Isuzu into D1/RRC

[100I]

Gday,
This is not my thread as such...
Just an opener as I'm sure many have contemplated the same thing. Big-simple-diesel in wife-friendly-car.
I'm hoping that some nice people here could give a rundown of what is involved to repower with an Izuzu.

I have some obvious questions to kick off with for instance;
Can it be mated to a late R380?
Is the engine in the 4t trucks the same? (also see Q1)
Is it a heavy engine compared to the V8 for instance?
What is it like for noise compared to say a 200tdi?
Is the standard D1 gearing suitable?
Should it pass emissions ok for this era of vehicle (being that D1 was classed as a truck)?
Lots more questions but off to the footy.

cheers

[Blknight.aus]

Can it be mated to a late R380? Sure if you throw enough money at it but it will eat the input of the r380 for breakfast.
Is the engine in the 4t trucks the same? (also see Q1)some isuzu 4t trucks yes but witn minor modifications to the guts and the pump in some cases
Is it a heavy engine compared to the V8 for instance? yes the lifting block for a V8 is 300kg minimum the isuzu 500kg minimum so yeah its a lump of donk.
What is it like for noise compared to say a 200tdi? after your eardrums rupture you will no longer notice the difference
Is the standard D1 gearing suitable? yep, I dare say you could dive around in the top 3 gears if you dont mind slow acceleration times
Should it pass emissions ok for this era of vehicle (being that D1 was classed as a truck)? If you bribe the inspecting officer enough. In honesty Im not real sure what the exact emission regs for the D1 is.


On the plus side the block will physically fit into the engine bay but you will need to rely on thermo fans to get the clearance at the front of a disco.

[p38arover]

I know the blokes at KLR Auto have converted a number of Rangies to the 4BD1-T.

Three of them drive Rangies with 4BD1-T engines.

Ron

[justinc]

Gday,
This is not my thread as such...
Just an opener as I'm sure many have contemplated the same thing. Big-simple-diesel in wife-friendly-car.
I'm hoping that some nice people here could give a rundown of what is involved to repower with an Izuzu.

I have some obvious questions to kick off with for instance;
Can it be mated to a late R380?
Is the engine in the 4t trucks the same? (also see Q1)
Is it a heavy engine compared to the V8 for instance?
What is it like for noise compared to say a 200tdi?
Is the standard D1 gearing suitable?
Should it pass emissions ok for this era of vehicle (being that D1 was classed as a truck)?
Lots more questions but off to the footy.

cheers

Hi Dan, As you obviously have these and many more Q's, Give me a call on (03) 6229 1102 BH and I'll give you as much help as I can in deciding:twisted:which way to go. I am extremely biased on the 4BD1 into RR department so beware.

I will post in this new section a tech type discussion on the fitting and testing etc of my conversion, which I am extremely happy with. ( And so is the other half I might add....)
1) Yes, It has been done with success, and I nearly went this way but glad I didn't, as the venerable LT95 will last a LLOONNGG time behind this engine.
2) Mostly, the 3.9 Directinjection engine in the NKR etc is essentially the same except most have 24volt ancilliaries. I would go Ex county 110 if poss.
3)I haven't weighed it, but I have been informed the 4bd1 weighs about 360KG, and the V8 about 190Kg. (!)
4)My EX county engine with turbo is as quiet as a Tdi if not quieter. Especially a Defender Tdi! The truck engines are noisier and the nonturbo ones worse again. I can hear my Cooper St's above the noise of the engine at 110kmh easily.
5)Standard D1 gearing is not high enough, I would fit a 1:1high range LT230 ex 110 Diesel or Rangie 727torgueflyte(1985) and Minimum 32" tyres. There are some good tyre / revs/ calculators on the net, maybe a link here in the search section. You need to be about 2200Rpm at 100kmh for good fuel economy etc. ( That is for a turbo engine, and personally I wouldn't fit anything else)
6)My 4BD1 turbo with intercooler produces about 20% of the smoke of a tweaked 300Tdi, and will pull heaps harder from 1000rpm. I would say it would pass an emissions test, but check that you are allowed to fit an earlier engine to your Disco, as some states now won't let you go backwards in manufacturing years.(Stupid, as some early diesels have less harmful emissions than equivalent petrol...)
JC

[p38arover]

I am extremely biased on the 4BD1 into RR department so beware.

