Re-Ringing a Series Engine

[101RRS]

Hi all,

What are the pros and cons of pulling the pistons out through the sump and putting in new rings without doing a rebore or hone in a series engine? Also at the same time putting in new big end and main bearings without grinding the crank.

My sump is a bit bashed in and I need to take it off too bash it back out and as the engine does blow a little smoke I was thinking about re-ringing it while the sump was off. I intend to do a full rebuild on the engine later but just want to do a patchup for the moment.

Advice from anyone who has done this would be appreciated.

Thanks

Garry

[djam1]

Gary is it a four or a six petrol or diesel??

[Tank]

Hi all,

What are the pros and cons of pulling the pistons out through the sump and putting in new rings without doing a rebore or hone in a series engine? Also at the same time putting in new big end and main bearings without grinding the crank.

My sump is a bit bashed in and I need to take it off too bash it back out and as the engine does blow a little smoke I was thinking about re-ringing it while the sump was off. I intend to do a full rebuild on the engine later but just want to do a patchup for the moment.

Advice from anyone who has done this would be appreciated.

Thanks

Garry
How on earth are you going to get the pistons and rods out of the bores via the sump, for a start you won't get them past the crankshaft and if you are doing it in chassis to remove the crank you will have to remove the gearbox, even with the crank out I doubt if you pull the pistons past the main bearing castings. Pull the head off and push the pistons out the top, you can replace main bearings without removing the crank but it is very tedious. Replacing rings without a hone of the bore will make it very hard to seat the rings in for a good seal, Regards Frank.

[loanrangie]

Never done it on a landy but did it on my mates 4.1 crossflow xc falcon, you just rotate the crank till the pin is horizontal and then you can drop the piston and rod out thru the sump.

[101RRS]

Sorry - 2 litre (later) petrol series engine.

Frank,

Thanks for information. There are many engines that you can get the pistons with connecting rods out through the sump without removing the crank. You undo the big ends and take the piston an rod out. It depends on clearances between the block and the crankshaft. It can be done but I do not know about with series engines. I share your concern about seating the rings but again I understand it is possible but it might take a while for the rings too seat but will happen using running in oil. I don't know if any of this is possible hence my posting asking advice from those who might have done it or tried it.

Cheers

Garry

[vnx205]

Removing the head on a Series is not a very big job.
I bought a Series III engine from a farmer who had replaced it with a Holden engine at 30,000km. As they were mostly paddock kilometres, I reckoned that was about 100,000.
I fitted standard rings and big end bearings with no rebore or grind.
About 100,000 later I fitted rings, big end, thrust and main bearings with very light hone. I also removed the ridge at the top of the bore.
About 80,000 later, oil consumption was still negligible and was mainly due to valve stem seals needing replacing.
As you can probably guess, I was working on a tight budget at the time. But as the engine was still running quite well around 80-100,000km after each ring replacement, I reckon I got away with it.
As I needed to replace the valve stem seals each time and do a valve grind, I took the pistons out the top rather than try the bottom.

[mcrover]

I dont think you will find anyone who would have wasted that much time in doing that, it would take nothing more than removing the head and cost you a head gasket to do it properly and if your going to rebuild the thing at a later date, just do the crank bearings then as if you are going to do half a reasonable job of it including measuring and making sure you have the right shells then you need the crank out anyway and that means you have to pull the box.

I would imagine trying to get a ring compressor, piston and conrod between the crank and the bore and then being able to remove the ring compressor once installed would also be a challenge.

The only things that I have heard you can re ring in chassis with the crank in without removing the head is large earth moving equipment.

