Rust in 110's

[mojo]

Hi,

Most of the vehicles I've seen in my search for a 110 have had some degree of rust in them - sometimes at the bottom of the doors, often in the rear tailgate. The one I saw on the weekend seemed to have rust everywhere, although it had apparently spent most of its life on an island...

Just wondering if this is something all Landy owners have to deal with at some stage. It's not too difficult to find a 10-15 year old Cruiser or Patrol around with no signs of rust - are you likely to be able to find a 10-15 year old Defender in similar condition? Or is there something about them that makes them more succeptable - maybe the window/windscreen seals aren't good enough? Are they harder in general to keep rust free than other 4DW's?

Cheers

Sean

[cal415]

I to am dealing with a rusty 110 at the moment, i dont think its that theres no non rusty 110s out there more so that people dont want to part with a good condition 110. With that being said i have seen plenty of rust free 110s, and no i dont think there more likely to rust then a patrol or cruiser, actualy less likely to rust due to being mainly aluminium, just that the kind of driving your average 110/defender driver does compared to a patrol or cruiser driver i.e more offroad/beach work compared to soccer mum type driving. I dont think i know of any 110 drivers that dont go offroad but i can definetly name alot of nissan/toyo owners that dont.

Rust in the 110s seems to be most usualy in the doors/door bottoms in all doors and in the firewall, Rust in the doors is easy enough to fix if you get it before they fall appart but the firewall is not so easy. I looked at a few that had chassis rust, which can be fix in alot of cases but unless you are planning on removing the body from the chassis for some reason its way to much hassle...

[isuzurover]

I have seen a few 110s with no rust - depends how well they are looked after and if they are left to sit with sand/mud in the nooks and crannies.

110 countys sold in very low numbers - and most people who have a good one don't want to sell it.

My 110 had apparently never been on the beach, but the guy lived inland from Ballina, so who knows. The chassis is fine, but the bottoms of 3 doors will need looking at at soon.

It isn't really a big deal to replace a section of door frame if that is all that needs doing. You just need to fold back the frame, chop off the rusted section, and weld in a new section - looks like new afterwards if done properly. If the landie is cheap enough, get a quote from a panel beater to fix the frames, and factor it into the price.

[Chenz]

My 110 has only got a small amount on the floor near the drivers side door just behind the rubber seal. Must hold water there or something. I have checked out the other ones and no sign of rust.

I just sanded back to metal and fish oiled it. The guy I bought mine off was a fanatic with the fish oil. Makes it great when working on the red terror. Took me hours to find the body number and rub it back to read the bloody thing when I had to transfer the rego.

Must work OK as he used it on the beach a bit and apart from the drivers door no rust in the old girl.

[scrambler]

The door design is out of the dark ages, and the aluminium sheeting creates some of the problem.

I can't speak for where the water gets in with a Defender door, but assuming it's the same as the 110 (County) then the main problem is the seal against the bottom of the glass. The design allows any water that succeeds in running down the window to pool in the bottom of the door, or to sit between the aluminium skin and steel frame. The rust can be cut out, but it's a bit of a hastle with the sheeting.

On the older (series) vehicles, rust was equally likely, but largely confined to the upper part of the door - because the window's didn't roll down. It's easier to deal with, esp in the front, by replacing the upper 1/2 of the door, which unbolts anyway.

All land rovers rust in the firewall. It's part of the brand mystique ;)

As for comparisons - it isn't that easy to find a 30 year old Toyo or Nissan which isn't motheaten with rust, or had its panels replaced wholesale, possibly with fibreglass. The 15 year old one with no apparent rust is, IMHO, a ticking bomb. Of course, it may not go off while you own it.

That said, I have a 15 year old Pajero (yes, I do know what it means) which has no body rust I can find. It's a country car with logbooks - I bought it in a yard but know the original owner. But there are spots, like the sunroof frame, which are on their way out.

In short - I think there are design faults with the Defender/County doors but provided they are in reasonable condition and you keep an eye on them, they'll last well enough. And you can always replace with newer doors :) and onsell yours to some poor Series owner :D

[olmate]

Gents,

When I had my 110, I had rust in all doors (including the rear). I took it to Land Rover in Perth and complained as they were 'meant to be unrustable etc'. I complained as the 110 was bought by me after much consideration given to the advertisments by Land Rover regarding the vehicle. Land Rover took photos, investigated and replaced all doors without expense to myself. I had bought my 1993 Defender second hand in 1998.

