Series 1 purchase advice

[gromit]

I am looking at buying a 1956 86" and need some advice on what problems to look for and whether the asking price is realistic (yes I know this is subjective and depends on the size of your wallet).
From the chassis number it's a 1956 CKD but it was supplied from new with a 60A welder running off the PTO. The welder is mounted under the rear floor (not in the back like the 80" Mobile Welder), there is a governor on the engine and an ammeter for the welder on the dash.It also has a PTO winch.
It has been modified so that one person can sleep inside, this was apparently done early in it's life.
It started OK and seems complete, reasonably original with limited panel damage and is currently registered.
From what I could see there is a lot of surface rust on the chassis but nothing too bad.

I hope to look at it again this weekend (in daylight this time) and would like some advice on what problems to check for.
Asking price is around $2000

Thanks,

Gromit

[101RRS]

If it is completely original, chassis is good, not bashed around too much then it is probably a reasonable price - the fact that it is still registered is not a factor as it will become unregistered on sale unless a road worthy was produced - how long ago was the last road worthy done - most likely 50 years ago so is not an indicator of condition. If the springs have sagged the spring ends punch holes in the bottom of the chassis so have a look for this.

If the car is not original -eg wrong engine etc then half the price.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I am looking at buying a 1956 86" and need some advice on what problems to look for and whether the asking price is realistic (yes I know this is subjective and depends on the size of your wallet).Asking price is around $2000

Thanks,

Gromit


Gromit (let us hope this post works without the computer powering down.)

Most late series 1 Welders (post 1954) were the same as the 80" types with the Lincoln unit mounted on the floor of the tub and storage bins on either side. I can not imagine there being enough room for a Lincoln unit below the tub. So pics would be of interest. If it were a genuine Series 1 welder it is very rare but unfortunately only in the 80" models did they have a seperate VIN sequence for the welder models. That said, the genuine welders, were all configured the same as the descriptions in the parts and workshop manuals.

There was at least one vendor in Melbourne who was selling after-market welders in the 1950's as a friend has a contemporary magazine ad for them and they were located very close to Regent Motors.

When checking the vehicle, the engine number should be close the the rear axle number sequence within about 500 units. Take a wire brush if you are that interested and the number is located at the top on the long side near the axle breather.

There are a number of locations where 86" vehicle rust. Check out the 3 main ones.


The firewall under the windscreen and around the vents also on the top cigarette box tray where the panic grab part is.
The first chassis outriggers, the curvy ones where the firewall mounts. There are holes in this member where the master cylinder mounts right next to the chassis side rail. The holes are on both sides for LHD vehicles as well. This accumulates dirt and moisture so can be rusty.
The rear chassis cross member - between the side rails where it drops down check the front, rear and underneath, particularly if there is a tow plate or draw bar fitted.

Deduct at least $500 if there is noticable chassis/firewall rust.

Also check the second and third chassis cross members for damage. These are the ones under the clutch housing and gearbox. This will indicate how hard a life the vehicle has had.

Check for free-play backlash in both front and rear prop shafts. this will indicate the condition of the diff and wear on the axles etc.

Check how straight the panels are. Good straight ones can be hard to find and reproduction panels from the UK can be a few hundred dollars to land here in Oz.

PTO winches on Series 1 vehicles are usually retro-fits in the 1960's and 1970's and always after market.

If you do go ahead there is a very active Series 1 scene in Melbourne so contact the LROCV S1 Register. ;)

C Ya :)
Diana

[gromit]

Thanks Garrycol & Diana,

I'll have a better look at the weekend and check out the points you've raised.

Last roadworthy was about 6 years ago when purchased by it's current (2nd) owner, PTO winch was apparently fitted from new.


Gromit

[Lotz-A-Landies]

... ...PTO winch was apparently fitted from new. ... Gromit
Gromit

If that is true about the PTO winch being fitted from new. Are we talking about a capstan which, which are in fact a type of PTO winch or are we talking about a PTO powered drum winch? (What I was thinking)

If it is the later, I would love to see a couple of pics as these were very rare on Series 1 Landies?

C Ya
Diana

[JDNSW]

Gromit

If that is true about the PTO winch being fitted from new. Are we talking about a capstan which, which are in fact a type of PTO winch or are we talking about a PTO powered drum winch? (What I was thinking)

If it is the later, I would love to see a couple of pics as these were very rare on Series 1 Landies?

C Ya
Diana

I think we'd all love to see some pictures anyway - I hope you are taking a camera!

