Diesel vs Petrol

[Aedo]

OK - first post! Looking to buy my first Landrover - a D3.

Looking to buy an SE and trying to figure out whether or not to pay the extra for the diesel (which I figure will save me ~$1k per year in fuel costs).

It seems that the current dealer price of the petrol SE ($63,990) is not unreasonable (when compared against second hand costs).

Thoughts??

Many thanks,
Aedo
Perth

[WhiteD3]

Aedo,

There's a couple of threads on this subject if you want to do a search but in summary:

Everyone wants the diesel.
Almost all hesitate re the 10K+ price diff.
Around town I get 15.6 while a mate of mine with the TDV6 gets 12.6.
3-4 l/100km diff makes for a very long payback.
Some would argue that resale is a big factor in favour of the TDV6.
The TDV6 has better range than the petrol.

Personally, I think 64k for the V6SE is excellent value. I've had mine for 6 months and love it.

Cheers,

Mark

[Blknight.aus]

ID go diesel but mainly because the characteristics of a diesel engine more suits my driving style than the newer petrol engines do. The fact that diesel is now more expensive that petrol in most places goes a long way to tip the inital purchase back in favor of petrol. Once upon a time when diesel was a lot cheaper than petrol you could save the difference in purchase price in about 3 years, now it takes a lot longer.


If you can get the dealer to authorise having an LPG system fitted and covered/serviced as part of your new car warrenty Id be mighty tempted to go petrol.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

When the going gets tough the difference in consumption of the petrol will be much greater. Also when the going gets tough often fuel can be hard to find ;)

[Will]

Depending on how long you will keep the D3 will help your decision on the diesel. With careful driving I am getting figures fluctuating from around 10.3 to 10.7 for highway driving from my diesel. Usually sitting on 100 to 110 depending on speed limits and using cruise control.
City driving seem to show 11.6 to 11.9 occasionally up to 12.2 when pushing it hard. I am however a conservative driver in city traffic.

[HSVRangie]

Do the sums.

Petrol SE 65k onroad
Diesel SE 81K onroad

Service to 108k
Petrol $2582.00
Diesel $3364.00

Resale proberly not 15k in it.

If you do less than 25k a year hard to justify diesel.

Reason to own diesel. you want the range available.

Michael.

[chosen]

I have had both Diesel and Petrol 4x4's and I will in future only go for diesel...

* Better range out of the tank
* Lower flash point... ie: less likely to explode
* Lower engine/exhaust temperature so less likely to start fires in the scrub
* Torque curve is much lower and where it is needed for more serious 4x4ing
* Doesn't really evaporate if there is a leak in ya Jerry can
* More kms out of your engine
* Better for water crossings
Anything else I missed?

Mate, a diesel is the go!!!

Chosen

[Aedo]

Cheers All,

I do have significant experience with other diesel 4x4s and understand the general preference for diesel - but economically the diesel really doesn't cut it (as per HSVRangie's comments - my calcs were similar). Mark - thanks for your specific fuel figures for petrol vs diesel - your petrol figure is better than I used!

On a performance basis the petrol one seems marginally quicker on road (haven't had a chance to test drive either yet) and I imagine will be more than adequate off road (despite noteably lower torque than the diesel). The range and fuel availablilty issues are very good points and I will give that some more thought - as we have small kids we don't tend to travel too far off the beaten track.

I guess I am really seeking to find if there is a "fatal flaw" in the current petrol SE price but it doesn't seem so :) Hopefully will find the right vehicle very soon!

Many thanks for your help - I'll be back looking for places to take it now!!

Cheers
Aedo

[RonMcGr]

One other thing to look at.
The V6TD is a special engine, from Jaguar, developed and toughened by Land Rover. It will be expensive to repair or replace.

From what I've heard, the V6 petrol is similar to the Jaguar S Type and there are plenty of those around, at good prices :)

[cartm58]

i often wonder about people thinking processes your about to layout $60,000 plus to buy a car that will lose 20% in first year value due to government taxes, depreciation and market values for the vehicle and your worrying about the fuel pump economy between diesel and petrol versions of the vehicle.

If you were concerned about value for money you wouldnt buy a new 4wd in the first place, spend $20, 000 to $30,000 and get a second hand series 2 with all the fruit and put the $40,000 plus savings into shares or your superannuation.

