How do you remove water from Diesel

[rjhjstr]

We're all probably aware of the old trick with petrol engines of adding metho to the tank when the petrol is contaminated with a little water. The water dissolves in the metho and is then carried through to the engine where combustion turns it to steam and out of the exhaust. Is there an equivalent trick for diesel that has a little water contamination? Obviously if there is heaps of water contamination you need to drop the sedimenter on the bottom of the fuel filter but if there is just a small amount of water contamination is there an easier option

Russell

[97discotdi]

Looking forward to your experiments, the problem with diesels is they are basicaly a positive dispacement pump due to their high compression ratios. Therefore if you put something in there that can't be burnt it tries to compress it, if it can't compress it the weakest part breaks or bends eg conrod breaks and is liberated through the block. Let me know if you come up with ideas it will stop me shi%&ng myself when I get water in my fuel.
Also a mate of mine got water in the fuel on his Jeep Cherokee diesel and it caused corrosion in the fuel p/p, he is also hands on has a milling machine, lathes etc and is no fool with engines. Answer spend $4000 or trade it in. Result new Nissan Patrol.
The Land Rover series1 300tdi has the sediment filter just after the tank and I have replaced the original filter with a Raycor filter with clear bowl at the bottom. I had a gut full of bad diesel and was ableto keep driving and dump the filters every 200k's untill the water was removed . It was still a pain in the **** but in the outback you don't have many options when buying fuel.

[JohnE]

Interesting, I was under the impression the sedimenter will remove all the water and the backup is the sump on the fuel filter, ( similar to the jap ones that have the sedimenter under the fuel filter, my pajero even had a high water indicator light in the sedimenter)

I am not sure if there is any aftermarket stuff that will do it, let us know you go, it would be a handy one to know, if it is successful.



john

[Bigbjorn]

We're all probably aware of the old trick with petrol engines of adding metho to the tank when the petrol is contaminated with a little water. The water dissolves in the metho and is then carried through to the engine where combustion turns it to steam and out of the exhaust. Is there an equivalent trick for diesel that has a little water contamination? Obviously if there is heaps of water contamination you need to drop the sedimenter on the bottom of the fuel filter but if there is just a small amount of water contamination is there an easier option

Russell

Fit a Raycor separator. They work. My experience with them is on line haul prime movers and heavy plant. There is no better diesel fuel separator/filter.

[mcrover]

Fit a Raycor separator. They work. My experience with them is on line haul prime movers and heavy plant. There is no better diesel fuel separator/filter.

I 100% agree with Brian, I have one on one of my machines and I have never had any problems with that machine with water in the system.

A sedimenter is just that, it catches heavy sediment before it goes into the filter and cant be relied upon to separate all the water from fuel but the Raycor separators do a damn good job and are easy to service as long as you put it in an accessable position.

Also a good quality fuel treatment e.g.Diesel power or Wurth have good surfactants which can clear small amounts of water in fuel but only small amounts but I would recoment separating it and still running a good treatment.

[davros]

I don't think water would cause damage re compression such as bent valves or conrods, unless it came in through the air intake in a much larger quantity than the minute puff from an injector. If it was injected the mist would amount to the same amount as the diesel mist, which is just as "compressible" (no liquids can be compressed). In fact when the diesel starts to combust, the pressure would be higher than with water (unless like water injection on a petrol vehicle the water may aid combustion).
The damage will be done to the pump, as the water has no lubricating properties and of course will be corrosive. I've even read somewhere that low sulphur diesel has been causing the odd issue with injector pumps, as the sulphur content helped with lubrication (just because I read it doesn't make it true!).

[isuzurover]

A sedimenter is just that, it catches heavy sediment before it goes into the filter and cant be relied upon to separate all the water from fuel but the Raycor separators do a damn good job and are easy to service as long as you put it in an accessable position.


Sedimenters collect large particles AND water which is in droplets large enough to settle. Modern water separators hower use coarse filter media to coalesce water droplets so they will settle. This technology usually is the most effective.

There are a few companies who make very good fuel/water separators, and some of them are possibly better than the Raycor (Made by Parker Hannifin).

[Bigbjorn]

Sedimenters collect large particles AND water which is in droplets large enough to settle. Modern water separators hower use coarse filter media to coalesce water droplets so they will settle. This technology usually is the most effective.

There are a few companies who make very good fuel/water separators, and some of them are possibly better than the Raycor (Made by Parker Hannifin).

Raycor separators have a centrifugal section like a Donaldson air filter which spins the heavy bits out and down into a clear bowl. They also have a filter element. Water is heavy and is spun out and down. Raycor also make a lot of tricky stuff like fleet storage maintenance installations that circulate and clean & warm bulk fuel, and installations that clean and meter waste oil into bulk fuel storage. Big fleets in the USA love these as they can burn their waste oil in their diesel engines. East Texas Motor Freight had over 6000 prime movers on the road and had Raycors on all trucks and in all depots with bulk fuel, as did Ryder, Winnet, Pacific Intermountain, Roadway, Georgia Mail, Chicago Limited and other small USA fleets.