John

[gromit]

Diana,

Yes it's a capstan winch, will take some photos.

Hope the guy is still keen on selling as I got the distinct impression he really wanted to keep it. He had only fired it up a few times over the last year to use the welder around his property.

Regards, Gromit

[gromit]

Looks like I'm now the owner of a Series 1 !

Picture of the welder (mounted under the seats is attached) not 60A, need to check the rating plate to confirm amperage. Voltmeter for the welder above the dashboard, a knob at the back of the vehicle controls the amperage

Very straight panels, virtually no chassis rust (surface rust only). One of the leafspring packs was badly rusted & spread apart but sale included 2 reco leaf springs. Has a coilover conversion to front & rear springs.

First owner has made lots of mods. Vents on drivers side are where kero fridge & stove were mounted. Even has a little door and sight glass for lighting the fridge from outside. Several lockers/cupboards in the rear, a single bed that extends across the front & middle seats (will take photos to explain), flywire screens that fit into sliding windows. There is a canvas awning that fits on the rear of the hardtop (current owner has never used this). On the rear of the body are mountings for oxygen & acetylene bottles.
Hardtop is a bit soft in a few places so needs some attention
The first owner was allegedly a contractor on the Snowy Project (not sure about this) and set the vehicle up for working away from home. Turns out that the current owner has had the vehicle for close to 15 years and bought it from the original owner who was in his 80's.

Drove well, brakes need some attention but otherwise looks like it could make it to Cooma next year.........

Gromit

[ellard]

Hi there

Nice buy and its money well spent - I am no expert when it comes to the early series ones but it still amazes me with the versitility of these early vehicles.

I would suspect the welder would be a low amperage unit - I love the way its hooked up with the PTO driving the welder & a cooling fan (via belts) - would suspect it would generate a fair bit of heat from under the vehicle when welding. I have seen another very simular to this "wrecked" - located north of Leigh Creek SA (but in a series II)

But truley another unique peice of Land Rover history - great buy indeed.

As for the 80" welder there is one in Adelaide - awaiting restoration.

All the best

PS see you at cooma

Wayne

[JDNSW]

Looks like a good and very interesting buy!

I would just about bet that the "welder' is actually a disposals aircraft generator - and is that a forge blower he has rigged up to provide forced ventilation?

Definitely not a "Landrover" welder installation.

I would hope to see it restored to its original contractor set up rather than as an "ordinary" S1. It would be interesting to try and track down some of its original history, but it does look like the sort of thing that may well have been used in the early Snowy days.

John

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Have to agree with Wayne and John

This one is definitely an interesting unit, worthy of restoration just for it's unique status. :):):)

C Ya
Diana

[easo]

Front two belts come off the PTO, but the third on the smaller pully whats it hooked to?

Easo

[JDNSW]

Front two belts come off the PTO, but the third on the smaller pulley whats it hooked to?

Easo

Blower to cool the welding generator.

John

[gromit]

Drove it home last weekend, small amount of smoke when accelerating and I need to get used to the lack of synchro on second gear !?
Had to plan braking well ahead, the brakes need overhauling but also maybe I am more used to modern brakes.
First priority was getting under cover. Made a timber frame on the roofrack and put a tarp over it (this way the tarp doesn't rub against the body).

A couple of other features not previously listed.
Has a lift up roof hatch with flywires that fit into the two openings.
Also has a second fuel tank under the back.

Will post some more pictures this weekend.

A couple of questions relating to getting it to a usable condition....

I always assumed the hardtop was aluminium, but it is plywood covered with fabric of some sort. The top half of the rear door needs replacing/rebuilding and several areas are soft so it will need some repairs. Any tips on restoring the hardtop ?

What colour should the chassis be on a '56 ? Looks like it was black (mostly rusted) but the rear cross member is a pale yellow colour although the paint is badly faded.

Should the wheels be body coloured on a '56 ?

Many thanks,

Gromit

[UncleHo]

G'day Grommet :)

Plywood covered with Canvas;) that is an old coach building method, whoever built the body definately knew what he was doing, was seen in early postwar commercial bodies, and top of the range custom English body saloons. RR,Bentley.

cheers

[JDNSW]

........
A couple of questions relating to getting it to a usable condition....

1. I always assumed the hardtop was aluminium, but it is plywood covered with fabric of some sort. The top half of the rear door needs replacing/rebuilding and several areas are soft so it will need some repairs. Any tips on restoring the hardtop ?

