Disco TD5 - Raising Oil level - Any ideas?

[Aukedrdw]

Afternoon Guys,

I have been reading the threads on this site for some time now but this is my first post.

I bought a 2003 Disco TD5 Disco 3 months ago and love the way the car drives and am still totally excstatic with my purchase of this British icon!

However, during my last trip back down to Sydney from Queensland (+/- 1,000 km's) I noticed that the oil level had raised on the dipstick by 3-5 millimeters.
Being a fuddy duddy with my car, I took it to Graham Cooper the day after I returned. After looking at the car, he thought that it was NOT the injector seals leaking, it was NOT the fuel pressure regulator, but what the issue is, he wasn't too sure. He reckoned, the only thing that could be left as the root cause of this problem is a crack between one of the oil and diesel galley's......

Does this sound plausible to anybody? Are there any additional tests I can carry out?

If it is a cracked head, would this still be claimable at LR? I am the second owner of the vehicle from new and it has done 123.000 km - only 10.000 with me behind the wheel though? Engine wise, the car is completely standard.

Looking forward to your advice and guidance.

Thanks,

Auke

[Slunnie]

The oil level on the dipstick changes significantly in the TD5 with nose of the car pointing slightly up or down. 5mm doesn't take a lot of angle change on the engine.

[Aukedrdw]

Slunnie,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, this height change on the dipstick is when measured cold, on a level surface with no load in the car - thus eliminating external influances. Also thought that as the oil gets hot it may expand and raise the level, therefore always measured when cold and parked in the same (level) spot on the driveway......

any more ideas??

Auke

[Blknight.aus]

ummmmm... potentially bad news...

if the oil isnt changing colour (ie not going to porridge from water mixing in from a leaky oil cooler) then you have diesel entering the oil from a leaky injector seal in the head....

continued driving under this condition has the potential for a runaway if excessive diesel in the oil occours but you are risking other internal engine damage prior to that becoming realistically possable.

check the viscosity of the ooil and smell it, if it smells like dieso stop driving it or minimise driving untill you get the injector seals sorted.

[100I]

I wouldn't dismiss coolant entirely, I know of 2 (admittedly larger) diesel engines in forklifts where the oil level was raised by water in the sump yet it was not milky, the water was still on the bottom..

[Blknight.aus]

that'd be easy to eliminate, crack the drain bung hold it in place with one finger and unwind it till its dripping something out, if its raising the oil level enough to cause suspicion it should drain water first, just like a big ole fuel water seperator.

[George130]

I have heard of the deso leaking into the oil. Thought it only happened when the head was cracked.

[Scouse]

There are a couple of things to do with leaking injectors.
LR released a checklist recently that involves checking pressures & modifying a valve(?) at the filter area. I'm not at work for a while so I can't get the exact details.

If that fails, it is possible to run the engine with the cam cover removed to see what is going on. After cleaning everything, you can often see which injector seal is leaking. Often replacing the seal(s) will fix the problem but in problem cars, a different spec injector is available.

Do you know if your Disco is still under warranty?
If not, did you buy it within the warranty period?


There have been cases of porous/cracked heads but that's the last thing you want to hear.

[Bush65]

If you get the oil analysed, it will reveal whether it has abnormal diesel or coolant in it, and more.

http://www.e-monitor.com.au/

[Blknight.aus]

I have heard of the deso leaking into the oil. Thought it only happened when the head was cracked.

no sorry mate the injector body itself is used to seal the fuel gallery in the head and it has (off the top of my head) 3 seals on it

1 to seal the combustion chamber
1 to seal the lower side of the injector
1 to seal the upper side of the injector

failure of the last seal will let diesel pump up past the injector into the rocker area and then back down into the sump. Fortunately it only pumps tiny amounts in with the pulsations of the injection cyclye a total failure of said seal would see the full 60psi of the fuel pump trying to fill the rocker.

failure of the middle seal is pretty much inconsiquential (yes I know i spelled it wrong Ron)

and failure of the combustion seal while Ive never heard of it would have some pretty spectaculare (and that one too Ron) results.

