Disk front end for a 2a??

[stomps]

Howdy,
my 2a has a 302 cleaveland and goes pretty well, it is how it stops that is the issue. Does anyone have any thoughts, ideas, tips, or comments. Good bad or ugly comments are more than welcome as I am only at the infomation gathering stage.
i am more concirned with the technical aspects rather than every one telling me that it will need a eng cert; however, I am also interested in the legalities.

I would much appreciate any input.

Stomps.

[LandyAndy]

Hi Mate
I too have a Series with a 302 Cleveland.
Mine is in limbo,started a full rebuild and got carried away with the bodylift,it will be too hard to licsence in WA now.
BRAKES.
Discs are EXPENSIVE,search Ti-Console on google,they do a bolt on kit.The have an Aussie distributer.
What front drums are you running???
I up-graded mine to original 6cyl Series fronts,they are 3 inches wide instead of the standard 2 1/4 inch wide shoes,a huge increase in braking surface area.
Mine are untried,but my Bro has a 2a wagon with a worked 4.1 and auto,his stops will with this combo.
You need the following ex an original 6cyl or station wagon Series.3" drums/shoes/backing plates/wheel cylinders(if you have an early Ser2a or SWB ).Its a simple change over,use the Ser3 or county dual system booster too,it will improve your brakes hugely!!!
Goodluck
Andrew

[UncleHo]

G'day Stomps :)

I will agree with LandyAndy on that one, the 3" inch front drums with boosted M/cylinder went right through from the S 3, Stage 1 V8 and 110 county in V8 and Diesel 3.9, you will have to get the Ser3 pedalbox assembly complete,(it's a straight swap,6 bolts and a 1/4 turn) and the right hand guard, as it has the cutaway for the Booster unit and guard strengthing ;)

cheers
Uncle Ho

[stomps]

Guys, thanks for your thoughts.

I will grab a tape measure tommorow and measure the width.
Even though it is a 2a it was rebuilt in the early 80s buy a bloke who put in state of the art stuff (then series 3) v8 diffs etc I wouldnt be surprised if this stuff had already been done. Only tommorow will tell.
Ive been told to put in a second master running the front lines which should give me better stopping power. Any thoughts??

Thanks Stomps

[scrambler]

Comparing the disk front County with the drum front Stage 1, the County had slightly better pedal feel, but the Stage 1 pulls up very well. I've never had a practical reason to seriously consider converting to disks.

Do your brakes have the vacuum booster? THAT makes a huge difference! If you're running 3 inch drums without the booster, then that might be your problem!

The best arguement for disks that I've seen is that the drums, having double leading shoes, don;t stop as well in reverse, but that isn't your complaint.

[The Sheik Of Scruby Creek]

I had a series 2 SWB with an XB falcon 250CUI pursuit engine, electronic dizzy and yellow terra head. Used to light up all four wheels off the lights.

My point is yes stopping is an issue with the SWB's due to the single piston set up on the brakes.

My fix for it (which worked absolutley beautifully) was to install a HR Holden brake booster (they can be mounted remotely from the prake pedal) and this worked a treat.

The other option is what I did in my "bitsa" series 3 wagon.
The series 3 had the same ford engine, torro overdrive (which allowed it to do 170km/h with the 3.5:1 diffs) HR brake booster, XF falcon rear discs all round, Dyna 4 spot truck calipers on front, HZ holden calipers on the back, ZD fairlane power steering ram, home made power steering pump, It had a heap of other mods but they were the main ones, every year without fail in the Pink Slip brake test it would score 96 - 98% brake efficency

As far as the legallities, my motto has always been what the rta doesn't know doesn't hurt them.... as for when the pink slip mob asks for the engineering certificate two phrases have always worked for me "it came out like that mate" or "it passed no problems every other year" I'll be stuffed if i ever let the rego lapse though......

[stomps]

I'd say trhat there would have to be approxamatly 30% degridation of stopping power in reverse. Mind you out of all the army rovers that I have driven (especially the old 2a 106 RCL carriers "no brakes") it stops pretty well forwards. The box is a T10 auto which I pretty much change down manually and it hasnt let me down yet.
It does have a vacume booster, I'd be buggerd if it didnt. I've been told that if piggyback a second booster for the front end and utalise the existing for the rear then it will pull up quicker.