[WhiteD3]

i often wonder about people thinking processes your about to layout $60,000 plus to buy a car that will lose 20% in first year value due to government taxes, depreciation and market values for the vehicle and your worrying about the fuel pump economy between diesel and petrol versions of the vehicle.

If you were concerned about value for money you wouldn't buy a new 4wd in the first place, spend $20, 000 to $30,000 and get a second hand series 2 with all the fruit and put the $40,000 plus savings into shares or your superannuation.

...yes but then he wouldn't have all the techno-wizardry to play with and think of all the D1/2/Series/Defender drivers who'd missed out on seeing (hoping) a nice shiny new D3 get stuck/scratched on the next club outing.

I know, I've seen the looks :angel: but they've been disappointed to date :D

[p38arover]

One other thing to look at.
The V6TD is a special engine, from Jaguar, developed and toughened by Land Rover. It will be expensive to repair or replace.

From what I've heard, the V6 petrol is similar to the Jaguar S Type and there are plenty of those around, at good prices :)

I thought the TDV6 was a Peugeot motor and the V6 petrol a Ford Explorer motor.

Ron

[HSVRangie]

Cheers All,

I do have significant experience with other diesel 4x4s and understand the general preference for diesel - but economically the diesel really doesn't cut it (as per HSVRangie's comments - my calcs were similar). Mark - thanks for your specific fuel figures for petrol vs diesel - your petrol figure is better than I used!

On a performance basis the petrol one seems marginally quicker on road (haven't had a chance to test drive either yet) and I imagine will be more than adequate off road (despite noteably lower torque than the diesel). The range and fuel availablilty issues are very good points and I will give that some more thought - as we have small kids we don't tend to travel too far off the beaten track.

I guess I am really seeking to find if there is a "fatal flaw" in the current petrol SE price but it doesn't seem so :) Hopefully will find the right vehicle very soon!

Many thanks for your help - I'll be back looking for places to take it now!!

Cheers
Aedo

Buy the petrol. use $$ to
Fit kaymar rear bar with wheel carrier-s.
fit bull bar and winch.
fit long range tank.range solved.

starts to make sense.

Michael.

[HSVRangie]

I thought the TDV6 was a Peugeot motor and the V6 petrol a Ford Explorer motor.

Ron

correct

[gethro]

Another option is to look at a demo model as opposed to brand new. Thats what I did and saved nearly 15K off the list price :cool:

[p38arover]

i often wonder about people thinking processes your about to layout $60,000 plus to buy a car that will lose 20% in first year value due to government taxes, depreciation and market values for the vehicle and your worrying about the fuel pump economy between diesel and petrol versions of the vehicle.

If you were concerned about value for money you wouldnt buy a new 4wd in the first place, spend $20, 000 to $30,000 and get a second hand series 2 with all the fruit and put the $40,000 plus savings into shares or your superannuation.

That's why I'm working the engine in my P38A. It's a lot cheaper than upgrading and, besides, where would I get a car as well equipped as the HSE RR for the money.

I made the mistake of selling my last RR which was all set up for off-roading (LR tank, MaxiDrive, 4.6 engine on LPG, winch bar and winch, driving lights, rear bar, roof rack, drawers, radios, diff guards, etc.) and buying the P38A which had nothing - and still isn't set up properly.

Ron

[drivesafe]

Hi Aedo and welcome to AULRO.

As to your choice, when my wife bought her V6 SE D3 two years ago we looked at all the pros and cons for both the V6 and the TDV6 and at that time the difference was only $8,000 and even this difference did not justify the presumed advantages for a diesel over a petrol.

Add to the fact that the D3’s TDV6 is a dog compered to the V6 and I can’t understand why it is.

I have the straight 6 Diesel in my Rangie and it floors the wife’s V6 and the wife’s V6 floors a TDV6 D3.

The one and only advantage the diesel has over the petrol, as mentioned above, is the range per tank full and for a fraction of the difference in cost between the V6 and TDV6, you can fit a larger tank to a V6.

Cheers.

[Aedo]

Hi Aedo and welcome to AULRO.

As to your choice, when my wife bought her V6 SE D3 two years ago we looked at all the pros and cons for both the V6 and the TDV6 and at that time the difference was only $8,000 and even this difference did not justify the presumed advantages for a diesel over a petrol.

Add to the fact that the D3’s TDV6 is a dog compered to the V6 and I can’t understand why it is.

