Transmission oils

[George130]

The oil for my gearbox is
SAE 0w-20
KV@40deg c (cSt) 36
KV@100deg c (cSt) 7.1
cP@-40deg C 8400
Density@15Deg C 0.836
Viscosity 170
Pour Point(Deg C) -60
Closed Flash point (Deg C) 226

So which of these would be the best choice?
1

Allison TransmissionC4 Fluid - Certification No. C4-30262004VoithH55.6335 (G607 list)

Meets former General Motors specifications GMN10055 and GM 6417M (former DEXRON®III).

KEY PROPERTIESDensity at 15°C, kg/L0.870ColourRedFlash Point,°C190Pour Point, °C-51Viscosity, cP at -40°C15,000Viscosity, cSt at 40°C35.8Viscosity, cSt at 100°C7.2Viscosity Index168

2

Approvals:
· Allison C4 fluid (C4-31662005)
· Voith Turbo H55.6335 (G607 List)
· ZF TE-ML 14B
· Meets former General Motor specificationsGMN10055 and GM 6417M (former DEXRON®III).

Suitable for use where the following fluid specifications are recommended:
· Allison TES-295
· Ford MERCON

KEY PROPERTIESColourRed

Pour Point, °C-45Viscosity, cP at -40°C11,400Viscosity, cSt at 40°C35.3Viscosity, cSt at 100°C7.4Viscosity Index183

Thanks for any input.

[George130]

Guess the experts aren't on at the moment. I will be picking up one of them tomorrow. so after that any advice is to late:(

[rick130]

Edd, I'd use this one

The oil for my gearbox is
SAE 0w-20
KV@40deg c (cSt) 36
KV@100deg c (cSt) 7.1
cP@-40deg C 8400
Density@15Deg C 0.836
Viscosity 170
Pour Point(Deg C) -60
Closed Flash point (Deg C) 226which just happens to be Transmax Z. ;)

The other two you list are semi-synthetic at best, and while they'd work fine, I'd rather a full synth off road or towing in summer in a heavy 130.
I haven't had an auto for years, but when I did, the C6 in the F100 ran cooler with Neo and Amsoil full synth ATF than with Castrol mineral Dex II. (Thermocouple on cooler lines)

The second of the two fluids you list has a higher VI which is handy when things get hot (doesn't thin as much, up to a point), and is thinner at -40 compared to the other fluid you list, so it either has a higher quality base fluids (good) or uses a higher dose of VII's (not so good)

What are they both ? Might be able to comment better.

[B92 8NW]

Transmax Z is $72 /4litres, but I'm using it in an LT77S and it is excellent.

[rjhjstr]

George
Sounds like the 2nd fluid you are quoting is one of Penrites' probably the ATF Synthetic. I've never used it but with Penrites reputation I expect that it will be OK.
Anybody out there used either the Penrite ATF synthetic or the Penrite ATF BMV?

Russell

[rick130]

comparing pour points, VI (viscosity index) and viscosity at -40 I'm pretty sure that the first fluid has better quality base fluids, and the second one uses a lighter (thinner) base fluid 'bumped up' with a dose of VII's (viscosity index improver's) to give a higher VI (183 vs 170).
The problem with VII's is that generally they aren't near as shear stable as a good quality base fluid, and so the viscosity may fall in service as they shear.

Transmax Z, Redline, Neo, etc. don't use any VII's (which is partly why they can be used successfully as MTF's)

[George130]

Havn't got the oil yet but
No one is Transmax (Castrol)

The other two are Caltex fluids.
No 1 being their Synthetic Auto trans fluid
No 2 is Texamatic 1888

I have been told my box needs full Synthetic as it will just cook the standard oils. It needs to be able to handle high temps.

Plan is to go with Synthetic Auto trans fluid

[rick130]

I'd use this one then


Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid Heavy Duty

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ Description (http://www.caltex.com.au/products_oil_detail.asp?id=300&area=1) https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
Premium performance, multipurpose anti-wear automatic transmission fluid (ATF) formulated in
ultra high viscosity index base fluid, with Allison C-4 identification and approval. Specially designed for heavy duty automatic truck and bus transmissions operating
in severe service.

[George130]

I'd use this one then

Thanks that's the one I was planning to get. Just wanted to be safe. Box was fully rebuilt in 04 with heavy everything. They didn't do the torque converter back then so I have now done that. Didn't like the idea of cooking the oil and being caught out after spending the $$$

[rjhjstr]

Based purely upon published specs I believe that the Penrite ATF synthetic is probably the best of them all

Density at 15C .855
Viscosity at 40C 35cSt
Viscosity at 100C 7.9cSt
Viscosity index 209
Pour point -48C
Viscosity at -20C 900cP
Viscosity at -40C 9300cP

What I don't know is whether the high viscosity index is achieved by good base oils or by loads of added VIIs.