I'm not extremly distraught about its ability to pull up (although it's not great) I'm just throwing the problem in the air in the interest of betterment.

Once again thanks heaps,

Stomps.

[Slunnie]

I fitted Landcruiser axles. If it'll stop 3T of rust it'll stop my weeny Rover. :D It'll also change you diff ratios to 4.11, stud patterns to something easy to get, increase axle strength and widen the track.

[kaa45]

Try this site for info
http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/
;)

[JDNSW]

As a general comment on fitting discs to a Series Landrover - it can be done, but you have to ask whether the cost is worth it. I agree that the most practical upgrade is to fit the six cylinder front brakes plus a booster.

But perhaps most importantly, the main advantage of the discs is not that they stop better -but that they have little maintenance compared to drums (also fade less). In many cases the problem with the drum brakes is that they need adjusting/relining/freeing wheel cylinders/skimming drums/cleaning/replacing adjusters etc.

John

[Davo]

Yes, I've been looking into this as well after some water somehow got into all four wheel cylinders in the front brakes and rusted them up! I'm not sure how . . . but there's always some water to drive through up here during the wet and I mustn't have dried out the brakes before the car sat for a bit.

And I'd like to pull up a bit quicker when cattle decide to cross the road. (Without even looking, the sods!)

Then there's all those adjustments, and that diabolical design of the wheel cylinder arrangement with the lower one right next to the steering arm, so you can barely bleed the things.

I'm considering the costly but good-looking Zeus conversion. I think it's very well thought out, though you need something like Disco rims to clear the calipers. The agents here, Yican, haven't been answering calls or emails so I'm just waiting on Zeus, who are in the UK, to reply with a quote. I've pretty much decided to get the kit, hopefully in time for the next wet.

[jimbo110]

These pix are of a salisbury I bought off trade me for $100, It came off a series 111 truck with discs all around. This is the standard conversion over here, done with (I think) corona calipers. I didn't use them, and gave them to my brother who had the same discs on the front of his SWB 11A. With the discs all around on his truck, it had a tendancy to want to fire you off through the windscreen.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/08/339.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/08/340.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2007/08/341.jpg

The pix were taken while I converted the salisbury to SWB 2 years ago, so I dont have any more pix or the parts anymore but it will give you an idea anyway. :D

[Dunnie]

I fitted the different back plates and the larger 6 cylinder 12 x 3" drums plus a booster to my 1972 SIII SWB ute. It stops as good as the Defender now. Before the fix it was like the brakes on a kid's tricycle. New drums are fairly cheap. Mine came from Brit Parts, Perth and the back plates came off a bush relic with the permission of the owner who was using it as a shed. The wheel cylinders are different on the bigger units; larger volume. In my opinion this is the absolute best modification that you can make to the early brakes.

[sclarke]

The mob that makes Zeus Gears makes Disc front ends for Landy's

Link
http://www.yican.com.au/DBrakes/DBrakes.html

Dont know if there good or Crap.

Just know the Zeus Gears are not recommended... mind you i can get a set for nothing and i'm tempted.....

[nickwatson171]

I have seen adverts in the UK land rover magazines. I also think that there was an Australian source.
Nick

[Bearman]

Hi Stomps,
Some years ago I went through this dilemma with a series 3 which I converted to a Ford 351 with C4 auto. Went magnificently (surprised some Nissan and Toyota drivers). Anyhow, the only issue I had was with the brakes so after much deliberation I modified a RR front axle with brackets to fit leaf springs and put a county salisbury in the rear (both 3.54 ratio). Problem over. I also fitted a county master cylinder/booster assembly. I also fitted flares to mask the extra axle width as I didnt inform RTA. I figured as long as it was done properly they didnt have to know. Regards....Bearman

[Rangier Rover]

Standard RRC brakes are not all that flash. As I have 3 of them. 2 of them are getting Fender capipers and Disco Master cylinder. I would think well set up Six cyl or stage 1 drums will come close on stopping power.