[fernockulated]

Removing the head on a Series is not a very big job.
I bought a Series III engine from a farmer who had replaced it with a Holden engine at 30,000km. As they were mostly paddock kilometres, I reckoned that was about 100,000.
I fitted standard rings and big end bearings with no rebore or grind.
About 100,000 later I fitted rings, big end, thrust and main bearings with very light hone. I also removed the ridge at the top of the bore.
About 80,000 later, oil consumption was still negligible and was mainly due to valve stem seals needing replacing.
As you can probably guess, I was working on a tight budget at the time. But as the engine was still running quite well around 80-100,000km after each ring replacement, I reckon I got away with it.
As I needed to replace the valve stem seals each time and do a valve grind, I took the pistons out the top rather than try the bottom.

Did similar with ol Moby my series 2a,when I bought it home the oil rings were almost non-existent,so removed the head and sump and popped the pistons out the top and re-ringed using 40 thou oversize :eek: (I did say they were almost non-existent!!)done on an extremely tight budget and needing to get it on road and rego-ed, figured I would do a proper job down the track when needed,but it went well rite up till i sold her and is still going strong so i believe,BUT,if you are gunna do it ,do it once and do it right!

[Tank]

Never done it on a landy but did it on my mates 4.1 crossflow xc falcon, you just rotate the crank till the pin is horizontal and then you can drop the piston and rod out thru the sump.
I just went outside and tried to pull a piston and rod assembly out the bottom end of a 4.1 crossflow falcon engine, BTW without the crank. It is impossible, you cannot even get a piston between the main bearing webs, it is nearly 1/2" narrower than the piston and that's with no crank, your mates 4.1 must have had rubber pistons, Regards Frank.

[rovercare]

I just went outside and tried to pull a piston and rod assembly out the bottom end of a 4.1 crossflow falcon engine, BTW without the crank. It is impossible, you cannot even get a piston between the main bearing webs, it is nearly 1/2" narrower than the piston and that's with no crank, your mates 4.1 must have had rubber pistons, Regards Frank.

Hahahahah That will take some talking out off:D

[Michael2]

I once did rings and big ends when I should have done pistons too. I must admit I bought the rings from Four Wheel Drives in Melb and they were made in Brazil:mad:. Three years later the the rings had a 3mm gap:o. I was going through oil, but several engine experts told me I wasn't as the exhaust was clear. It's just the the 2.25 burned the oil so efficiently.

I think your budget fix will probably be okay, but check and if you need to attend to pistons, you may as well do it now. Also spend the extra $20 on some US made rings.

[olmate]

You can getthe gear out through the bottom but its a lot easier putting the stuff back if you get the head off. My series 2A motor was rebuilt recently and most pf the components bought through fwd in Melbourne went back to them (as they were not up to standard - out of spec in some cases). Out of two sets of big end bolts - I managed to get the eight I needed.

I chose 'heperlite' pistons and a good quality set of rings (as discussed above). My biggest problem was that the big-ends were out of round, once I worked that out - things went together fine.

[loanrangie]

Hahahahah That will take some talking out off:D


Not that i feel the need to answer any of your shiat, but i actually just called my mate and he said we actually pulled them out the top of the block, we just honed it without removing it from the car. Well it was 19 years ago when you were still ****ing in your pants :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p.

[rovercare]

Not that i feel the need to answer any of your shiat, but i actually just called my mate and he said we actually pulled them out the top of the block, we just honed it without removing it from the car. Well it was 19 years ago when you were still ****ing in your pants :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p.

That's the joys of taking advice from a forum, unfortunately some information is a little........incorrect;)

Whats to say I ever stopped ****ing in my pants:o

[Tank]

Not that i feel the need to answer any of your shiat, but i actually just called my mate and he said we actually pulled them out the top of the block, we just honed it without removing it from the car. Well it was 19 years ago when you were still ****ing in your pants :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p.
None of the $h!t came from my end sport, 19 years ago, sonny, I was 41 years old, Regards Frank.

[mcrover]

That's the joys of taking advice from a forum, unfortunately some information is a little........incorrect;)

Whats to say I ever stopped ****ing in my pants:o


Ouch you copped it there Matt.