2. What colour should the chassis be on a '56 ? Looks like it was black (mostly rusted) but the rear cross member is a pale yellow colour although the paint is badly faded.

3. Should the wheels be body coloured on a '56 ?

Many thanks,

Gromit

1. Similar to most aircraft from the beginnings to the thirties, this was a not uncommon method for building wooden car bodies and boats, either using ply that was not too waterproof, or planks that leaked in the joins and waterproofed with a covering of painted canvas. When restoring this it is worth noting that both the paint under the canvas and the paint soaking the canvas is certainly lead paint, so care is needed when working on it. Repairing/restoring the top would be cabinet making work plus finish of canvas. It would be worth either talking to a specialist in wooden boat building or get hold of an older book on boat building or repairing.

2. Black

3. yes, unless my memory has faded, although if it had a non standard body colour, perhaps when the wooden hardtop was added, the wheels may not have been repainted.

John

[gromit]

Was the LR hardtop originally canvas covered ply or is this an aftermarket one ?
This one looks professionally made and you can see where there was originally a window on the drivers side (where the louvred vent is now fitted).



Gromit

[gromit]

Have attached a couple of extra pictures.
One addition I forgot to mention is an extra gearlever, need to get underneath to determine what exactly it does.
In the rear view the control for the welder output is under the Land Rover badge. There are several brackets at the back I have yet to work out, but I did like the step that swings down with the lower half of the rear door.
I added the timber on the roofrack to support a tarp. The roofrack has been designed to take boat. The arms have a lip at one side and the front is narrower than the rear and angled to match the bow profile.

Should get a chance to work on it this weekend depending on the weather....


Gromit

[JDNSW]

The hardtop looks as if it is either a modified standard one (e.g. the ribs on the roof) or is copied from a standard one.

The extra gear lever is interesting, the obvious use is to operate the PTO for the welder, but it will be easy to check this. The standard PTO operation was through a hatch in the centre seat box.

The curved brackets on the back look as if they are designed to hold something round, sitting on the brackets above the tail lights, but they look too short a space for oxy/acetylene cylinders and too big a radius of curvature .

All in all it looks like a very interesting vehicle, in quite good condition and well worthy of restoration and preservation. As I mentioned above, it would be worthwhile trying to get some history of it while there may be people who know still alive.

John

[gromit]

John,

The PTO is operated by a knob under the seat (near the handbrake).
Previous owner had forgotten what the extra lever was for but mentioned that it was the first owner that fitted it.
The brackets above the tail lights look like there was something that latched into them to create a shelf. Previous owner suggested it was a mounting for oxygen & acetylene bottles (the stubby ones) although from memory the bottles are different diameters.

Could you confirm that the original LR hardtop was fabric covered ply ?

Thanks,


Gromit

[JDNSW]

John,

The PTO is operated by a knob under the seat (near the handbrake).
Previous owner had forgotten what the extra lever was for but mentioned that it was the first owner that fitted it.
The brackets above the tail lights look like there was something that latched into them to create a shelf. Previous owner suggested it was a mounting for oxygen & acetylene bottles (the stubby ones) although from memory the bottles are different diameters.

Could you confirm that the original LR hardtop was fabric covered ply ?

Thanks,


Gromit

No. The original hardtop on Series 1s was made from aluminium. If that one is made entirely from fabric covered ply, I suggest that it is a copy.

If you have read any of the books by Barbara Toy (drove all over the world by herself in the fifties) there is another example of a wooden hardtop, but it did not look anything like a standard one. There was an article on her Landrover (now restored) in an LRO a year or two ago.

John

[ellard]

But you have yourself a unique vehicle - well done indeed.

Wayne

[gromit]

Have managed to track down the original owners granson.

I found rego paperwork dating back to the secondhand car dealer in Pakenham who sold it to the previous owner about 12 years ago. Called in to the dealer and he remembered the vehicle, even remembered the name of the guy I got it from. Anyway he gave me the name of the person he sold it for.
Drove to the other side of Pakenham and met the original owners granson who was blown away by the fact that I live in the next suburb to him and thet the vehicle is still around and is unchanged (just a little more worn out) than when he sold it.

Turns out the vehicle wasn't used on the Snowy project (was always a bit suspicious about this claim) the original owner was an engineer & welder. He fitted the generator, built the hardtop, installed the bed etc.etc. Cutouts on the back of the hardtop were for water containers, roofrack was designed to take a tinny for trips down to the Bemm river.