[JDNSW]

Standard RRC brakes are not all that flash. As I have 3 of them. 2 of them are getting Fender capipers and Disco Master cylinder. I would think well set up Six cyl or stage 1 drums will come close on stopping power.

It might be worth thinking about what you want from the brakes when you start talking about "stopping power", and analyse what the difference is likely to be.

The actual ability of any braking system to stop from relatively low speeds (e.g. in traffic, avoiding wildlife, kids etc) will usually depend on the grip of the tyres plus the ability of the braking system to proportion the braking on each wheel according to load. No Series braking system is going to be particularly good in either of these respects - we usually have tyres that are less than the best, as they are compromise for whatever surface we are talking about, and as a load carrying vehicle, the loading on the front and rear axles is variable, and there is no compensating mechanism in the braking system, so either braking on the rear is less than adequate when loaded (standard setup), or it will lock well before the front when empty. The standard Series brakes are as good as the tyres and proportioning for load, so no change is justified on these grounds.

However, pedal pressure for a particular braking effort is often seen as the sole criterion for "stopping power", and this can be simply reduced by fitting a booster. It also varies with the type of lining and the ratio of master cylinder area to wheel cylinder area, and the leverage of the pedal, and with drum diameter.

More important, is the problem of fade. Brake fade will reduce braking effectiveness, sometimes to zero, when prolonged braking is needed, either on long hills with heavy loads, or occasionally towards the end of a rapid stop from high speed (uncommon with a Series). This is where two other factors come into play. Firstly, heat dissipating area, which is where bigger drums come in, and secondly the loss of self servo action, which exaggerates the fade with heat buildup. All Series drum brakes have self servo action to reduce pedal pressure, in the case of swb on 50% of shoes, in the case of lwb 75%. Disc brakes have no self servo action, and there is no loss of pedal due to drum expansion with heat, so fade is rarely a problem.

Then there is the effect of water. Disc brakes throw water straight off, so water has little effect. Drum brakes retain water once it gets in, and it acts as a lubricant, greatly reducing braking.

And finally maintenance. Drum brakes need more maintenance - they need adjusting regularly, and the mechanism is more complex than disc brakes.

John

[Rangier Rover]

It might be worth thinking about what you want from the brakes when you start talking about "stopping power", and analyse what the difference is likely to be.

The actual ability of any braking system to stop from relatively low speeds (e.g. in traffic, avoiding wildlife, kids etc) will usually depend on the grip of the tyres plus the ability of the braking system to proportion the braking on each wheel according to load. No Series braking system is going to be particularly good in either of these respects - we usually have tyres that are less than the best, as they are compromise for whatever surface we are talking about, and as a load carrying vehicle, the loading on the front and rear axles is variable, and there is no compensating mechanism in the braking system, so either braking on the rear is less than adequate when loaded (standard setup), or it will lock well before the front when empty. The standard Series brakes are as good as the tyres and proportioning for load, so no change is justified on these grounds.

However, pedal pressure for a particular braking effort is often seen as the sole criterion for "stopping power", and this can be simply reduced by fitting a booster. It also varies with the type of lining and the ratio of master cylinder area to wheel cylinder area, and the leverage of the pedal, and with drum diameter.

More important, is the problem of fade. Brake fade will reduce braking effectiveness, sometimes to zero, when prolonged braking is needed, either on long hills with heavy loads, or occasionally towards the end of a rapid stop from high speed (uncommon with a Series). This is where two other factors come into play. Firstly, heat dissipating area, which is where bigger drums come in, and secondly the loss of self servo action, which exaggerates the fade with heat buildup. All Series drum brakes have self servo action to reduce pedal pressure, in the case of swb on 50% of shoes, in the case of lwb 75%. Disc brakes have no self servo action, and there is no loss of pedal due to drum expansion with heat, so fade is rarely a problem.

Then there is the effect of water. Disc brakes throw water straight off, so water has little effect. Drum brakes retain water once it gets in, and it acts as a lubricant, greatly reducing braking.