I think you are not alone. It is a revered engine in LR circles.

Ron

[justinc]

I think you are not alone. It is a revered engine in LR circles.

Ron

Hi Ron, when you come down for tea and bikkies, you will have to drive mine....a bit agricultural compared to a P38A, but enjoyable just the same.
As far as reverence is concerned, you may genuflect before alighting....
JC

[p38arover]

Hi Justin,

I've driven a few. I dound that I kept forgetting to put in the clutch at traffic lights, they just pull so well in the wrong gear that it was easy to forget I was driving a manual.

My local blokes keep telling me to convert the P38A to a 4BD1-T :D

Ron

[justinc]

Hi Justin,

I've driven a few. I dound that I kept forgetting to put in the clutch at traffic lights, they just pull so well in the wrong gear that it was easy to forget I was driving a manual.

My local blokes keep telling me to convert the P38A to a 4BD1-T :D

Ron

I could even be persuaded to own one if the Isuzu would be a succesful transplant...

See you soon...

JC

[mcrover]

Hi Justin,


My local blokes keep telling me to convert the P38A to a 4BD1-T :D

Ron


That would be a nice car then and I might be able to afford to run one.

[100I]

Thanks for replies,
JC I'll probably give you a call sometime this week.
This is all theoretical ATM but is a very real avenue for my D1, the Isuzu is very appealing..
I've looked at all sorts of options for a replacement vehicle, but it's the electrickery that's getting me down and common rail is right back in the same boat, I just want something simple.
Shame about the R380, a complete replacement driveline is a bummer. Wonder how many R380 rebuilds could be justified versus swapping out the lot. Would it break in spectacular fashion or does it just chew bearings etc. I like to think I'm nice to gearbags, I've never broken one yet.

[justinc]

Thanks for replies,
JC I'll probably give you a call sometime this week.
This is all theoretical ATM but is a very real avenue for my D1, the Isuzu is very appealing..
I've looked at all sorts of options for a replacement vehicle, but it's the electrickery that's getting me down and common rail is right back in the same boat, I just want something simple.
Shame about the R380, a complete replacement driveline is a bummer. Wonder how many R380 rebuilds could be justified versus swapping out the lot. Would it break in spectacular fashion or does it just chew bearings etc. I like to think I'm nice to gearbags, I've never broken one yet.

Hi Dan,
I would give the R380 a try, I wanted the LT95 because I wanted to tow campers to remote areas etc and my motor pumps out a fair bit of torque etc, there is no reason why a rebuilt R380 with a sensible boost and fuel setting shouldn't last driven normally.
At least it will keep the $$$$ down.

JC

[lokka]

What is there to do to a 85 RRC so one could fit the 4bd1 as i have both here and would love to put the whole shebang together just for the sake of having a good long distance truck ....

Ive got a 85 RRC and a rusty old 84 mod S3 stage 1 the RRC is in good shape tho has the 3.5 with the 5spd and the stage 1 has the 4bd1 with lt95 and has only done 160k with religious 5k services so it should make a good combo ...

Also what sorta aftermarket turbo is the go for this engin and what sorta mods dose it need to the fuel pump and will an inter cooler and large exhaust help gain the sorta grunt of the 3.5 ...

Cheers

Chris

[Maggot4x4]

Hi Dan,
I would give the R380 a try, I wanted the LT95 because I wanted to tow campers to remote areas etc and my motor pumps out a fair bit of torque etc, there is no reason why a rebuilt R380 with a sensible boost and fuel setting shouldn't last driven normally.
At least it will keep the $$$$ down.

JC

JC is renowned as being hard on gearboxes, esp autos:p:D:angel:

There are a few 4BD1 Rangies in southern QLD, some turbo, some not. I am sure you could get a drive of one somewhere.