I have the straight 6 Diesel in my Rangie and it floors the wife’s V6 and the wife’s V6 floors a TDV6 D3.

The one and only advantage the diesel has over the petrol, as mentioned above, is the range per tank full and for a fraction of the difference in cost between the V6 and TDV6, you can fit a larger tank to a V6.

Cheers.

Thanks drivesafe! This is really the answer I was looking for!!


Buy the petrol. use $$ to
Fit kaymar rear bar with wheel carrier-s.
fit bull bar and winch.
fit long range tank.range solved.

starts to make sense.

Michael.

Makes very good sense!!

Thanks

[RonMcGr]

I thought the TDV6 was a Peugeot motor and the V6 petrol a Ford Explorer motor.

Ron

Ron,

Check out: http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/industry/2005/6070.asp

Jaguar's V8 Diesel

by David Morgan (11 May 05)
<snip>
This autumn, the current XJ flagship gains the 2.7-litre V6TD engine already used in the latest S-Type and Land Rover's new Discovery and Range Rover Sport.
<snip>
Although the twin-turbo 206bhp 2.7TD in the S-Type and the 193bhp single turbocharged 2.7TDV6 in Discovery are well-suited to their tasks, there's no denying the market needs a Jaguar/Land Rover TDV8 for prestige XJ models, Ranger Rover and the Sport.
<snip>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Discovery

"The engines used in the Discovery 3 were all taken from Land Rover's sister company, Jaguar. A 2.7-litre, 195 horsepower (145 kW) V6 diesel engine (the TdV6) was intended to be the biggest seller in Europe. For the US-market and as the high-performance option elsewhere, a 4.4 litre petrol V8 of 300 horsepower (223 kW) was chosen. A 216 horsepower 4.0-litre sohc V6 petrol engine taken from the Ford stable was available in North America and Australia. Before launch, there were rumours that Land Rover may introduce the diesel unit to the American market, but the use of high-sulphur diesel fuel there, for which the TdV6 is not designed, made this fitment unlikely."

As far as I'm aware, Landrover are still using Jaguar engines and next year the Ford Falcon will have the new Jaguar 5 litre V8 :)

Cheers,
Ron

[Aedo]

Another option is to look at a demo model as opposed to brand new. Thats what I did and saved nearly 15K off the list price :cool:
Will be looking at that option for sure - I have never bought a new car before as I have always been able to find a great 1yr old deal!! At this point though it is more about availability (only two second hand ones currently on the market in Perth :()


i often wonder about people thinking processes your about to layout $60,000 plus to buy a car that will lose 20% in first year value due to government taxes, depreciation and market values for the vehicle and your worrying about the fuel pump economy between diesel and petrol versions of the vehicle.

If you were concerned about value for money you wouldnt buy a new 4wd in the first place, spend $20, 000 to $30,000 and get a second hand series 2 with all the fruit and put the $40,000 plus savings into shares or your superannuation.
Buying an old vehicle doesn't necessarily mean value for money. There is no difference between spending $10k or $100k - you still need to do your research and get best value for the dollars spent. I am researching both new and used and currently I am not seeing a 20% first year loss on D3s! But thank you for your concern!

[HSVRangie]

Ron,

Check out: http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/industry/2005/6070.asp

Jaguar's V8 Diesel

by David Morgan (11 May 05)
<snip>
This autumn, the current XJ flagship gains the 2.7-litre V6TD engine already used in the latest S-Type and Land Rover's new Discovery and Range Rover Sport.
<snip>
Although the twin-turbo 206bhp 2.7TD in the S-Type and the 193bhp single turbocharged 2.7TDV6 in Discovery are well-suited to their tasks, there's no denying the market needs a Jaguar/Land Rover TDV8 for prestige XJ models, Ranger Rover and the Sport.
<snip>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Discovery

"The engines used in the Discovery 3 were all taken from Land Rover's sister company, Jaguar. A 2.7-litre, 195 horsepower (145 kW) V6 diesel engine (the TdV6) was intended to be the biggest seller in Europe. For the US-market and as the high-performance option elsewhere, a 4.4 litre petrol V8 of 300 horsepower (223 kW) was chosen. A 216 horsepower 4.0-litre sohc V6 petrol engine taken from the Ford stable was available in North America and Australia. Before launch, there were rumours that Land Rover may introduce the diesel unit to the American market, but the use of high-sulphur diesel fuel there, for which the TdV6 is not designed, made this fitment unlikely."