And finally maintenance. Drum brakes need more maintenance - they need adjusting regularly, and the mechanism is more complex than disc brakes.

John Thanks John, I see your point. Disk Simplicity and forgiveing. I am aware of down fall of drums. Why the Stage 1 V8 have restricters inside inlet ports from factory.
As you may have noticed I have a heap of drum braked turnouts here and they do stop well if maintained. Some have a VH44 booster.
I find the Disc set up un the Rangies only work well at speed when they heat up a bit. Not so prone to fade as drums. At low speed in city trafic they have a lot to be desired beleive me. I'm buggerd if I can get them to lock up (Not that I want them to) let alone stop when a rice burner chops in and stands on the skids. Also very hard to hold the auto in low range with a load after a failed hill climb:eek: Leading drums fall over going backwards as well I guess.:(

Just trying to point out standard Range Rover brakes will not save the day in this situation. Not Drums are better than disc.

Thanks for usefull info anyway.

Tony

[JDNSW]

Thanks John, I see your point. Disk Simplicity and forgiveing. I am aware of down fall of drums. Why the Stage 1 V8 have restricters inside inlet ports from factory.
As you may have noticed I have a heap of drum braked turnouts here and they do stop well if maintained. Some have a VH44 booster.
I find the Disc set up un the Rangies only work well at speed when they heat up a bit. Not so prone to fade as drums. At low speed in city trafic they have a lot to be desired beleive me. I'm buggerd if I can get them to lock up (Not that I want them to) let alone stop when a rice burner chops in and stands on the skids. Also very hard to hold the auto in low range with a load after a failed hill climb:eek: Leading drums fall over going backwards as well I guess.:(

Just trying to point out standard Range Rover brakes will not save the day in this situation. Not Drums are better than disc.

Thanks for usefull info anyway.

Tony

I was not trying to say discs were the way to go! Just laying out the technical details. Having looked at all the factors I would have great difficulty justifying changing a Series to discs - while they are overall better, the difficulties and costs of the change make it not worth the cost and effort when the drums are perfectly adequate when working properly, particularly the 3" x 11" with booster.

Worth noting the Series 2 I owned in the early sixties I fitted a VH44.

Your problems with inadequate braking on the Rangerover sounds like low vacuum, possibly due to a small leak, or perhaps a stuck piston in a calliper.

John

[Rangier Rover]

I was not trying to say discs were the way to go! Just laying out the technical details. Having looked at all the factors I would have great difficulty justifying changing a Series to discs - while they are overall better, the difficulties and costs of the change make it not worth the cost and effort when the drums are perfectly adequate when working properly, particularly the 3" x 11" with booster.

Worth noting the Series 2 I owned in the early sixties I fitted a VH44.

Your problems with inadequate braking on the Rangerover sounds like low vacuum, possibly due to a small leak, or perhaps a stuck piston in a calliper.

John The 89 has all new fitted. The brakes are lousy on all 3 of my Rangerovers. Pass at rego some how:confused:

Low vacuum... The 89 being auto is down on vacuume when in drive a low speed around 20"/ hg.

I'm going to try larger front calipers and change proportional valve to variable and see what its like.

Sorry for thread hyjack;)

Tony

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...

... The best argument for disks that I've seen is that the drums, having double leading shoes, don't stop as well in reverse, but that isn't your complaint.
If stopping in reverse is your problem, then put a front set of 11" drums on the rear with the sides reversed.

That way you have double leading drums on the front for stopping going forward and a set of double leading shoes on the rear (which is now your front) when going in reverse. If you use 3" on the rear as well you are over compensating for the loss of 1 leading shoe going forward.

[DeeJay]

If stopping in reverse is your problem, then put a front set of 11" drums on the rear with the sides reversed.

That way you have double leading drums on the front for stopping going forward and a set of double leading shoes on the rear (which is now your front) when going in reverse. If you use 3" on the rear as well you are over compensating for the loss of 1 leading shoe going forward.

Now thats smart thinking..

Would - and I just thought of this- the master cyl be able to pump out enough fluid?