larger MC.

[JDNSW]

Just had alook at the MC. It's only got 2 bolt holes. and it's just bolted to the chassis, and it don't look as small as I thought it was. looks like a CB type.

How do I know what size bore it's got? just take it off and measure It I guess??

Measure it. The original S1 master cylinder looks very similar to the CB type. There was an article about it in one of the UK magazines I read about a year ago - you can adapt the CB M/C to use in the Series 1 - I can't remember what was needed, but it may have been the mounting method, as the S2 cyylinder has two bolts and the S1 has three and certainly it needs a better rubber boot as it is very exposed. It sounds like you have a S2 cylinder.

One point to look at when working on the brakes is to make sure that the brake pedal itself does not have any areas where rust has eaten away the metal. (Clutch pedal too, but loss of clutch is less serious!)

John

[Guru036]

Yeah I'll measure it.

If I run the series II CB type MC and the Stage I front with the 11" brakes and 11" rears that will sort the brakes out.

Just need to work out if the engine is the original or just correct for the time. Mind you I guess If I'm not running the original diffs it won't matter too much. Will get the correct carby, is it a solex on the 2L ??

Will also keep an eye on steering box and wheel

[JDNSW]

Yeah I'll measure it.

If I run the series II CB type MC and the Stage I front with the 11" brakes and 11" rears that will sort the brakes out.

Just need to work out if the engine is the original or just correct for the time. Mind you I guess If I'm not running the original diffs it won't matter too much. Will get the correct carby, is it a solex on the 2L ??

Will also keep an eye on steering box and wheel

Yes, Solex, I don't have a model number for it though.

A Series 2 lwb CB master cylinder with 11" brakes should work well - the different pedal arrangement won't make any difference, but you need to see if you can find a better boot than the standard one to try and keep the dirt out.

John

[Guru036]

Cool.

Thanks heaps for all your help.

Happen to know where I can find some good pictures of an original SI 86 or 107 ?? mainly for detailed under the bonnet.

Also I am planning to get all the galvinising redone, I did it on my old series IIA and makes such a differance, but on that I just pop riveted it back together, how hard is it to find original style rivets and fit them??

Also will be painting it bronze green instead of grey like it was originally

[JDNSW]

Cool.

Thanks heaps for all your help.

1. Happen to know where I can find some good pictures of an original SI 86 or 107 ?? mainly for detailed under the bonnet.

2. Also I am planning to get all the galvinising redone, I did it on my old series IIA and makes such a differance, but on that I just pop riveted it back together, how hard is it to find original style rivets and fit them??

3. Also will be painting it bronze green instead of grey like it was originally

1. Go to the Expo in Penrith next Sunday and take your camera.

2. Rivets should be available from any specialist fastener supplier, although you will have to work out what to ask for. You will also need the correct tools to close the rivets, any competent machinist should be able to make these for you, although for best results they should be heat treated and this will be harder to find people to do. It would be much easier with a jig to hold the punch and die in line, although this is not absolutely necessary. Some of the gadgets used in aviation to temporarily hold bits in place while rivetting would be useful or you could put in some pop rivets temporarily and drill them out later, replacing them with the right ones.

3. Up to you what colour you paint it, but although I understand green was available, my memory is that in that time frame lwbs were invariably grey, with swb invariably green.

John