Is the original 4wd now the best?

[scrambler]

With all the discussion about new Defenders, and whether there would be an all-new one in 2012, I was struck by Jeep's approach with the Wrangler.

For the first time they now offer a long wheel base version - and it is long at 113 inches.

Jeep have the top-of-the line Rubicon version for $44,000 (or $46,000 with auto) and for that price you get front and rear lockers, remote disconnecting front sway bar, removable roof and doors, along with all the fruit of a modern vehicle (7 speaker stereo, electric everything, even side curtain airbags if you want them). The approach, departure and rampover angles aren't quite to Defender standards, nor is the towing capacity (2300kg), but then the price is pretty keen - try getting a fully locked new Defender for what the Jeep is listed at.

This is an all-new model - wider, longer than the previous, curved (but still folding) windscreen.

IMHO it's a lesson for Land Rover - move the Defender with the times, because Jeep think there's a market for exactly this type of vehicle.

[landyfromanuthaland]

Doesnt anybody else think that 4wds have evolved beyond the word useful? I mean some of the 4wds are nice looking and very well appointed but my 3 will leave em for dead with ability, ok she may not ride that well or give u a comfy ride and if want aircon u have open the cowls, windows and back tailgate but isnt this the essence of a 4wd, we used to have a 94 Patrol, big motor at 4.2 7 seats but u had enuff room in the back for the family cat or a small bag so taking a trailer was essential if u didnt have racks,it still didnt drive that well and the economy was rotton and wasnt especially brilliant in the bush, I enjoy hunting so withthe landy I can pop the door tops off and have plenty of room to wave the old Lee Enfield around at the roos, it doesnt matter if I scratch the landy I wont cry over it, if it breaks down I generally get it going fairly quickly, whereas if u have a computor flake out or your EFI gives u drama out in the scrub u are done for, the current batch of 4wds look good on the suburban rodes and thats where most stay, I see plenty of Discos being used as shopping trolleys, who else thinks 4 wds have peaked and should Landy follow down the same path. Maybe I just dont like evolution, but far as crawling around the sticks of outback South Oz deserts or Cape York or toddling around the highways taking in the sights I am happy to do so in the old Antichrist, least I own it LOL!

[spudboy]

That's almost $10,000 cheaper than a new Defender, which has no diff locks, etc etc. Pretty good value.

[100I]

You're not alone, I thought they looked good on paper too. My only dislikes were the wheelbase a shade too long and it just doesn't quite look right, maybe it would grow on you though.

[blitz]

I guess it's all about economics, most people who buy 4wd's live in big cities and expect all the comfort fruit that comes in a 2wd so things like lokkers etc dont come into the equasion.

I think Jeep is unique in that they recognise they have a hard core following and produce a vehicle for them, wouldnt it be lovely if Landrover did the same and at a competitive price - all the off road fruit with enough comfort to get the missus / girlfriend in as well

Blythe

[Redback]

There's only one problem, the top of the range Rubicon isn't available in diesel only petrol.

Diesel CRDi is only available on the standard Wrangler.

Baz.

[landyfromanuthaland]

Ah a Darwin boy, my old trotting ground, my missus I admit doesnt like rocking and rolling in the landy but she understands the capabilities of it and sacrifces the comforts, its all part of the ride being thrown around and swimming through rivers upto the tops of the gaurds may god bless snorkels personally? u can swim around in the landy but she dries out, she has room to burm inside, I have own 2 jeeps both early 80s cherokees 1 was a 6 1 was a v8, these I think are some of the best 4wds made, handle like a car, go like a flamin rocket and good in the scrub with some comfort, old landys, patrols and cruisers are from a different era when they were built for a purpose and they fulfilled that purpose and still are 40 years later, think how many cureent plastic wonders will be giving faithfull service 40 years down the track, this is a funy topic its like the holden and ford camp.

[scrambler]

Landyf.a.l., the Wrangers are, in theory, direct competitors to the Defender 90's, and IMHO they are the reason the D90 never went well here - you could get a more Series-like experience with a Jeep than with a Defender :o

With the long wheelbase Wrangler now available, it's a direct head-to-head. The Defender is a better load-hauler. The Wrangler (in Rubicon form) is probably (dare I say it) a more capable off-road machine out-of-the-box.

I own, and drive daily, a Series 3. I have a Jap 4wd for taking the family on trips, and I'll look seriously at the Wrangler, because I can either save $15,000 and get a diesel Jeep comparable to a Defender, or $5000 and get a petrol with all the off-road fruit a man could desire. And that's comparing apples with apples, without getting into how much you save compared to a Flandie!

[solmanic]

In my opinion, Landrover should keep the Defender as far away from the Wrangler as possible. It was conceived as a utility vehicle and should remain such. The Wrangler is ONLY a recreation vehicle - can't tow much and can't carry much (even less with the roof down). From what I've seen too, the components are a notch below the design durability of the Defender, again due to the recreation bias.

The Toyota Troopie is and has always been the Defender's direct competitor. Until Landrover do something about matching Toyota's reliability and service support in rural areas, the Defender is a no-market offering which really only has us, emotional, hard-core nuts keeping it on sale at all.

The only way a D90 would ever really be considered as an alternative to a Wrangler is if they marketed a soft-top county spec. Even then I suspect people would still opt for the cheaper one.

You're right, though, the long wheelbase Wrangler just doesn't look quite right.