[Bush65]

...
Shame about the R380, a complete replacement driveline is a bummer. Wonder how many R380 rebuilds could be justified versus swapping out the lot. Would it break in spectacular fashion or does it just chew bearings etc. I like to think I'm nice to gearbags, I've never broken one yet.
The R380 was beefed up from the LT77, but the early models, suffix 'J' are known for braking mainshafts because of a bad stress raiser. This was fixed with suffix 'k'. Suffix 'L' (current model) is stronger again.

It is the torsional vibration at low revs that causes the transmission problems. The 4BD1 is a big 4 cyl diesel that produces a lot of torque from each cylinder at idle. As a 4 cyl, the torque is delivered as 2 impulses per rev.

The less you allow it to pull a load at near idle speed (and it will), then the more life you will get from the gearbox.

[Bush65]

....
Also what sorta aftermarket turbo is the go for this engin and what sorta mods dose it need to the fuel pump and will an inter cooler and large exhaust help gain the sorta grunt of the 3.5 ...

Cheers

Chris
GT25 turbo (or equal) - particulars depend how much boost you want (and how far you turn up the fuel).

Exhaust manifold from either, a 4BD2-T, or you have the capability of making you own manifold.

Adjust the injection timing as for the turbo engine.

To increase fuel, screw out, the full load fuel screw on the right side of the govenor housing.

Intercooler and large exhaust will allow more grunt than the 3.5

[lokka]

GT25 turbo (or equal) - particulars depend how much boost you want (and how far you turn up the fuel).

Exhaust manifold from either, a 4BD2-T, or you have the capability of making you own manifold.

Adjust the injection timing as for the turbo engine.

To increase fuel, screw out, the full load fuel screw on the right side of the govenor housing.

Intercooler and large exhaust will allow more grunt than the 3.5

Sounds like sum good advice there john maby il have to come see you again one day and have a bit more of a yarn hay :D:D:D

As for the fabed exhaust manifold that sure is a do'er
and i need to get some other bits profiled so mite as well get a bunch of stuf done at once :cool::cool:

[100I]

The R380 was beefed up from the LT77, but the early models, suffix 'J' are known for braking mainshafts because of a bad stress raiser. This was fixed with suffix 'k'. Suffix 'L' (current model) is stronger again.

It is the torsional vibration at low revs that causes the transmission problems. The 4BD1 is a big 4 cyl diesel that produces a lot of torque from each cylinder at idle. As a 4 cyl, the torque is delivered as 2 impulses per rev.

The less you allow it to pull a load at near idle speed (and it will), then the more life you will get from the gearbox.

Hmmm yep and this is just the type of driver I am, a habitual short shifter.
:angel:


5).... You need to be about 2200Rpm at 100kmh for good fuel economy etc. ( That is for a turbo engine, and personally I wouldn't fit anything else)
6)My 4BD1 turbo with intercooler produces about 20% of the smoke of a tweaked 300Tdi, and will pull heaps harder from 1000rpm. I would say it would pass an emissions test, but check that you are allowed to fit an earlier engine to your Disco, as some states now won't let you go backwards in manufacturing years.(Stupid, as some early diesels have less harmful emissions than equivalent petrol...)
JC

With the bit looking around I've been doing, my biggest problem is likely #6, the emmisions laws. The 4BD1 appears to have been phased out around 94 with the move to the indirect 4BD2/T (whereas I thought they were still in the trucks till late 90's). So I won't get an engine of the same age as the car. 4BD1 are still marinised it seems but they don't meet modern ADR.

Maybe I need to find a schmick RRC and go from there?
Trouble with that is finding one.
No, trouble with that is SWMBO actually prefers the look of the Disco over a Rangie:eek:.
Hear that? About 2000 Rangie owners just choked on their Martini:p

I also paid more attention to my tacho and the R380, at 100k, spins at 2150 in 5th, 3000 in 4th, 4100 in 3rd.
Bit of a jump for an oiler from 4th to 5th so a turbo is not negotiable:twisted:.

[Bush65]

Sounds like sum good advice there john maby il have to come see you again one day and have a bit more of a yarn hay :D:D:D

As for the fabed exhaust manifold that sure is a do'er
and i need to get some other bits profiled so mite as well get a bunch of stuf done at once :cool::cool:
No problem Chris, might be able to help you with a turbo (but not the manifold).