Russell

[rjhjstr]

The Caltex Synthetic heavy duty ATF is only available in 20 litre drums for a cost of approx $260. That should be about a 6 year supply!

Russell

[rick130]

well I can tell you that the Penrite 'synthetic' ATF is a Group III (hydrocracked) base, so that might give you an idea. ;)

[George130]

The Caltex Synthetic heavy duty ATF is only available in 20 litre drums for a cost of approx $260. That should be about a 6 year supply!

Russell
That's ok I have a Caltex card. Castrol could only supply me in 1 litre bottles so 10 liters was going to cost $230 anyway. I would rather put it on my card. Got the torque converter today and after running around all day I have the seal. Now to put it all back and grab some oil. See you all at the expo :).

[rjhjstr]

Rick130
So how can we tell which "synthetic" ATFs are made from group III oils and which are from true synthetic Group Iv PAOs. The group IV would be the ones to go for.

Russell

[rick130]

Rick130
So how can we tell which "synthetic" ATFs are made from group III oils and which are from true synthetic Group Iv PAOs. The group IV would be the ones to go for.

Russell

only from the what the manufacturers tell you, unless you have access to a gas chromatograph, and according to the experts, they aren't easy to interpret, either.

Transmax Z is a PAO/ester brew, all of Redlines oils are primarily POE base with a dash of PAO to counter seal swell, Amsoil use PAO, Mobil 1 ATF is PAO base, Neo are di-ester but this is an oversimplification.

Apparently some Group III bases are getting closer in characteristics to PAO's (and are often blended with them) Shell even blend their XHVI Group III into their F1 brews to get what they want but some are barely any better than Group II oils, wheras a PAO, esters and alkylated napthalenes (Mobil use these in M1 alongside their PAO's) are very, very consistent in quality.


I think the bottom line is that with any oil the overall package is more important than what base oils they use, but with the limited amount of knowledge I have, super high VI's can usually only be obtained with a healthy dose of VII's, but it does depend on the viscosity of the various base oils used.

[rjhjstr]

So if I hear you correctly, the only "true" synthetic ATF that is reasonably easy to get hold of is the Mobil 1 Sythetic ATF? I believe that is also only available in 20 litre package for serious $.
I have never seen Amsoil products in the usual retail locations (unless it is marketed under a different trade name).

Russell

[Michael2]

George
Sounds like the 2nd fluid you are quoting is one of Penrites' probably the ATF Synthetic. I've never used it but with Penrites reputation I expect that it will be OK.
Anybody out there used either the Penrite ATF synthetic or the Penrite ATF BMV?

Russell

I'm using Penrite Synthetic ATF in an LT77 and an R380. At around $30 for 4 litres (from the Penrite factory nearby), it represents good value, and I'm assured that it's more stable at high temp than light gear oil.

I can't go into the tech side like Rick, but if you do a search, there have been a few discussions previously.

[George130]

Well the Caltex one has magically returned to Melbourne so if your not down there good luck. Even the Mobil Synthetic seems to have dried up:mad:

[rick130]

So if I hear you correctly, the only "true" synthetic ATF that is reasonably easy to get hold of is the Mobil 1 Sythetic ATF? I believe that is also only available in 20 litre package for serious $.
I have never seen Amsoil products in the usual retail locations (unless it is marketed under a different trade name).

Russell

Groups I, II, II+ (a Chevron/texaco base), III are mineral oil derived.
Group IV is PAO's, generally derived from ethylene gas.
Group V is for everything else (di-esters, polyolesters, alkylated napthalenes, etc) and are usually considerd the 'truest' of synthetics (if that's possible)

Very, very generally, esters have better lubricity and solubility than PAO's and a broader operating range, or at least higher temp capabilities (particularly POE's) depending on type used.
The chemistry involved is way beyond me, and there is some pretty amazing stuff out there according to the people I listen to. e.g. Castrol's real synthetics like Transmax Z use esters derived from PAO's that perform the function of VII's while actually being base fluids. Very trick and derived in Germany.
The problem with these crowds is that you don't really know what you are buying, as things like Castrol Formula R 5w-30 which is touted as a 'synthetic' is an out and out Group III oil.

There was also a big bunfight in the US six months ago as a bloke from one of the big ester manufacturers (HATCO) did a GC test on Mobil 1 EP 15W-50 (not available here) and concluded that it was a majority GIII.
Tom posted the results on a little oil board I'm on just as an FYI thinking not too many were on the site.
Oooops. Big reverberations. Mobil spin went into overdrive, it raced across the www at warp speed and the poor bloke was hauled over the coals at work, and he was a corporate vice president !
Apparently Mobil had huge problems after Hurricane Katrina, and there is still an ongoing problem on lack of supply with PAO's due to demand with ever tightening oil standards.
Most oils these days are a real witches brew of bases and additives, it's almost redundant to call one a 'synthetic' and another 'mineral' as so many different oils are used in a brew to get what the blender wants.
Funny thing is, all my oils are still (to the best of my knowledge) PAO/ester based. I'm still a snob. :D