[Andrew]

"Therefore if you put something in there that can't be burnt it tries to compress it, if it can't compress it the weakest part breaks or bends eg conrod breaks and is liberated through the block. Let me know if you come up with ideas it will stop me shi%&ng myself when I get water in my fuel. "


If he had that much water in his diesel, I think his feet would be wet, and we would be discussing how to drain a fuel tank and a sump and a diff and a gearbox and a footwell.

I would suggest that you undo the plug in your fuel tank and drain out say 5-10 litres, then drain the the water trap and keep changing your filters and draining your water trap until there is no further water showing.

[Tote]

Many moons ago when I was a cockey's son we managed to stuff all the injectors on a FIAT tractor by letting bad fuel get to the injector pump. Even the smallest amount can cause corrosion and with the tolerances in the injectors a small amount of corrosion is enough to alter the spray pattern enough to prevent the engine running.
Was an expensive mistake corrected by being more vigilant with draining the sedimenter bowl and keeping the tank full of diesel overnight. Interestingly enough it was a direct injection diesel long before that technology became popular (1979)

Regards,
Tote

[p38arover]

How many drain the sedimenter on the Disco?

I haven't told my daughter about that. I don't know how often one should do it.

I wish I'd had time to put a CAV fuel filter with water separator into the Disco. Even if I tell her to, it won't get done.

Ron

[mcrover]

Sedimenters collect large particles AND water which is in droplets large enough to settle. Modern water separators hower use coarse filter media to coalesce water droplets so they will settle. This technology usually is the most effective.

There are a few companies who make very good fuel/water separators, and some of them are possibly better than the Raycor (Made by Parker Hannifin).

Wasnt that just 2 ways of saying the same thing.

The Raycor water separators and others that I have had dealings with that I dont know the name of because they come with this type of machines do exactly what they are meant to do.

The best way to get rid of water in fuel is to drain the tank and then clean it out with a rag if you can get in there.

refill and your done.

For safety sake, if you think your likely to pick up bad fuel the fit a water separator and service it regularly.

[mcrover]

How many drain the sedimenter on the Disco?

I haven't told my daughter about that. I don't know how often one should do it.

I wish I'd had time to put a CAV fuel filter with water separator into the Disco. Even if I tell her to, it won't get done.

Ron

I do every service, takes about 2 mins if its done regularly and it's not covered in 10 years worth of mud like the first time I did it.

[olmate]

Many moons ago when I was a cockey's son we managed to stuff all the injectors on a FIAT tractor by letting bad fuel get to the injector pump. Even the smallest amount can cause corrosion and with the tolerances in the injectors a small amount of corrosion is enough to alter the spray pattern enough to prevent the engine running.
Was an expensive mistake corrected by being more vigilant with draining the sedimenter bowl and keeping the tank full of diesel overnight. Interestingly enough it was a direct injection diesel long before that technology became popular (1979)

This damage is easily done to a diesel pump / injectors. Raycor separators are a very effective way to sort this issue out and I would recommend one. Drain the tank, fit the seperator and (if you have water/fuel mix in your lines) pump it out before kicking it in the guts. I dont believe that you will bend anything unless you are really working the motor but you will need to thoroughly ensure that the water has been removed prior to effecting the pump and / or injectors.

[Bushie]

How many drain the sedimenter on the Disco?

I haven't told my daughter about that. I don't know how often one should do it.

I wish I'd had time to put a CAV fuel filter with water separator into the Disco. Even if I tell her to, it won't get done.

Ron

I drain the one on the defender regularly, then about once a year I take it off and give it a proper clean out. A tip though, get a new (or replacement) drain plug they tend to get a bit brittle.


Martyn

[p38arover]

I drain the one on the defender regularly, then about once a year I take it off and give it a proper clean out. A tip though, get a new (or replacement) drain plug they tend to get a bit brittle.

I removed the sedimentor bowl and cleaned it out before I went to Derby, The bowl is quite corroded. The drain plug needed easing out carefully.

I had better price/buy a complete unit and post it up to my daughter.

Ron

[rick130]

I drain the one on the defender regularly, then about once a year I take it off and give it a proper clean out. A tip though, get a new (or replacement) drain plug they tend to get a bit brittle.


Martyn


IIRC, it is a 5/16 UNC thread.

I replaced mine with a stainless bolt years ago.

[rick130]

we managed to stuff all the injectors on a FIAT tractor <snip> Interestingly enough it was a direct injection diesel long before that technology became popular (1979)

Regards,
Tote

the 55hp engine in my old Fiat 550 from @ 1970 is also direct injected

[davros]

Interesting article on biodiesel at:
http://www.sydneybiodiesel.com/content/view/56/9/

Contained this info...