Here is a pic of a manifold someone made for a Cummins 4BT (very similar to the 4BD1-T). He reported gave about 5psi increase in boost and exhaust gas temp 100*F lower.

I'm getting ready to swap my 4BD1-T from the bushie into the rangie. While it is out, I plan to do some mods - aiming for over 200 HP.

[lokka]

No problem Chris, might be able to help you with a turbo (but not the manifold).

Here is a pic of a manifold someone made for a Cummins 4BT (very similar to the 4BD1-T). He reported gave about 5psi increase in boost and exhaust gas temp 100*F lower.

I'm getting ready to swap my 4BD1-T from the bushie into the rangie. While it is out, I plan to do some mods - aiming for over 200 HP.

Shyte 200 ponies sounds great il defiately have to have a yarn to ya now :D:D:D

That exhaust looks sweet ive always thought a good set of pipes for a deso turbo would reap some nice benifits :D:D

[wovenrovings]

According to my manual the 4bd1 weighs in at 321kg.

A mate of mine in Bundy has a Range rover with a 3.6L turbo isuzu. And had to do a 2" body lift to clear the rocker cover. Goes well. He chose it because it is a little more refined than the 4BD1 (well it is a range rover).

[mcrover]

Hmmm yep and this is just the type of driver I am, a habitual short shifter.
:angel:


With the bit looking around I've been doing, my biggest problem is likely #6, the emmisions laws. The 4BD1 appears to have been phased out around 94 with the move to the indirect 4BD2/T (whereas I thought they were still in the trucks till late 90's). So I won't get an engine of the same age as the car. 4BD1 are still marinised it seems but they don't meet modern ADR.

Maybe I need to find a schmick RRC and go from there?
Trouble with that is finding one.
No, trouble with that is SWMBO actually prefers the look of the Disco over a Rangie:eek:.
Hear that? About 2000 Rangie owners just choked on their Martini:p

I also paid more attention to my tacho and the R380, at 100k, spins at 2150 in 5th, 3000 in 4th, 4100 in 3rd.
Bit of a jump for an oiler from 4th to 5th so a turbo is not negotiable:twisted:.

Get an early Disco and then you could fit one no worries and they are about as cheap as a late 80's RRC these days.

Interior isnt as pretty as the update but when it's all dusty it doesnt really matter anymore anyway.

[rar110]

john - bush65
the bolt pattern on that manifold looks different to the one on my 4bd1.

On my manifold the top bolt on each port is offset to the right and bottom bolt is offset to the left, rather than both placed in line with each port as in the photo.

are there variations in the 4bd1?

[lokka]

john - bush65
the bolt pattern on that manifold looks different to the one on my 4bd1.

On my manifold the top bolt on each port is offset to the right and bottom bolt is offset to the left, rather than both placed in line with each port as in the photo.

are there variations in the 4bd1?

THe pic of the manifold john posted is for a 4bt cummins and id say he posted it to show how easy it was made i wonder if a stainless one would work beta and maby to be flash set it up with a water jacket to help cool the sucker :D:D:D:D

[Roverray]

According to my manual the 4bd1 weighs in at 321kg.

A mate of mine in Bundy has a Range rover with a 3.6L turbo isuzu. And had to do a 2" body lift to clear the rocker cover. Goes well. He chose it because it is a little more refined than the 4BD1 (well it is a range rover).
What box is he running- LT95? Auto?

[Bush65]

THe pic of the manifold john posted is for a 4bt cummins and id say he posted it to show how easy it was made i wonder if a stainless one would work beta and maby to be flash set it up with a water jacket to help cool the sucker :D:D:D:D
Yes that manifold is for a 4BT Cummins. It is an example of reasonably simple construction that gave measurable improvements in boost pressure and exhaust gas temperatures.

For performance, a 4 into 1 manifold would be better, but more difficult with small turbo inlets. Or with a split inlet turbo, a 1 to 4 and 2 to 3 configuration would be better with the 4BD1 firing order (1-3-4-2).

Stainless is stronger at higher temps than mild steel and much better for corrosion resistance.