I did take the doors without them being fitted to the vehicle (my plan was to hang onto them until really needed).

I have found that the movement of the stell frame within the alloy doors can errode them quickly as well. I did end up spraying the inside of my doors with a silicon based spray and anti-rust paint etc.

Hope this helps.

[JDNSW]

My 110, just reached its 21st, has virtually no rust anywhere. First owner was in Alice Springs, second owner briefly in Melbourne, hardly used it, and I live inland. I think that is the secret!

Water will get into any door with a windup window - the secret is to get it out - and all cars with windup windows have drains, and rust when the drains are blocked. The drains on the 110 are fairly easy to block, and in addition should have tabs to stop their being blocked by the bottom seal. I've never looked at how Defenders treat the problem so can't comment.

John

[MacMan]

Every 110 ten that I looked at prior to buying the Disco had rust in doorframes, and some had rust in firewall like Clarkie's Grommet.

That was part of the reason we decided to steer clear of them in favour of a Disco (this time! :cool:)

[mojo]

Thanks for all the info guys.

Hopefully I'll be able to find a 110 that's been taken care of.

Cheers

Sean

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Where do they rust in the firewall? Is what can I do to make sure it doesn't start in our car?

[incisor]

Where do they rust in the firewall? Is what can I do to make sure it doesn't start in our car?

sell it to me real cheap then it wont start in yours cause it will be mine :P

lanolin is your friend, up behind the dash, make sure the windscreen hinge thingoes are actually sealing, spray the inside of the doors and frames.

[Defender=1st]

but aint they aluminium ??
so how do they rust ??
is this Defender doors also ??
Thanks
Regards Adrian

[EchiDna]

but aint they aluminium ??
so how do they rust ??
Thanks
Regards Adrian

coz they are steel? :D

the door frames are steel, the firewall is steel... and galvanic corrosion doesn't help either with the mix of metals.

[Grizzly_Adams]

There's a bit of confusion between rust and corrosion.

Steel rusts, aluminium corrodes.

Where aluminium and steel connect (eg. door frames and body panels) corrosion accelerates. Not sure of the exact physics of it (others can tell you) just take it as gospel that it does.

I have some small amount of bubbling corrosion on my door body panels down near the bottom of the door. I took it to my local panel beater who advised me it would be cheaper and easier to be on the lookout for a secondhand set of doors that were rust-free and in reasonable nick. He could then paint them up, I could fish oil / lanolin / rust proof them and swap them over when ready.

In the meantime he recommended scraping off the rust / corrosion and just using some touch-up paint with some fish oil or lanolin to protect the door as long as possible.

... which is why I am trying to find the right paint code for my Blue '94 300tdi Defender 110 Station Wagon :cool:

[scrambler]

Aluminium corrodes with a non-water-permeable oxide. "Annodised aluminium" cookware has been force-corroded to protect the base metal. Bolting steel onto aluminium creates a small battery (when exposed to water) which reproduces the annodising process and forces the aluminium to corrode. Note that in theory this protects the steel, though not in practice :( The galvanic corrosion of the aluminium doesn't result in "annodised aluminium" panels due to the thinness of the panels, instead it can corrode the panel right through.

Adrian, there's very little aluminium in the body of a Defender (or County, Or Series Land-Rover). It's just the cladding and rivets. Everything else is mild steel.

[Lucas]

Mine is rusting under the heater box, on the door frame under the lower hinge and surface rust above the vents other than that its all good;).

Plan on stripping down at Christmas time for a repair.

[Dunnie]

The age-old problem with the composite steel and aluminium construction used on these beasts is that the two dissimilar metals work like a battery when they are wet (more so with salt water) so you have electrolytic corrosion as well as good old fashioned rust. It is easy to prevent by using simple insulating barriers like polythene sheet and sealant but LR seem to be a bit hit and miss about using this preventative. Plenty of lanolin spray and CRC Soft Seal or the like goes a long way to slowing it down.

