Pyrometer in a TD5 defender

[wayne]

Did a search but cant find any info on any one fitting a pyrometer to a TD5 defender.
(A) was it difficult
(b) did you fit it before or after the turbo
(C)did you find a 52mm gauge ,if so where did you find it
(D) Is this a worthwhile mod and are you:D:D with this mod

[Sandtoyz]

A/ don't know - still to do it...
- it requires turbo/manifold removal to drill and tap fitting (well to clean the swarf out anyhow!)
- plus a location to mount the gauge.
B/ Think it should go before turbo, so it measures EGT from motor not after turbo.
C/ I have a VDO unit, there are other makes too.
D/ I should have done this already, as this will tell you how well(or not) your motor tune is.

[LandyAndy]

Leo109 is your man.
If he doesnt see this send him a PM.
Andrew

[LRHybrid100]

DiscoWhite has one in his D90.

I will watch with interest what Leo109 has to say!!!

LRH

[rick130]

and this is Ian's/Leo 109's website. http://www.thermoguard.com.au/

[tombraider]

A/ don't know - still to do it...
- it requires turbo/manifold removal to drill and tap fitting (well to clean the swarf out anyhow!)
- plus a location to mount the gauge.
B/ Think it should go before turbo, so it measures EGT from motor not after turbo.
C/ I have a VDO unit, there are other makes too.
D/ I should have done this already, as this will tell you how well(or not) your motor tune is.

I know this has been discussed before and I found this to be quite interesting!

Whilst preparing to install all my extras I was looking at the manifold and the job ahead! Debating the in manifold or in exhaust mounting option.
So I went to a few manufacturers sites and found this...

VDO states in its fitting instructions (I downloaded them the other day) that the EGT/Pyro sensor is to be fitted 100mm downstream from the turbo.

Hmmmmm....

Makes it easy I think!

[rick130]

<snip>
VDO states in its fitting instructions (I downloaded them the other day) that the EGT/Pyro sensor is to be fitted 100mm downstream from the turbo.

Hmmmmm....

Makes it easy I think!

and not as accurate as upstream. You are looking at at least 200*C lower temps there.
just my 0.02c worth.

[rick130]

from Ian's site,



There is a consensus of international sources which suggest that sustained gas temperatures in excess of 720 ºC (~1330 ºF) upstream of a diesel turbocharger will result in progressive and irreversible damage to components in contact with the gas. These may include piston crowns, exhaust valves/seats, manifold and, most commonly in the case of turbo-charged engines, the turbo-charger housing, exhaust turbine and waste gate.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/07/80.jpg A pre-turbo measurement is an 'absolute' measurement - that is, it is the actual temperature to which the turbine blade tips, the wastegate and the turbine housing are being subjected. The temperature drop across the exhaust gas turbine is difficult to quantify. It will vary with load, speed and will be different for every engine design. A post-turbo measurement requires assuming a 'worst case' temperature drop across the turbine and subtracting that from 720 ºC to arrive at a suitable limit for downstream EGT.
I have measured almost 200 ºC difference between turbo inlet and outlet temperatures on my Land Rover 2.5L 300Tdi under full load conditions, so I recommend 520 ºC (~970 ºF) downstream as a safe limit for such installations. This will be quite safe in the vast majority of cases but it is also probably overly conservative in some cases, especially large capacity, relatively low-boost (i.e. <10 psig) standard engines.
top of page (http://www.thermoguard.com.au/operate.html#Top)

and from the Banks Power website


What is the best location for the exhaust gas temperature probe on a turbo-diesel?
This question is tougher to answer than you might think. There are two ways to measure exhaust gas temperature on a diesel engine: before the turbo (turbine inlet temperature); and after the turbo (turbine outlet temperature). When reasonably convenient, we recommend measuring the turbine inlet temperature, because this is the hottest—and most meaningful—temperature when evaluating the engine's performance. But when there's not a convenient place to put a probe in the turbine inlet side of the exhaust, the alternative is to mount the probe after the turbocharger, measuring the turbine outlet temperature. But this also presents a problem. The outlet of the turbo on the Duramax engine, for example, is shaped awkwardly, and the factory turbine outlet pipe is a very non-concentric shape to accommodate the outlet, so once again, there is not a good place to install a probe until about two feet after the outlet of the turbo. By going that far downstream, the integrity of the measurement is sacrificed.
Perhaps the best recommendation is to drill and tap a hole in one of the exhaust manifolds, and install a threaded pyrometer probe in there. Just be VERY CAREFUL about not getting any metal chips in the manifold, which would cause damage to the turbocharger. About the only way to be sure of this is to pull the manifold off of the vehicle to do the drilling and tapping.