It is desirable to retain as much heat in the exhaust as possible, before the turbo. The turbine converts the heat energy to mechanical energy (driving the compressor). Here again, stainless is better at retaining heat, than mild steel.

Also thin wall tubing is better for retaining heat, than thick wall.

One disadvantage of stainless is the higher rate of thermal expansion, but attention to details can overcome the problems.

Other disadvantages are more expensive for materials, and welding is more specialised.

Mild steel however is very suitable, but corrosion resistance is a problem, and would demand greater wall thickness tubing.

[lokka]

Yes that manifold is for a 4BT Cummins. It is an example of reasonably simple construction that gave measurable improvements in boost pressure and exhaust gas temperatures.

For performance, a 4 into 1 manifold would be better, but more difficult with small turbo inlets. Or with a split inlet turbo, a 1 to 4 and 2 to 3 configuration would be better with the 4BD1 firing order (1-3-4-2).

Stainless is stronger at higher temps than mild steel and much better for corrosion resistance.

It is desirable to retain as much heat in the exhaust as possible, before the turbo. The turbine converts the heat energy to mechanical energy (driving the compressor). Here again, stainless is better at retaining heat, than mild steel.

Also thin wall tubing is better for retaining heat, than thick wall.

One disadvantage of stainless is the higher rate of thermal expansion, but attention to details can overcome the problems.

Other disadvantages are more expensive for materials, and welding is more specialised.

Mild steel however is very suitable, but corrosion resistance is a problem, and would demand greater wall thickness tubing.

Mate sounds like you know your stuff there as for stainless manifolds i cant see why it would be a drama as i have all the gear to fab and weld here at home and i have good contacts in the right places to get the material needed at the right price and lazer cut flanges would be doable to as i have contacts in that area as well :D:D:D:D:D:D

[Larns]

I was under the impression that diesel soot eats stainless steel, thats why non of the aftermarket exhaust kits are made of this.

And to add to the conversion conversation. the R380 WILL hold up to the Isuzu, but as bushie stated it's the low rpm torque pulses that kill gearboxes. I know guys that have done nearly 200k km on the R380 and it's still holding up without symptons of giving up.
The only set back would be finding the bellhousing for KLR to do the conversion to. And it's worth doing, mine drives like a dream now.
The LT-85 just dosn't quite match up to the R380.........

Cheers

[lokka]

I was under the impression that diesel soot eats stainless steel, thats why non of the aftermarket exhaust kits are made of this.

And to add to the conversion conversation. the R380 WILL hold up to the Isuzu, but as bushie stated it's the low rpm torque pulses that kill gearboxes. I know guys that have done nearly 200k km on the R380 and it's still holding up without symptons of giving up.
The only set back would be finding the bellhousing for KLR to do the conversion to. And it's worth doing, mine drives like a dream now.
The LT-85 just dosn't quite match up to the R380.........

Cheers

As for deso gass and soot eating stainless id doubt that as i use to make scrubber boxs for undergtound equip and the scrubber is a larg s/s box with multipull chambers full of water the deso feums go in pass the water 3 times in seperate chambers and out the end as steam mainly the chambers full of water scrub out the soot and particle and noxious fumes tho the water turns to a sulfuric acid inside and has to be changed and they dont rot from the soot or gass the vibrations kill em or the hard knocks they get :D:D:D

[Bush65]

IMHO, the best grade of staino to use would be 321 - ASTM A213-TP321 seamless tube or A249-TP321 welded tube. But 304 or 304L (low carbon) would be ok - ASTM A213-TP304 seamless tube or A249-TP304 welded tube (add an L for low carbon).

Duplex staino (SAF) would have the advantage of lower thermal expansion.

Here is a pic that shows a fabricated 4 into 1 manifold that should perform a bit better than the 1-2 3-4 manifold and simpler to make than other 4 into 1's that I have seen. This is not for an Isuzu, just shows the configuration.

[DirtyDawg]

In all the years I spent abusing Army 110's I never broke one....but Dave would be the best on fixing the things day in day out,,,,

[lokka]

IMHO, the best grade of staino to use would be 321 - ASTM A213-TP321 seamless tube or A249-TP321 welded tube. But 304 or 304L (low carbon) would be ok - ASTM A213-TP304 seamless tube or A249-TP304 welded tube (add an L for low carbon).