[Reads90]

:D:D:D:D

God you lot don't know real rust. Any defender i have seen in Aus (and disco and rangie for that ) has had in my terms (and what i am used to ) no rust at all. Just look under my 90 and then under my Disco. Both same age and the 90 had the chassis stripped back and redone 4 years ago and now it is alot worse underneth than the Disco.
I keep winding up my brother than my 95 disco has less rust under than his 2002 D2.
:D:D:D:D

[isuzurover]

There's a bit of confusion between rust and corrosion.

Steel rusts, aluminium corrodes.

If we are being pedantic - corrosion is a term that applies to ALL metals which oxidise - including steel.

Rust, as stated - is something intended to apply only to steel (or ferrous metals).

Galvanising (zinc coating) protects steel because zinc has a lower electode potential than steel - so it corrodes preferentially. This also means that zinc coatings still protect if there is bare steel. Tin on the other hand, has a higher electrode potential, which is why the steel of a tin can will corrode if scratched, rather than the tin coating. Aluminium has a lower electrode potential than zinc and steel, which means it also corrodes preferentially if the 2 are in direct contact.

I saw a seminar a few months back by a visiting professor, who said that biological corrosion (corrosion by microbes) is a much bigger factor than people think.

[JDNSW]

.........

Adrian, there's very little aluminium in the body of a Defender (or County, Or Series Land-Rover). It's just the cladding and rivets. Everything else is mild steel.

Or putting it another way - it is all aluminium except for the firewall, door frames, body capping, most fittings, and on the 90/110/Defender the seat box and transmission tunnel, and on the Series the windscreen frame. In other words, nearly all the panels are aluminium. On Series 1, all steel in the body except the firewall was galvanised, Series 2 and 3 stopped galvanising the door and bonnet frames and some fittings, Series 3 stopped galvanising more fittings, such as bonnet hinges, 90/110 introduced the steel seat box and a few more bits of steel and about the introduction of the Defender stopped galvanising body cappings. (A few early Series 1s had galvanised chassis, as did some South African Defenders (these also had galvanised firewalls), and the Perentie Landrovers. Some early Series 1s had galvanised or aluminium firewalls as well. But even today, almost all the panelling in Defenders is aluminium including all the visible external panels except the bulkhead or firewall.

John

[emerald]

Ah yes Landy rust, the thing that keeps me awake at night and cussing in the workshop :)

I have rebuilt a good many LR's now and as many posters have said, if its steel, it will rot.

There is no real wonder cure for it and my approach is not the cheapest and is done to keep the vehicle on the road for as long as possible.

Chassis, shot blasted, then hot dipped galvanised

Bulk head, replaced very time. Then either chemically stripped or blasted (carefully) and then hot dipped galvanised. I choose not to repair bulkheads anymore becuase of the time involved. The repair pieces and panel beater labour costs me more than buying new genuine TD5 bulkheads.

Doors, its an art. With a great deal of care and keeping your cool it is possible to get the bottom of the door skin away from the door frame. Cut out offending rotted section and weld in new piece. You can buy replacement door frame sections. If money is not an issue, buy new doors!

Body to Chassis area has a piece of inner tube bonded to the chassis and it helps a lot.

Althought not a rust problem, I also put rubber rings on top of the springs. It helps reduce road noise.

Fuel tank always gets stripped and painted with Ziga paint. Its tought paint thats nearly all Zinc and has been used in the North Sea oil platforms for over 30 years. Sometimes I will pain bulkheads with this stuff if Galvanising is not possible within the time frame given.

Under the floor is usually best repaired by cutting it out and replacing.

If you go with a major bulkhead repair or replacement, do the wise thing and fit an uprated wiring loom.

Emerald

[mojo]

G'day again all,

Had a look at a 2000 Defender Extreme today, it seemed in pretty good condition. I did find some rust though. Most of the bolts on the door hinges had some rust - that in itself didn't bother me, as I'm sure they could be replaced reasonably easily, but my worry is that if the bolts are rusting, is it possible there is more hidden rust inside the door?

I also found some rust in the rear (tailgate) door. It was right at the very bottom of the door - not visible on the outside panel. I am sure this will need to be cut out and repaired - just wondering how big a job this is? Would it be simple enough for someone with no prior experience to do?

There was also some surface rust on the "deflector bar"(not sure what the correct term is) that sits behind and below the bullbar - I would assume
this wouldn't be to hard to treat?