Can failure of the exhaust gas temperature probe damage the turbocharger?
This is a highly debated issue. Some of the sentiments that surround this question date back quite far. Before diesel engines became widely popular in pickup trucks, the main use for diesels was in the long-haul trucking industry. Years ago, when truckers began to use pyrometers on their engines, the most logical place to position the probe was in the exhaust manifold ahead of the turbocharger, because this was the hottest portion of the exhaust stream. But the earliest probes that were used had exposed junctions, and the weakness of this design would sometimes fatigue and fail under the high heat conditions. A failed probe would inevitably cause expensive damage to the turbocharger. The solution to this problem was to move the thermocouple downstream of the turbocharger, thus avoiding the potential damage to the spinning turbine wheel. Knowing that the temperature would be lower in that location, it was expected that the operator would compensate for the difference by an appropriate amount. Today, the thermocouple probes that are used are commonly sheathed in a stainless steel shell that is impervious to the type of failure that an exposed junction thermocouple might experience. This makes it safe to install upstream of the turbocharger. At Banks, we typically prefer to mount the thermocouple upstream of the turbo, but this is not always convenient. In the case of the Ford Power Stroke, we opted to provide a bung in the turbine outlet pipe rather than having the customer go through the difficulty of drilling and installing a probe in a location that is hard to access. Our testing shows that the maximum allowable turbine inlet temperature of 1350 degrees is equivalent to 1050 degrees on the turbine outlet side, so that is our recommended maximum temperature when measuring in that location. The temperature differential may be broader at lower temperature ranges, but the temp that we are most concerned about is at full power.

[Ruslan]

The blanking (EGR) plate looks similar to what's on this picture

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/07/80.jpg

so could it be a good place for gas temperature probe?

[davros]

When installed before the turbo, could it be done "in situ" without removing the manifold? will any fine swarf damage the turbo or just blow through (from drilling, thread cutting etc)? I've got a TD5

Dave

[isuzurover]

When installed before the turbo, could it be done "in situ" without removing the manifold? will any fine swarf damage the turbo or just blow through (from drilling, thread cutting etc)? I've got a TD5

Dave

If you rig up a good vacuum cleaner to collect any swarf while drilling and tapping you may get away with it. But the best/proper way is to dismantle.


EDIT - and as Rick Said - BEFORE/UPSTREAM is best. Just like sticking a thermometer in your mouth (or other body cavity :eek: ) is more accurate than under your arm.

[discowhite]

old post.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php't=26499&highlight=EGT

i stuck my gauge here
http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/5102/2098102070100509853S425x425Q85.jpg

and the probe here.
http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/7498/2259352900100509853S425x425Q85.jpg

cheers phil

[wayne]

Thanks for all the info guys
I have sent an email to Leo just waiting for a reply.
now all thats left is to convince the petticoat government that this is
absolutely necessary :p:p

[LRHybrid100]

whats the thoughts about exhaust wrapping on diesels?

LRH

[discowhite]

i looked into it just after i got mine, cost $200 for a benie for the To4 size turbo. havnt done much looking into it...yet....
think its more of a petrol engine thing?

http://www.htcsafetyproducts.com.au/motorsport.htm

cheers phil

[Leo109]

Hi all,

Just found this thread and, as my name seems to have been mentioned a few times, though I'd drop in my two cents worth.

Thanks Rick for the recommendations and posting the extract from my website "Operation" page. Thanks especially for that extract from Gale Banks about thermocouple breakages. I've not seen that one before but it backs up my arguments and thoughts on the matter - even under extreme vibration and shock loading, the internal wires in a MIMS (mineral insulated, metal sheathed) would fail long before the 310 stainless steel sheath would fracture, so a catastrophic failure is extremely unlikely.