Duplex staino (SAF) would have the advantage of lower thermal expansion.

Here is a pic that shows a fabricated 4 into 1 manifold that should perform a bit better than the 1-2 3-4 manifold and simpler to make than other 4 into 1's that I have seen. This is not for an Isuzu, just shows the configuration.

John that manifold looks good and wouldent be hard to make either ..
As for staino grades i thought 316L or 309L would be the go as thats what i use to use mainly for the exhaust components on underground stuff ...:D:D

[Bush65]

John that manifold looks good and wouldent be hard to make either ..
As for staino grades i thought 316L or 309L would be the go as thats what i use to use mainly for the exhaust components on underground stuff ...:D:D
I thought it should b easy to make.

309 has a higher service temp (980 C) than 304, 316 and 321 (870 C).

The low carbon grades are not as strong as the same grade with high carbon 304L vs 304, etc.

Carbide precipitation at the grain boundaries at elevated temps is a problem, so 312 stabalised with titanium or low carbon grades are used.

Another problem is formation of Sigma Phase at high temps, which makes the material brittle. 304 grade is immune but grades with high chrome (309) or with molybdenum (316) have problems.

Edit: Sigma phase formation occurs at temps between 590 and 870 C, a range where exhaust manifolds for turbo diesels operate.

IMHO 321 is a better choice, but 304L would be ok.

Edit: I mentioned duplex stainless in an earlier post. Duplex stainless is good where stress corrosion cracking is a problem with chloride containing environments, but the temps were are talking of are too high for these grades.

[lokka]

I thought it should b easy to make.

309 has a higher service temp (980 C) than 304, 316 and 321 (870 C).

The low carbon grades are not as strong as the same grade with high carbon 304L vs 304, etc.

Carbide precipitation at the grain boundaries at elevated temps is a problem, so 312 stabalised with titanium or low carbon grades are used.

Another problem is formation of Sigma Phase at high temps, which makes the material brittle. 304 grade is immune but grades with high chrome (309) or with molybdenum (316) have problems.

Edit: Sigma phase formation occurs at temps between 590 and 870 C, a range where exhaust manifolds for turbo diesels operate.

IMHO 321 is a better choice, but 304L would be ok.

Edit: I mentioned duplex stainless in an earlier post. Duplex stainless is good where stress corrosion cracking is a problem with chloride containing environments, but the temps were are talking of are too high for these grades.

Yep duplex or saf as its known to those in the game is the go but has a preaty good price tag :eek::eek::eek:

Tho 309 isnt much cheaper at the moment staino in all grades is up in price as there s a problem in the market and has been for a while ...

[Bush65]

Yep duplex or saf as its known to those in the game is the go but has a preaty good price tag :eek::eek::eek:

Tho 309 isnt much cheaper at the moment staino in all grades is up in price as there s a problem in the market and has been for a while ...
Sandvik designate their duplex staino grades as SAF xxxx. They produce equivalent grades to ASTM specifications for duplex staino such as S31803 and S32304 etc. used in the pressure vessel and piping codes.

My comment in the previous post was to correct a recommendation in a previous post. IMHO, SAF would not be suitable for the temperatures of a turbo diesel exhaust manifold.

[andrew e]

Carbide precipitation at the grain boundaries at elevated temps is a problem, so 312 stabalised with titanium or low carbon grades are used.

Another problem is formation of Sigma Phase at high temps, which makes the material brittle. 304 grade is immune but grades with high chrome (309) or with molybdenum (316) have problems.

Edit: Sigma phase formation occurs at temps between 590 and 870 C, a range where exhaust manifolds for turbo diesels operate.

Edit: I mentioned duplex stainless in an earlier post. Duplex stainless is good where stress corrosion cracking is a problem with chloride containing environments, but the temps were are talking of are too high for these grades.

John, your posts are too complex for me. If i ever ask you a question, please answer with "yes", "No" or a picture. everything else goes over my head with your posts.

Example 1 : Are you planning LPG for the 200hp animal? (yes or no):D

Andy
ps any pics of the bushy?