[rick130]

Well the Caltex one has magically returned to Melbourne so if your not down there good luck. Even the Mobil Synthetic seems to have dried up:mad:

Looks like Transmax Z time :D
or if there is a Bursons there, they stock Redline, just be prepared for $ticker $hock....:eek:
Actually, Redline trade prices aren't too bad on their gear oils, but their engine oil pricing is loopy

[4bee]

Gotta ask.:D

Rick, do you devour Tech Bulletins & Product Data Sheets etc for Breakfast Lunch & Dinner, or is it just something you picked up down at the local pub? :D

[Pedro_The_Swift]

started down the Transmax Z path,,
bought 4 litres today,,
will go into ACE, PAS and Auto,,
(DONT really want to buy 20 litres----)

the suck and drain auto method sounds good,,
will the auto actually suck it up from a bucket?

can the same method work for the PAS?

edit; by the rave cd,, it looks as simple as disconnecting the incoming reseviour line(into bucket) keeping the res topped up untill the colour changes
comments???




I seem to recall ACE needs textbook to cycle the fluid????
though the pump runs all the time---
edit; again the same system might work,,, though no mention of quantity of fluid here--- would be a bit---

oh,, and you need a REALY small funnel for PAS/ACE topups:p

[George130]

Looks like Transmax Z time :D
or if there is a Bursons there, they stock Redline, just be prepared for $ticker $hock....:eek:
Actually, Redline trade prices aren't too bad on their gear oils, but their engine oil pricing is loopy

Yea I will be ringing the distributor on Monday. If they can Invoice me then and there then I can put in the claim and pick it up Wednesday or Thursday.

[rick130]

Gotta ask.:D

Rick, do you devour Tech Bulletins & Product Data Sheets etc for Breakfast Lunch & Dinner, or is it just something you picked up down at the local pub? :D

:blush:
ok, so I have an unhealthy fascination with all things slippery........:angel:

Actually started when I was building race engines and did the ring around of importers to get stuff to test on the Dyno. First bloke I rang (the then Amsoil importer) said he had better stuff that a few factory teams were using but no one would give him feedback, so he said he'd give me the stuff if he could come and watch the dyno runs. (retail in '93 was $95/5 litres !) He became a sponsor and we picked up 4hp and 4lb/ft over what most of the opposition were running. (and we were already only using 30-35psi @ 7000RPM to cut down on parasitic drag !)

It piqued an interest

[rick130]

can the same method work for the PAS?

edit; by the rave cd,, it looks as simple as disconnecting the incoming reseviour line(into bucket) keeping the res topped up untill the colour changes
comments???






yep, that's all I do. Just remember to swing the wheels from lock to lock a few times and hold there for a second or so to get the fluid right through the box/system, or use what the Yanks call "the turkey baster method" and just suck it out over a few days/top ups :D

The Caltex PAS14315 fluid is pretty good stuff, and is a bit thinner than Transmax Z at around zero so I'd be a little concerned about using it in the ACE system, and PAS14315 is still the only 'approved' fluid to my knowledge.
Having said that Transmax Z has an excellent reputation for anti-wear, is a hydraulic fluid and I believe actually has a GL4 gear rating too. (even though it isn't on the data sheet)

[rjhjstr]

Got onto the ZF website last night and under Technical Info discovered that the Transmax Z ATF is "approved" by ZF under their TE-ML11B spec for the 4HP22EH and 4HP24 gearboxes as used by LR. It is also approved under the ZF TE-ML14C spec for extended drain service for ZF bus & truck transmissions. Incidentally, the Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is also approved for ZF bus and truck transmissions but only against the TE-ML14B spec which requires a more frequent change than the TE-ML14C spec. So, I'm off on the Transmax Z route.

Rick130, why don't you save us all a lot of angst and pain. You've obviously done a lot of research into oils and lubes. Just tell us what oils and fluids you use in your LR and the rest of us will just take it from there.

Russell

[George130]

Got onto the ZF website last night and under Technical Info discovered that the Transmax Z ATF is "approved" by ZF under their TE-ML11B spec for the 4HP22EH and 4HP24 gearboxes as used by LR. It is also approved under the ZF TE-ML14C spec for extended drain service for ZF bus & truck transmissions. Incidentally, the Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is also approved for ZF bus and truck transmissions but only against the TE-ML14B spec which requires a more frequent change than the TE-ML14C spec. So, I'm off on the Transmax Z route.

Rick130, why don't you save us all a lot of angst and pain. You've obviously done a lot of research into oils and lubes. Just tell us what oils and fluids you use in your LR and the rest of us will just take it from there.

Russell

Thats my problem. The case and splines in mine are Discovery ZF but everything else has been modified. It has heavy duty everything. I have now been told there is nothing also I could do to it. Mine must run Synthetic.
It's also the computerised box changed back to valve body control.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

What else is there Edd but TransmaxZ??