WATER CONTENT

Although trace amounts of water in biodiesel may seem prima facie relevant, when one looks at the moisture issue in more depth it doesn’t, shall we say, hold water. I draw your attention to the work of Lubrizoil and Citgo in America and CamTec in Europe. Those firms have developed diesel fuels that incorporate large quantities of water in the fuel. The fuel utilizes chemical emulsifiers to keep the water in suspension. The water content of the fuels can reach 20 PERCENT!



Compared to the large quantity of water used in those fuels, the miniscule amounts of moisture that may result from the biodiesel production process, including washing without drying, is so small as to be negligible.



Let’s look at this water issue more closely. Although biodiesel is much more environmentally friendly than petroleum diesel, the only emission pollutant that exceeds the levels of petroleum diesel is nitrogen oxides. The use of a bit of water in the fuel reduces the nitrogen oxide emissions of the fuel. So, if we were really trying to design a more environmentally friendly biodiesel fuel then we should actually be encouraging a bit of water in the biodiesel.


Interesting...

Dave

[p38arover]

I drain the one on the defender regularly, then about once a year I take it off and give it a proper clean out. A tip though, get a new (or replacement) drain plug they tend to get a bit brittle.

NRC9708 - Sedimentor, complete about $190
37H7920 - Plug, drain $2
R522940 - Washer (for drain plug) $1
37H770L - O-Ring (top bolt) $1
AAU9903 - Ring, Sealing, Top (bowl) $1.10
AAU9902 - Ring, Sealing, Bottom (bowl) $1.50

One can't buy the bowl separately.

Ron

[isuzurover]

IIRC, it is a 5/16 UNC thread.


5/16 UNC is correct. I bought one a few weeks ago. Rick - do you do anything to make sure yours doesn't rattle loose (i.e. loctite or a lockwire)? I notice the original plastic one is made so it cannot turn freely - so I was worrying about the stainless one coming loose on corrugated roads.

Brian -
I am sure Racor make some good stuff and I am not familiar with their water separators. However I have seen some dubious products made by them over the years... I know someone who works for them in the US - I have my doubts about a company that proudly claims that they don't do R&D, they just do engineering...

The effectiveness of centrifugal type collectors depends on the size of the water droplets - modern developments in hydrophobic and superhydrophobic (low energy) surfaces have enabled the development of filter media which is amazingly efficient at coalescing water dropets so they settle out under gravity. Some hydrophobic filter media works so well that water droplets will not pass through it. So all I am trying to say is there have been a lot of new developments in recent years.

I am sure the "oil burning" equipment you describe would be illegal in many places now as it wouldn't pass emissions regulations - not 100% sure though.

[rick130]

Ben, I used to use a dab of silicone on the outside of the head and onto the bowl (also known as poor man's loctite.) Bolt is a stainless socket head cap screw.
I'm sure that all I've done in the last few years is just tighten it up and used either a fibre or copper washer under the head.





Hopefully it'll be serviced this weekend, so I'll find out.....:angel:

[Bigbjorn]

Can't see any problem at all in burning used oil. After all, distillate is a light oil and the proportions of used lube oil collected from a fleet would be miniscule compared to distillate usage in a large line haul fleet. But every litre of sump oil burnt is a litre's value saved.

Raycor separators, as I said earlier, work. Been there with heavy trucks and plant. They cure dirty fuel problems. Perhaps greasy handed engineers out in the field with the problems have a better idea of the solution than white coats in laboratories.

[isuzurover]

Can't see any problem at all in burning used oil. After all, distillate is a light oil and the proportions of used lube oil collected from a fleet would be miniscule compared to distillate usage in a large line haul fleet. But every litre of sump oil burnt is a litre's value saved.

Raycor separators, as I said earlier, work. Been there with heavy trucks and plant. They cure dirty fuel problems. Perhaps greasy handed engineers out in the field with the problems have a better idea of the solution than white coats in laboratories.

Sump oil is absolutely full of soot, and also contains wear metals. Don't know if it is still legal - not sure.

When regulations came in for large diesels that the breathers could no longer be vented to atmosphere, the manufacturers quickly found that the small amount of soot-laden blowby oil mist would kill the turbocharger bearings/bushes very quickly. For this reason all large/heavy duty diesels in Europe and the US now have CCV (closed crankcase ventillation) filters fitted. This small amount of oil mist was also causing difficulties in meeting emissions regulations.

Primary diesel soot particles are 30 NANOMETERS (edit) or so in diameter - too small to be removed by filters. Although they are very small, they are good at doing damage. I wouldn't like them in my expensive fuel pump and injectors, even in low concentrations.

Waste oil is usually recycled or burnt in industrial furnaces (as a fuel), where any emissions can be properly treated/controlled.