On Td5 installations in particular, a couple of notes:

It is possible and convenient to put a thermocouple through a blanking plate over the EGR port on a Td5. However, on this engine the port is on the No.1 cylinder branch so, while all cylinders' EGT should be very similar, measurement here will really only be sampling No.1 (and maybe No. 2) cylinder's EGT. But, it's still heaps better than no measurement at all!
The manifold can be drilled and tapped just prior to the turbo inlet without removing the manifold from the engine. I recommend the turbo be unbolted from the manifold and moved away just enough to allow the turbo inlet to be covered with plastic sheet and allow a short length of hose taped to a vacuum cleaner nozzle to be put into the manifold to extract swarf. [From memory, I think the oil supply pipe needs to be detached also but the outlet pipe can stay attached, but I'm not sure now.]
Before drilling, push a bit of rag up the manifold with a 'tail' hanging out, to prevent any swarf going back up the manifold. Complete drilling and tapping, vacuum out the swarf (a magnetic screwdriver tip can also help), than pull the rag out (don't forget this step!) and reconnect everything. All takes an hour or two depending on how experienced you are with the tasks involved. By the way, I supply a 1/8" BSPT male compression fitting for pre-turbo installations. A tap for this should be about $10 - $11 at places like Blackwoods.Further comments and suggestions most welcome.

[Equalizer]

Imo the important thing with the egt probe is that you do it before you modify while things are standard so as to have a base line to work from. I run mine in the down pipe have had the car from New 2004 it now runs larger intercooler. Vnt. Erg is gone I could go on but the point is the egts still max at 650 ish its done 195000. Also much easier to install in downpipe no risk to turbo etc or drill into cast manifold for that matter and then screwing a tapered thread into the cast bugger that

[Dougal]

An egt probe after the turbo is close to useless. The temp drop across the turbo continually changes.

Baselines don't matter. Absolute temperatures do.

[rick130]

What Dougal said (and yes, I'm aware most tuning crowds/turbo shops install in the dump but it doesn't make it right)

Drilling and taping above the turbo isn't a biggy, just remove the turbo and grease on the bit and tap reduces/almost eliminates dropped swarf.

[Dougal]

The exhaust side of a turbo will handle fine cast-iron swarf anyway. They deal with bigger chunks of carbon without problems.
It'll simply be blown out on startup.

[Equalizer]

Not saying it wrong in manifold I'm saying it will read higher and fluctuate more both positions will give you a guide. What temps do you get with the probe in manifold do have to lift Off the throttle to Keep it down when car is working hard. If your happy to play round with mixture without knowing what ur standard temps are than have at it, it's ur car.

[Dougal]

Standard temps don't matter. The egt limits of diesel engines are very well known. They can only be accurately measured preturbo.
Backing off the pedal is for those with unsafe tunes.

[Equalizer]

Agreed on unsafe tunes what temp do you get with probe in manifold? Under 750 no problems

[Dougal]

Agreed on unsafe tunes what temp do you get with probe in manifold? Under 750 no problems

I tune for 750c max. My isuzu had no problem with that sustained. Put your own safety factor on that.

[Equalizer]

So 750 just before turbo 650 just after what's the big deal

[Dougal]

So 750 just before turbo 650 just after what's the big deal

Your 100 degree drop is fiction. That's the problem. It can be up to 300c. That's the problem.

[Equalizer]

Not fiction 650 is max i get on td5 after turbo. Do you agree The further you get from compression the lower the temp if i was to put two probes in one at manifold one as close to just after turbo as i can i would get one high reading one lower reading the difference would be fairly uniform so a td5 like my mates with a probe in manifold sits at about 450 to 500c at 100kmr and my sitting at 100 does 300 to 350c. One location is no more right than the other you just need to know what your temps normal ly are and if put in before you remap or put a larger intercooler then you can see if temps have gone up or down.

[strangy]

Your 100 degree drop is fiction. That's the problem. It can be up to 300c. That's the problem.

Agreed and proven with the TD5's here boasting identical map, boost and IC.
The only difference was probe location.
The EGT post turbo was more the 200 degree different.

650 post turbo is guaranteed approaching 900 pre turbo.