I thought you just needed a shower up at sheepyard.:eek:

[rovercare]

None of the $h!t came from my end sport, 19 years ago, sonny, I was 41 years old, Regards Frank.

Pretty sure that was solely directed at myself, at 23, he doesn't like the idea of any correction made by me and when I it the nail, the age card is played;)

[mcrover]

Not that i feel the need to answer any of your shiat, but i actually just called my mate and he said we actually pulled them out the top of the block, we just honed it without removing it from the car. Well it was 19 years ago when you were still ****ing in your pants :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p.

Dont get too up set mate, you got to expect to cop a bit of shiat for that one...:D

You could just say fine I was wrong but was 19 years ago and Im an old fart with memory problems but you went that way which is going to make people think your a little lacking in the tact department.

[Tank]

Pretty sure that was solely directed at myself, at 23, he doesn't like the idea of any correction made by me and when I it the nail, the age card is played;)
rovercare, my reply was directed to loanrangie, Regards Frank.

[loanrangie]

Dont get too up set mate, you got to expect to cop a bit of shiat for that one...:D

You could just say fine I was wrong but was 19 years ago and Im an old fart with memory problems but you went that way which is going to make people think your a little lacking in the tact department.

No i just dont appreciate his i know f%%cking everything comments when all he has to say is i dont agree and keep his smart A comments to himself, i take a joke like the next guy but constant digs when i dont even know him are not welcome.My experiences and opinions are as valid as anyone else regardless if anyone else agrees or not
Tank, it wasnt directed at you, i actually called my mate after i read your post as i was sure we took them out the bottom but it may have been one of his other crapbox cars we went in via the sump.
Anyway anti hijack off, Garry take the head off as its easier in the long run.

[rovercare]

:D...

[mcrover]

:D...

LR, I dont know you either but I do know Matt and Im sorry to tell you but there are not many people on here that are as knolageable as he is especially for his age.

Ive been a mechanic for 3/4s of his life and Im happy to ask his opinion as he knows his ***** and Im not imbarrist about it or ashamed as you should learn something new everyday.

If you dont like having people have wise cracks about your posts then there is solutions, dont post things that are incorrect or at least post that your not 100% on it or only post about things you know everything about.

People take the p!ss out of eachother on here all the time, I think you need to have a bit thicker skin.

[101RRS]

Anyway anti hijack off, Garry take the head off as its easier in the long run.
Yeah - I agree - just looking at options as I had heard that going through the bottom was a quick and dirty solution to a full rebuild which I am not going to do. In my experience the more you remove the more you find wrong. The last 2.25 I rebuilt, the head was fine when in place but when I went to put it back on I found that in the process of removing it had warped - needed a bit more than a skim - more of a shave - but when it all went back together, recon block, pistons, carby, dist, shaved head, standard thickness head gasket and extractors it went like a rocket (why would u ever bother with a holden engine) but I had to stop using standard fuel and had to switch to super - modern 98 octane would have been great.

My current 2 litre starts first go and when warm settles to a nice idle but has a little smoke - bitta blue and a bitta black - I haven't looked at the carby or the dist or the compression but I do know that the engine oil is perfectly clear and is remaining so, so maybe I don't need to do anything with rings etc and maybe the blue smoke is just valve seals - I cannot take it for a drive to see what happens when driving.

As I said - I need to drop the sump so was looking at options for easy things to do - I need to do all the routine engine checks but need to look at a couple of other things before the engine.

Thanks to everyone for you comments - I appreciate it.

Also based on your comments, 4wd spares/Landyspares in Melbourne seem to be a hit and miss affair.

Cheers

Garry

[andy_d110]

Did you manage to have a win with your re ring job? My 2 litre is in a similar boat, smoky exhaust, low compression, pressurised crank case blowing out HEAPs of smoke :o

How did you go for new rings, bearings etc ? Can you recommend a supplier?

Its like a bastardised version of a knitting club / days of our lives on here sometimes with all the bitching.

Andy.