[DirtyDawg]

Dave I love reading your posts..make me happier n happier I got the 300TDI;)

[Aukedrdw]

Evening Guys,

Thanks for your replies. I have just been to the engineering shop and seen all the pressure tests. Very happy as all oil and fuel gallies are fine............:D

However, now it seems the injectors are suffering from 'blow-by'.....has anybody heard of this before? If so can anybody fix this as the injectors cost a small fortune (about 800.00 A$ PER injector and 3 of the 5 are definately leaking, so might as well change all 5........:(

Can anybody recommend a cheap supplier in Oz, UK or US?

Thanks, and looking forward to your feedback

Auke

[Blknight.aus]

ummm blow by how..... how was the fuel pressure check done?

Its possable to have the pressures in the fuel system come up ok and get the fuel coming past the seals.

Theres 3 types of blow by....

1. blowby past poorly sealing piston rings (which is irrelvent in this case
2. blowby past the injector up into the head as the main seals are stuffed, if you had this youd get hot areated fuel coming into the tank and youd be having herrendous running problems.
3. blowby into the injector. this is where the combustion gasses enter the nozzle of the injector itself and come up through the guts of the injector ruining it in realtively short order. A usual clue is the injection spray pattern is a set of needle jets instead of a mist with the injector opening at too low a pressure and dribbling like a 90yo ogling a penthouse.

in theory the only one that can have an appreciable effect on rising oil levels is #2 as the fuel is getting sudden pressure spikes that is forcing it past the seals in the head. Hypothetically if that were the case you would see burning past the seal lip for the primary seal on the injector if the injector bodies are clean and the seats are ok refit new seals and see whas what. (id also expect your fuel pressure regulator to be herniating itself by now)


If the guts of the injector are totally stuffed (it'll still inject okish tho) then the pressure spike might be coming back through the injector itself. While a unit injector Can be rebuilt its normally cheaper to buy a new unit and let them keep the old one for reco. The injectors in a td5 havce a fuel code stamped on them and that needs to be entered into the ECU for optimal preformance.

blowby into the injector itself would leave you running rough and smokey although the emcon on the td5 is pretty good and will mask a multitude of sins.

[justinc]

Evening Guys,

Thanks for your replies. I have just been to the engineering shop and seen all the pressure tests. Very happy as all oil and fuel gallies are fine............:D

However, now it seems the injectors are suffering from 'blow-by'.....has anybody heard of this before? If so can anybody fix this as the injectors cost a small fortune (about 800.00 A$ PER injector and 3 of the 5 are definately leaking, so might as well change all 5........:(

Can anybody recommend a cheap supplier in Oz, UK or US?

Thanks, and looking forward to your feedback

Auke

Auke,

I have just done the same job on a Td5 today, all the lower injector washers were incorrect and some even had swarf jammed under them, and all but 1 injector O ring was non genuine and incorrect thickness. Needless to say this vehicle had excess oil in the sump, about 2 litres apparently! This, coupled with the complete destruction of the turbocharger bearings and impellers, has caused a fair bit of a headache for the owner. The vehicle was recently purchased from NSW privately, and had just had the head off due to a blown head gasket apparently. Not happy Jan. Why do we end up with all the rubbish down here??????:mad:


Injector problem fixed, turbo ordered. Oil changed.Fingers crossed:eek:


JC

[Blknight.aus]

Auke,

I have just done the same job on a Td5 today, all the lower injector washers were incorrect and some even had swarf jammed under them, and all but 1 injector O ring was non genuine and incorrect thickness. Needless to say this vehicle had excess oil in the sump, about 2 litres apparently! This, coupled with the complete destruction of the turbocharger bearings and impellers, has caused a fair bit of a headache for the owner. The vehicle was recently purchased from NSW privately, and had just had the head off due to a blown head gasket apparently. Not happy Jan. Why do we end up with all the rubbish down here??????:mad:





Injector problem fixed, turbo ordered. Oil changed.Fingers crossed:eek:


JC

Mate just by the by did you pull the supm and eyeball the bottom half of the mains and the bigends?