As far as I'm aware, Landrover are still using Jaguar engines and next year the Ford Falcon will have the new Jaguar 5 litre V8 :)

Cheers,
Ron


Diesel engines were develpoed by ford and PSA .

PSA is Peugeot/Citroen Group.
Michael.

[RonMcGr]

Diesel engines were develpoed by ford and PSA .

PSA is Peugeot/Citroen Group.
Michael.

True, to a point.
While the first two phases of the project were led by PSA Peugeot Citroën, Phase 3 was led by Ford Motor Company. This was the production of a high performance V6 six-cylinder 24-valve unit, announced in June 2003. The first product to benefit from this engine was the Jaguar S-Type, followed by the Peugeot 607. Since then, it has also been installed in the Land Rover Discovery, Range Rover Sport and the new Jaguar XJ and will be fitted in the Peugeot 407 Coupe and the Citroën C6 when both cars are launched on the market.

Of couse we all know what companies Ford own.

I know it is splitting hairs, however The French make small engines now. Larger engines in Citroen/Peugoet, usually came from another company, Maserati in a version om the Citroen V6 SM and Volvo in the earlier (PVR) Peugoet V6.

Being in the QLD Jaguar Drivers Club, I get to hear all things to do with Land Rover, Jaguar.

[stevo68]

Forget the V6 and the TDV6 and join the lonely but elusive V8 club :cool:. Mine gets about 14.3-14.6/ 100kms, so on average over 500kms to a tank. I have received costings on a 115 litre auxillary tank with the current 85litres giving me 200litres, bobs ya uncle,

Regards

Stevo

[Aedo]

Forget the V6 and the TDV6 and join the lonely but elusive V8 club :cool:. Mine gets about 14.3-14.6/ 100kms, so on average over 500kms to a tank. I have received costings on a 115 litre auxillary tank with the current 85litres giving me 200litres, bobs ya uncle,

Regards

Stevo

Mmmm:cool: Like that idea!

Not so sure SWMBO will like the price though!

[WhiteD3]

Forget the V6 and the TDV6 and join the lonely but elusive V8 club :cool:. Mine gets about 14.3-14.6/ 100kms, so on average over 500kms to a tank. I have received costings on a 115 litre auxillary tank with the current 85litres giving me 200litres, bobs ya uncle,

Regards

Stevo

Stevo,

Where does the aux tank fit and how much?

Cheers.

[RonMcGr]

Has anyone got the twin long range tanks fitted?

Those that fit in the centre on both sides.

Cheers,
Ron

[stevo68]

Stevo,

Where does the aux tank fit and how much?

Cheers. Hey mate, first you would need a rear wheel carrier, there is a full length rear bar like mine or there is another mob that just does the rear wheel carrier. THe aux tank replaces the current spare space. Price so far is about $1394 + $240 for fitting,

Regards

Stevo

[BigJon]

Has anyone got the twin long range tanks fitted?

Those that fit in the centre on both sides.

Cheers,
Ron

In a Disco 3? The standard fuel tank is already on the drivers side and from memory there isn't room on the passengers side.

[RonMcGr]

In a Disco 3? The standard fuel tank is already on the drivers side and from memory there isn't room on the passengers side.

Sorry, D1 :)

[LoveMyV8County]

... spend $20, 000 to $30,000 and get a second hand series 2 with all the fruit and put the $40,000 plus savings into shares or your superannuation.

It comes back to the same equation anyway - buy a V8 Series II and get incredible value for money (but difficult resale) or pay a $5K to $10K premium and buy a diesel Series II (with its list of faults such as oil in the wiring harness, tendency to overheat and crack heads, etc).

I'm an accountant. I've done the maths before, and the premium price of diesels seldom makes financial sense unless you are keeping the car for *well* over 100,000km. LPG is the way to go if the D3 can use it(?).

IMHO the only real reasons to buy diesels are:
- significant off-road
- significant towing
- long term ownership

Despite better fuel economy, I'm unconvinced that the diesels are better for the planet than gas-guzzling petrol V8s or V6s. Those nasty particulates worry me...

Chris

[mittadisco]

It comes back to the same equation anyway - buy a V8 Series II and get incredible value for money (but difficult resale)

Despite better fuel economy, I'm unconvinced that the diesels are better for the planet than gas-guzzling petrol V8s or V6s. Those nasty particulates worry me...