[Landy110]

From my experience with mates and their Jeeps it appears that they are no where near has hard wearing as Landies. I don't think a Jeep would ever last as long as a Landie. unfortunately we live in a throw away society so the cheep will appeal!
The other side of the coin is probably that Land Rover has more than enough market for their Hard Yakka range in other countries around the world and aren't that concerned with keeping market share for defenders here!
Steve.

[landyfromanuthaland]

What a pity the defence forces dont take more landys these days, they would be excellent to pick up surplus later down the track

[xsi]

Solmanic said


From what I've seen too, the components are a notch below the design durability of the Defender, again due to the recreation bias.



Im not so sure about that on the new JK Wrangler - bigger Dana Diffs and factory lockers.

... isnt it compulsory to replace landy axles as soon as the words "diff locker" are mentioned?

[Gromit68]

Has anyone actually examined a new Wrangler 4 door up close?

I have. I was interested in how they could build a similar car the the Defender for much less money.

I found one at my local Jeep dealer up on ramps. So I climbed underneath and poked around. Here's what I found:

1. The chassis is very very thin. It's the same thickness your average garden trailer is.
2. The axles are very skinny.
3. There are only drum brakes on the rear
4. There is no gearbox protection underneath

Nonetheless, it does have airbags and the interior seems to be of the same quality as the Defender - if maybe more ergonomic.

After poking around, I decided that the Defender is still very much the utilitarian vehicle whilst the Wrangler is very much a lifestyle vehicle that's cooler than the mum-mobiles getting around. The two vehicles don't really compete.

Further, the Defender continues to look like a true bargain at $48k for the new model compared to the $53k for the new Land Cruiser 5 door. If you want cloth seats, carpet, a/c and front foglights, you need to spend $58k. And you still only get a leaf sprung rear, part time 4wd and a steel body. Difflocks are even more.

The patrol is the only other vehicle to compare the Defender too, and that is also very expensive.

[scrambler]

Had a glance at the Wrangler yesterday. The comments re protection, axles etc apply to the base model. The top-of-the-range model has an improved drivetrain including lockers - at almost $10,000 more than the base model :o

Can't say I ogled the chassis, but it's not rated for the same towing or carrying weight so stands to reason it would be less strong. Might not be less durable, though, provided it's properly engineered.

The Wrangler is a vehicle that, like the Defender, can trace it's design directly to the WWII Jeep. It has moved with the times, which necissarily includes a more "recreational" slant, and the same can be said for the Defender. Where it differs, however, is in the continued value of some of the simplicity of design and flexibility of roofing/seating/doors etc which seems to elude the evolving Land Rovers.

If Jeep can go to the trouble of extending the wheelbase of the Wrangler after 60 years of civilian Jeep design, then there must be a market for vehicles something like the Defender. The question is how Land Rover can capitilise on it.

[Grumpy130]

The only thing worth noting about the new Jeep or any other 4wd for that matter is that it is either a Defender or not. If it is...good. If it is not...just ignore it :mad:

[solmanic]

The Wrangler is a vehicle that, like the Defender, can trace it's design directly to the WWII Jeep. It has moved with the times, which necissarily includes a more "recreational" slant, and the same can be said for the Defender. Where it differs, however, is in the continued value of some of the simplicity of design and flexibility of roofing/seating/doors etc which seems to elude the evolving Land Rovers.

I reckon the Wrangler is significantly further removed from the Willy's Jeep than the Defender is from the Series 1. The current models rely on merely a cosmetic homage to the original to encourage people to believe they are related. Crikey, they were orignally Fords and now they're Chryslers.

[mcrover]

Weve owned 2 Jeeps, first one (XJ)was good but not great and not greatly reliable with a tiny radiator but a big 6cyl engine and no 1st gear in the trans so bugger all engine breaking down hill.

Second was (ZG) crap, VC transfer case was crap, ECU was crap, Im only about 5' 10" or so and I used to hit my head on the roof and a number of other crappy problems.

Nothing Jeep is without it's problems and the new one will be no different in 10 years time and your right, it is weird looking.

The lockers I think are Elockers that are a great idea and with the Dana's will probably be the best bits of the car but after that, it's still a Jeep.

I supose everything is worth a look at and if you were looking for an off the shelf new car for 4wding for about 3 to 5 years over the lease period then i'd say consider it but not if you were keeping it for decades.

[rick130]

Crikey, they were orignally Fords and now they're Chryslers.

No, they were originally a Willys (the Ford GPW stands for General Purpose-Willys ;)
who were then bought by Kaiser in the fifties and sixties, then AMC through the seventies and eighties (with a brief dalliance with Renault, who designed the Quad link front end), then Jeep was cherry picked out of the smoking wreck that AMC became by Chrysler (funnily enough they were the only profitable division, sound familiar ?)

Land Rovers ownership history is just as as varied.
Originally owned by Rover, then Leyland, then BaE (British AeroSpace), BMW and now Ford.

and as for strength, my old CJ from the seventies had a Dana 44 rear end, Dana 20 t/case (could easily handle 3-400HP) and beefy AMC six with steel bash plates under everything, sump, g/box-t/case and fuel tank. The Warner T14a g/box was weak, but no worse than an R380, and the massive T98 out of the full size Jeeps with granny first (6.98:1) bolted straight in with only tail shaft mods.
Even the D30 front end was probably stronger than a Rover one.

and ever checked what gauge steel Landy use on the chassis ? it's pretty thin too, something like 2mm ;)

There was a Jeep ute design concept that débuted a week or so back based on a military Wrangler that really looked the goods.