(pm if you want to hear about an interesting story relating about this and an isuzu truck run by a bodgies bro company, I dont want to hijack this one)

[Aukedrdw]

Funny thing though, I was at the engineernig shop and saw the diesel oozing (very slowly) out of the top of the injectors (where the springs are) when the fuel lines were pressured at only about 6 bar.

Graeham Cooper has seen fuel pressure drop too apparently , and was sure that this was NOT down to the washers or seals, but could not see where the pressure was leaking to do to all the oil being every where. That is why he thought the head was cracked - normal for a TD5 apparently.....:eek:

I do believe that there is no other explanation left other than the .... the 'blow-by' theory, although a cheaper problem to fix would be welcome at this point.

Where can I get a set of injectors for 'normal' money?

[justinc]

Mate just by the by did you pull the supm and eyeball the bottom half of the mains and the bigends?

(pm if you want to hear about an interesting story relating about this and an isuzu truck run by a bodgies bro company, I dont want to hijack this one)

Hi Dave,

Not yet, I had run it for a while today and has excellent oil pressure and is quiet in the bottom end. (This was BEFORE I took it for a 100metre drive out the workshop door and stopped when I heard the turbo groaning!!!) Owner is in shock and needs vehicle to use for work, Self employed.(Why does this happen to all the nice people?:mad:)
If the bottom end is no go I would've expected to hear some pretty foul noises and had an oil pressure issue I would think. Also, apart from the usual early Td5 cam lobe wear, there is very little indication in the top end that suggests more damage. I'm being optomistic here too....I agree the crank and bearings are worth a look, but either way even if he needs another mtr soon, the turbo will be required. At this point, $$$ are tight for this guy, and a good secondhand turbo, new injector seals and washers, and a few hours labour and oil will keep him going for a bit so he can go back to work.

JC ( Feel free to send me PM...)

[catch-22]

Hi Auke,

Did you end up getting this resolved? If so, what was the issue and cost? I have the same problem. Whilst not properly noting the oil level, I am sure it has risen. I have sent my oil off for analysis and should have the results back by tomorrow.

Cheers
Caine

[Graz]

A trick I saw in a farming mag was to put a drop of oil from your sump on a pane of glass and next to it a drop of new oil ( same as what is in the sump ) and hold the glass vertical. If there is crankcase oil dilution with diesel then the drop of sump oil will run down the glass faster and further than the new oil.

[Frenchie]

Needless to say this vehicle had excess oil in the sump, about 2 litres apparently!

JC

That's nothing, mine had 4 litres (of diesel) in there when the head went! :eek:

[catch-22]

Sent my oil away to e-monitor and I get the results this evening. Preliminary tests, however, show 2% fuel in the oil. When a flash test was done at 180c it was higher....how high? Well at this stage I am unsure....fingures crossed.

[daggsy]

Hi, I am wondering how you got on with the fuel dilution problem? I to have a 03 Disco and been having the problem since I bought the car in 05.

Austral Landrover in Brisbane have had 3 goes at trying to fix it but it is still leaking. It is much slower as it is registering 3.8% fuel in 10,000 kms. It was much higher when I first found it. They have replaced head, all o'rings nad thrust washers.

However now they are telling me that those engines will pass some diesel through to the oil by the injectors. Depending on where the engine stops the cam may be fully compressing the needle for an injector and this will release into the bore and seap past the rings. I find that hard to believe as I thought the injector needed an electrical pulse to open it. Anyhow they are monitoring mine over the nex 5000 kms. Mine has only done 80,000km.

[oldyella 76]

A simple test for fuel in the oil is, when the engine is hot is to pull the dip stick out and let the oil drop on a piece of brown paper. If there is diesel in the oil it will spread out past the oil stain with a lighter color. That means you will have a dark stain in the middle and a light stain outside.

[DiscoDan]

I looked at a D2 that had a similar problem to this, the owner was telling me that it would fill the sump 20mm in 300kms.

Turned out to be the head, when they pressure tested the heads fuel area there was a leak into the combustion area. The head was replaced and this seemed to fix the issue.

The car was cheap 10k, and exterior was nice, oxford blue, but the kms 280k had taken there toll on the body. The radiator support panel was badly cracked so I walked away