Hope you're not all getting sick of my questions!

Cheers

Sean

[scrambler]

mojo, if after reading this thread all you can find is a little rust in a the rear door frame, and some surface rust on door bolts and steering protector, it would be classified as a "rust-free" vehicle by any Land Rover standards. Surface rust - clean off and apply your choice of rust inhibiting cover (paint, primer, oil etc). And the rear door rust - see the comments by emerald above re doors.

[mojo]

Thanks scrambler. As far I as I can see, the only rust is in the areas I've mentioned. I guess my main concern is the rear door. I saw emerald's post, but wouldn't know one end of a welder from the other ... so I guess I'm really just wondering if it can be bogged rather than welded?

[scrambler]

IMHO rust in the bottom of the door frames is best sanded and filed/cut out, primed and painted but NOT bogged. I.e. if the rust is right through the frame, leave the hole open. I've a hole like this in the drivers door of my Series III wagon - it doesn't get any worse over time. Bogging will retain more water so more rust.

Rear doors are a fairly common replacement. You might want to think about getting a spare wheel holder to take the weight off the door.

[mojo]

Thanks mate. What you're saying makes sense.

This guy is asking $24k for it - 2000 Defender 110 Extreme, 120000 km. As mentioned, it seems in pretty good nick, paintwork has a few minor scratches and tiny dents. He is happy for me to get a pre purchase inspection. Any idea if this is a reasonable price? Redbook says its a few grand too high, but every Defender/County I've seen sold over the last few months has gone for well over Redbook prices, so I'm thinking its not too over the top?


Cheers

Sean

[Utemad]

I think the biggest problem with rust in any Land Rover is caused by the aluminium.


When I was ringing sellers about Discoverys I always asked if they had rust around the alpine windows. Lots of people said 'Of course not they are made of aluminium'. :o

Who needs to prevent rust if your car is made of aluminium?

[mojo]

Yeah, I've rung alot of people in my hunt for a Landy and asked them about rust, and often get the "no, its made from aluminium" reply. Although judging by the reponses in this thread, I suppose technically it's not rust :confused: :D

[spudboy]

Thanks mate. What you're saying makes sense.

This guy is asking $24k for it - 2000 Defender 110 Extreme, 120000 km. As mentioned, it seems in pretty good nick, paintwork has a few minor scratches and tiny dents. He is happy for me to get a pre purchase inspection. Any idea if this is a reasonable price? Redbook says its a few grand too high, but every Defender/County I've seen sold over the last few months has gone for well over Redbook prices, so I'm thinking its not too over the top?


Cheers

Sean

Price sounds like the going rate for that year. The KMs are pretty good.

What extras does it have? Snorkel? Lights? Dual battery? etc.

[mojo]

spudboy, it's got snorkel, bullbar, tow bar, roof rack, and pretty sure its got spotties. Don't think it has duel batteries.

[spudboy]

Even better! Does it have a full service history?

[mojo]

Yeah, I had a quick look at the log books, it seems to have been serviced pretty frequently - although sometimes a few thousand k's overdue. This owner and the previous owner appear to have written in "Oil changed" into the log book themselves on a couple of occasions, which I suppose may be why they left it a bit longer for some of the services. From memory the first owner had it serviced by the dealer at Ipswich, possibly Blue Ribbon motors.

The current owner had it serviced by MR Automotive, although he said he didn't like them. I thought this was a bit strange, seeing all the people here seem very happy with MR.

[DeeJay]

I saw this Defer on Dandenong rd earlier this week. Chassis not too good at the back:o

[Captain_Rightfoot]

There is a 110 extreme on my footpath at the moment (visiting next door) and they have a little surface cancer on the outside of the crossmember. I'm not sure if its actually a big deal or not.

[Dave110]

I saw this Defer on Dandenong rd earlier this week. Chassis not too good at the back:o

mine's the same! still nothing to worry about! original crappy paint job blasted off with normal wear and tare normally from high pressure washing just keep an eye out for rust on the chassis where the dirt and mud sticks wash down after all bush trips

[mojo]

Well, it looks like I am nearly a Landie owner. Barring any unforseen circumstances, I will pick up the car I mentioned above tonight.

Very excited. :D