[Dougal]

Not fiction 650 is max i get on td5 after turbo. Do you agree The further you get from compression the lower the temp if i was to put two probes in one at manifold one as close to just after turbo as i can i would get one high reading one lower reading the difference would be fairly uniform so a td5 like my mates with a probe in manifold sits at about 450 to 500c at 100kmr and my sitting at 100 does 300 to 350c. One location is no more right than the other you just need to know what your temps normal ly are and if put in before you remap or put a larger intercooler then you can see if temps have gone up or down.

Why are you even arguing this? A price fitted after the turbo is a waste of time. The temp difference is dynamic, not at all fixed.

[Equalizer]

Cause I disagree with what ur saying. you say it's useless to have probe post turbo I say you will just have a different reading a lower one and just as useable as the higher one. But I've had enough fun peace man.

[Dougal]

Cause I disagree with what ur saying. you say it's useless to have probe post turbo I say you will just have a different reading a lower one and just as useable as the higher one. But I've had enough fun peace man.

If you read 650C post-turbo, is it 750C or 950C at the turbo inlet?

Answer. You don't know and you can't tell.

If you read 750C pre-turbo. Then it is 750C pre-turbo.

[Tombie]

Dougal

Don't challenge an unarmed man to a battle of wits...

If that's what he wants to think let him.

[DeeJay]

Go Dougal !!!

Equalizer-- we have a few very knowledgeable posters on this forum, Dougal being the Turbo Guru. Listen & learn mate..;)

[robbotd5]

Let's agree then that the best location for the probe is in the manifold then. My probe is in the dump pipe at the moment but eventually I will relocate it to the manifold. Probably at the same time I fit a VNT. By the way, the most ive ever gone is around 450 degrees C. That's on a big climb with the van on like Bulli pass or the climb out of Byron Bay southbound. Every time a change down and a drop in speed reigns in the temp quicksmart. When towing I drive by the pyro and boost gauges.
Regards
Robbo

[d@rk51d3]

Your 100 degree drop is fiction. That's the problem. It can be up to 300c. That's the problem.


Agreed and proven with the TD5's here boasting identical map, boost and IC.
The only difference was probe location.
The EGT post turbo was more the 200 degree different.

650 post turbo is guaranteed approaching 900 pre turbo.

I've seen differences of up to 500 degrees. (granted, not a TD5 though - still domestic vehicle).
Another problem I've noted too, is that a post turbo reading can fluctuate quite wildly.

A Post Turbo installation just makes no sense, unless it's physically impossible for you to do otherwise. In which case you need to take your readings with a pinch of salt.

[Equalizer]

You dont sound witty just insulting. Try to look at it like this one location measures inlet turbo temp one measures outlet turbo temps.you can work with either one most industrial machinery I've worked on have post some stationary constant load machines take a reading in front of each pot, the latest liebherr cranes ( which run Mercedes engines) I drive, have them post turbo I'm sure the entire Mercedes engineers aren't wrong are they. not one location is absolutely the only correct one. Even in manifold placement if one probe is placed further away from compression chamber it will read slightly different.

[Tombie]

You dont sound witty just insulting.

Well bloody listen to the advice given.

[Dougal]

You dont sound witty just insulting. Try to look at it like this one location measures inlet turbo temp one measures outlet turbo temps.you can work with either one most industrial machinery I've worked on have post some stationary constant load machines take a reading in front of each pot, the latest liebherr cranes ( which run Mercedes engines) I drive, have them post turbo I'm sure the entire Mercedes engineers aren't wrong are they. not one location is absolutely the only correct one. Even in manifold placement if one probe is placed further away from compression chamber it will read slightly different.

The mercedes engineers are most interested in the exhaust temp headed into the exhaust filters. Those probes are not fitted to monitor safe operating temps, the engine is already running a constrained A/F ratio which they know is safe.

You must understand the application before you can apply it to a new situation.
Measuring EGT on a tuned automotive engine is very different to monitoring stationary industrials.

[Equalizer]

Thats right advice/opinion not gospel. not just Mercedes most of our trucks run post and the drivers are told to drive to them the turbo timers are also hooked up to egts. Not saying you 're /wrong in manifold but neither is post turbo wrong just different. On mine td5 I work to 650 post if it was in manifold I would work to maybe 900. Whats so hard with that.

[Dougal]

If you want to talk gospel, then you're spinning creationism.