Granson offered to help work on the car (he is a mechanic by trade) and asked for first dibs if I wish to sell it. Will take the car down for him to see soon and try and fill in a bit more of it's history. Unfortunately no photos of it's earlier life......


Colin

[JDNSW]

Thanks for filling us in on the update. Much appreciated.

As mentioned above, you have a unique bit of history, in pretty much original condition.

John

[graceysdad]

Good score!

[ellard]

Thanks for filling us in on the update. Much appreciated.

As mentioned above, you have a unique bit of history, in pretty much original condition.



Same as John said - are you taking it to Cooma

All the best

Wayne

[gromit]

Have booked it in to Cooma (have also booked the Defender in as a backup !).
Planning a steady drive over 2 days to get there and the same on the way back. Rear main oil seal is leaking so I'll be rustproofing the rear part of the chassis during the trip.
Still have quite a bit of work to do, mainly replacing anything rubber because it has perished, wiring is badly cracked in places so will fit a fire extinguisher just in case......
Amazed that most of the oil seals I've replaced were leather, UJ's had cork seals, sliding joint on propshaft had a cork seal. The last owner used it for firewood collection and the odd welding job over his 12 years of ownership, repaired things as they broke but otherwise it is as the original owners grandson sold it.

See you at Cooma.

Colin

[JDNSW]

Have booked it in to Cooma (have also booked the Defender in as a backup !).
Planning a steady drive over 2 days to get there and the same on the way back. Rear main oil seal is leaking so I'll be rustproofing the rear part of the chassis during the trip.
Still have quite a bit of work to do, mainly replacing anything rubber because it has perished, wiring is badly cracked in places so will fit a fire extinguisher just in case......
Amazed that most of the oil seals I've replaced were leather, UJ's had cork seals, sliding joint on propshaft had a cork seal. The last owner used it for firewood collection and the odd welding job over his 12 years of ownership, repaired things as they broke but otherwise it is as the original owners grandson sold it.

See you at Cooma.

Colin

Good to hear that you will have it at Cooma. Leather oil seals are in some ways preferable, so I hope you are not replacing them just because they are leather.

John

[bobslandies]

I always assumed the hardtop was aluminium, but it is plywood covered with fabric of some sort. The top half of the rear door needs replacing/rebuilding and several areas are soft so it will need some repairs. Any tips on restoring the hardtop ?
Gromit

Hi Gromit,
What a great find - a working Land Rover that's still very original.

For hints on restoring woodwork and the canvas covered hardtop you can look on the Australian Vintage Caravan site:
Welcome to Vintage Caravans (http://www.vintagecaravans.com/)

particularly the Technical Stuff Board:
Vintage Caravans - Technical Stuff (http://vintagecaravans.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=technicalstuffboard)

For information on canvas covered plywood caravan restoration look here:
Vintage Caravans - Canvas roof (http://vintagecaravans.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=technicalstuffboard&action=display&thread=1202300499)

Just ask "Reddo" or "cobber" a question - these guys are the experts on bondwood vans. They had a great display at the NRMA Motorfest on Australia Day. They will certainly be interested and "Reddo" has owned Land Rovers in the past.
Regards,
Bob

[gromit]

NM,

Towing it behind the Defender would be far too easy....
The father-in-law who is 70 will be sharing the driving with me and it should be a great 'road trip'. We just hope that we don't spend part of it sitting in the cab of a tilt-tray heading back home.

Have booked an appointment at the chiropractor for when we get back !


Colin

[DiscoDave]

Congratulations on your purchase Colin. Your Landy looks fascinating!:)

[gromit]

Bobslandies,

Have only just checked out the caravan links, thanks for those.

I plan to carry out some repairs and repaint the roof before Cooma. I read on a boatbuilding website that rubberised paint is used but I guess if acrylic has the flexibility it would be OK. Just need to get in mixed in Limestone and find some time to do the job.......

Colin

[gromit]

Figured out what the extra gearlever (beside high/low range lever) is for.

Push down Yellow selector for 4WD, extra gearlever drops back and 4WD selected. Push extra gearstick forward and Yellow selector pops up and it drops back into 2WD.

Original owner must have got fed up with switching between 2WD & 4WD and back again.
Spoke with his grandson again the other day and apparently he was often at Frankston boat ramp plus he regularly towed vehicles back to his workshop. Odometer has stopped working but it was mainly used locally so the mileage wouldn't have been that high.


Colin