Chris

1. what model price should one be looking at for a V8 Disco? Auto/manual?

2. Which is better for the environment? Petrol or diesel motors? Europeans still love their diesels... and what of global use of oil - diesel will surely save? genuine q - I just haven't looked into it...

[HSVRangie]

1. what model price should one be looking at for a V8 Disco? Auto/manual?

2. Which is better for the environment? Petrol or diesel motors? Europeans still love their diesels... and what of global use of oil - diesel will surely save? genuine q - I just haven't looked into it...

euros love diesels they get long range. not needed but petrol is over $2.00 litre.

Michael.

[Aedo]

1. what model price should one be looking at for a V8 Disco? Auto/manual?

2. Which is better for the environment? Petrol or diesel motors? Europeans still love their diesels... and what of global use of oil - diesel will surely save? genuine q - I just haven't looked into it...

There no manual V8 Disco3 available so that's an easy question to answer:)

And the Europeans love diesel because it is more efficient (and therefore cheaper) and because it costs less than petrol (again therefore cheaper!)

As for diesel vs petrol in terms of global efficiency, greenhouse gas emissions etc – diesel is better (low sulphur versions anyway) as it is less refined (therefore less energy input) and it is more efficient so less CO2 total emissions… but is it the global saviour? No

[LoveMyV8County]

1. what model price should one be looking at for a V8 Disco? Auto/manual?

Will vary depending on year and kms. I'd look at the news.com.au classifieds (can access Red Book values from there if you click on Sell My Car), carsales.com.au and your local rag. I've never owned one but if I did I would probably choose the auto.

Example from the Red Book:

2000 LAND ROVER DISCOVERY

II 00.5MY Wagon 4dr Man 5sp 4x4 4.0i 740kg (Rel. Jan)
Average kilometres 140,000 - 170,000
Price range - private sale* $10,800 - $13,700
Price range - trade-in $8,100 - $9,500
Price when new $45,463
Red Book code LAND00AG
Keep this code for your finance/insurance company.

II 00.5MY Wagon 4dr Td5 Auto 4sp 4x4 2.5DT 692kg (Rel. Jan)
Average kilometres 140,000 - 170,000
Price range - private sale* $13,700 - $17,000
Price range - trade-in $10,500 - $12,200
Price when new $49,314
Red Book code LAND00AM
Keep this code for your finance/insurance company.

* Important note: Dealers' retail prices will be higher than these private sale prices because they must prepare a vehicle thoroughly, both mechanically and aesthetically, and they provide a warranty.



2. Which is better for the environment? Petrol or diesel motors? Europeans still love their diesels... and what of global use of oil - diesel will surely save? genuine q - I just haven't looked into it...

Let's see if I can set the cat among the pigeons here... not trying to hijack your thread Aedo but it does fit the title.

"... particulate pollution (is) the 'new asbestos' for its ability to cause serious illness and death."
http://www.dotars.gov.au/roads/F3toM7Review/pdf/SUBMISSION_8-Attachment_7.pdf
(Oh no! That's a pic of a D3 at the end of the doc!!) :o

In no more than 100 words, discuss...

[mittadisco]

Thanks LMC.

So diesel enines should not be driven by people who spend most of their time in cities. For those living in thecountry - well keep up using a diesel. Diesel should be used if you want to reduce your CO2 print. Having been many times to Delhi - I'd much rather diesel wasn't used - talk about diesel pollution!

Diesel Fuel Primer (http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/big_rig_cleanup/life-of-soot-diesel-pollution-emissions-and-health-effects.html)
"A Costly Journey
In the end, soot travels far and wide to affect thousands of communities and millions of people, including you and your family. It begins in the combustion of an engine and ends up in the innermost reaches of individuals' lungs. Society pays a heavy price for soot's journey. Billions of dollars in health care costs, the loss of work and school days, and the loss of human lives create an enormous burden for society to shoulder. This burden is not a necessary one, however, as it can be lifted from off our backs with the help of stricter air regulations and cleaner engine technology."

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Each litre of petrol burnt generates 2.3kg of co2. Each litre of diesel burnt generates 2.7kg. LPG is 1.5kg.

Diesel can lower your carbon footprint, but it would depend on what you were doing.

Also not that most diesels being used now in passenger cars have cats and particulate filters. :)

[Aedo]

OK - decided on petrol. Now just have to wait until they build it.

Thanks for all your input!!!