650c post isn't a good thing.

[dswatts]

If you want to talk gospel, then you're spinning creationism.

650c post isn't a good thing.

Or cremationism:o

[isuzurover]

... On mine td5 I work to 650 post if it was in manifold I would work to maybe 900. ...

So 750 is now 900???


So 750 just before turbo 650 just after what's the big deal

[BigBlackDog]

You're a patient man dougal!
Does the waste gate position have a direct effect on the egt differential pre- and post- turbine?
Fun fact - Lycoming aircraft piston engines, turbo charged models, contain the egt probe right above the turbine inlet. That's with a single probe. Alternately a multi probe setup will contain a probe in the exhaust manifold just after the exhaust valve, one on each cylinder. This is the safest option as you can monitor each cylinder for excessively different temperatures.
Temperatures on turbo models redline at 1650F, 900C. Max continuous at 1550F, 850C. At those temperatures the manifolds glow bright orange. Looks cool at night

[Equalizer]

Its been at 650 max from brand new so best you work that out with landrover i've done 195000 a good chunk of that towing a camper and the 750 comparison was from when i asked what tombie was getting for his max temp but he was referring to his isuzu and i the td5 apologies if it confused the topic. Look its just a guide for you to drive or modify by long as you know what ur car does you can work with either

[Equalizer]

If you want to talk gospel, then you're spinning creationism.

650c post isn't a good thing.

And Thanks dougal you just proved the point i,m trying to make . You believe 650 post turbo isnt good. So you agree Its an indicator of egts post turbo. So same as in manifold if ur normal max temp is x then you notice it goes up from x then its done what its ment to. post turbo will always give its temps and pre turbo will give its temps both will be constitant in it temps to the load of the engine they are installed on one will be high one will be low. Surely this is a fair comment.

[Dougal]

And Thanks dougal you just proved the point i,m trying to make . You believe 650 post turbo isnt good. So you agree Its an indicator of egts post turbo. So same as in manifold if ur normal max temp is x then you notice it goes up from x then its done what its ment to. post turbo will always give its temps and pre turbo will give its temps both will be constitant in it temps to the load of the engine they are installed on one will be high one will be low. Surely this is a fair comment.

Nope.

This is like talking to a chain smoker.
*Cough, hack* I'm perfectly *splutter* healthy *hack* I'm going to *cough* keep smoking.

[Equalizer]

Your words bud "650 post turbo isnt a good thing" .In my td5 i,ve had the egt in for most of it 195000 ks itsmax temps have remand the same for the first half while standard when i had it remaped they went up when i put the intercooler in they went down good enough for me.

[Dougal]

Your words bud "650 post turbo isnt a good thing" .


Because it's not a good thing.



In my td5 i,ve had the egt in for most of it 195000 ks itsmax temps have remand the same for the first half while standard when i had it remaped they went up when i put the intercooler in they went down good enough for me.

The harder the turbo works, the bigger the temp drop across it.
You may have had 650/750 stock, now you've probably got 650/850 or even 650/950 in some circumstances.

[rick130]

[snip]
and pre turbo will give its temps both will be constitant in it temps to the load of the engine they are installed on one will be high one will be low. Surely this is a fair comment.

This is the issue though, it isn't consistent, ie. it's not a constant gradient or TD across the turbo under load, it varies.

[Equalizer]

Look mate this is how i use mine i know that at 100 on flat ground no head wind i get about 280c if it goes up enough that I hink its not what it normally would be maybe i,ll stop check the intake i use it to try keep my milage down when towing I try keep it under 350. It works. And 650 is the max not the norm 195000 lots a towing and no troubles maybe i,ll let you know in another 100000. Also when i removed the turbo at almost 150000 i,d haveto check service book for exact it was in good condition in fact its on my 130.anyway enough for tonight whats australia 8hrs infront of germany or behind dont you all have jobs to do.

[Tombie]

Analogy if I may...

Coolant temps post radiator remain almost constant (some slight variation)

Yet internally generate engine temps can be significantly higher.


The pre turbo figures can vary markedly and the pistons and turbine itself are soaking this up, masking the true figure when read post turbo.


A limiting tune can prevent this - such as in SME etc. but not the case in all instances.